What are "luxuries" in the ship design?

[far-trader]

Much good advice and thought there CosmicGamer, thanks

...Side note: IMO, to have all those 'luxuries' on your custom liner without allocating additional space for it means something else is lacking. Not enough space allocated to life support, power distribution, access ways and whatnot. Did you allocate more space to make less cramped staterooms?

Nope, no scrimping, just good planning of access to share as much as possible. With enough staterooms that 1ton per of unallocated space* adds up.

My method is of the 4tons there are:

2tons actual stateroom, a bit cramped but doable, and joining two together (simple, easy, if adjacent) creates a very comfortable suite.

1ton of access space (typically) which as a hallway can be shared by two staterooms (gaining 1ton back for other common spaces) or as opened onto shared common space (gaining back 2tons for that common space). You can lose some if your staterooms are off by themselves of course.

1ton of common space, for everything else. Like galley, food storage, recreation, etc. Multiply that by 10 staterooms on a small ship and it's serviceable space. Multiply it by 100 staterooms on a large liner and you have some real room to play with.

Life support is (largely) in the overhead/underfloor space of each stateroom imtu.

 

[CosmicGamer]

While the tonnage allocated to staterooms includes air refreshers,
passageways, mess halls, crew lounges and other living space, it
is often cramped and uncomfortable. Luxuries cost Cr. 100,000 per
ton, and make life on board ship more pleasant. Each ton of luxuries
counts as one level of the Steward skill for the purposes of carrying
passengers, and therefore allows a ship to carry middle and high
passage passengers without carrying a trained steward on board.

Per the rules later 1 unit (1ton, Cr100,000) of luxuries is enough to keep 2 high pax or 5 mid pax happy and sane for a week in jump space without a crew person tending to them.

What book, and version of it, and what page are these on? My book has a little bit different wording.

Also, far-trader, you read my previous post while I was editing and adding to it. Not sure if you caught the last part about bots.

 

[far-trader]

What book, and version of it, and what page are these on? My book has a little bit different wording.

The most recent pdf version of the MP Traveller Core Rulebook. At least I'm hoping mine is the most up to date errata corrected version. It'd be silly of them to not have the pdf up to date.

The first bit is a direct full quote of the Luxuries note on page 110.

The second bit was paraphrasing the Steward skill note on page 58:

"Each level, including level 0, of Steward skill allows a character to care for two high passage passengers or five middle passage passengers"

Also, far-trader, you read my previous post while I was editing and adding to it. Not sure if you caught the last part about bots.

Yes I saw your note about adding to it, thanks. I think I was in the process of editing my own post above that with some similar thoughts

 

[Whipsnade]

Gents,

Cosmic Gamer's take on this is the to follow, it's best to generalize with this and not over-think the topic. The cost and volume could represent robots, VR sets, fluffy pillows, fresh vegetables, private dining rooms, or a thousand other things. While Mongoose definitely made a mistake when they presented specific monetary and volume costs in MgT for something as nebulous as "luxuries", we should be used to Mongoose making mistakes by now.

There are also some meta-game concerns at work here, concerns we cannot ignore.

Let's face it, Steward has always been an all but useless skill. In First Three LBB CT it's only official use was that it allowed a ship to carry high passengers and nothing else. You didn't even have to worry about differing levels in the skill, Steward-1 or Steward-10 gave you the same benefit. (If you had a higher level than the other guys on the crew, you got a 10% salary bump per level. Whoopee...twirls finger).

I don't remember if LBB:7 introduced the steward skill DMs for rolls on the passenger tables, but those DMs are in place by MT. MT also finally linked the number of stewards required depended on the total number crew and passengers aboard. Still, a player with Steward skill didn't get to use that skill very often and, when he did, it wasn't used for very much. If a group avoided the High Passenger trade, and I had groups that did just that and only hired NPC stewards when they were forced to, your crew didn't need anyone with Steward skill at all.

IMTU I tried to "involve" the skill in more things. I had Steward serving as Liason minus 1 for example, along with factoring steward skills into crew fatigue levels and overall health. As a GM, I worked with a player with Steward to find ways to utilize the skill in roleplaying and not in just roll playing. Put another way, we found ways to use the skill beyond simply using it to modify die rolls. That's what roleplaying used to be about.

That mindset is something lacking in many current RPG players. You see it in the overly detailed rule sets produced now. Instead of leaving it up to the GM to either craft a solution that works for the GM and their group or ignore as inconsequential, there must be a rule, a table, and a formula now for every foreseeable circumstance.

Another factor behind Mongoose's luxuries rule has to do with the munchkin-like tendencies of many current players. To be sure, there have been munchkins ever since RPGs were created and just what constitutes a munchkin has changed over the years, but games today are closer to munchkin-style games than they were in the 70s and 80s. This style of play both feeds and feeds off skill and skill level inflation. Players today want more skills and more levels in those skill than before. They want to use those skills and levels in "important" ways too.

A skill like Steward which is explicitly described as cooking and caring for high passengers is not something current RPG players want to have. Making matters worse, Steward is vague and rarely used officially in the game. Steward thus has two strikes against it with current RPG players.

Mongoose was realized this and tried to craft a work around. They came up with a way for players to buy their way out of the high passenger requirement. If the players can shell out the necessary money and volume, no one aboard their ship need wait on high passengers. Of course, this removes the built-in hook canny GMs have used for decades to move along campaigns. However, because tables and look-ups have increasingly replaced creativity, allowing players to buy their way out of a crew requirement rule from over 30 years ago isn't necessarily a bad thing.

The game is played differently now, and by different people.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

Why not just ask Mongoose what they were thinking of when they wrote that rule? They must have had at least some vague ideas and done some guesstimates to come up with those costs and volume requirements. I mean, surely they didn't just pull figures out of thin air, the way we did 30 years ago? This isn't 1979, you know. I should hope that we'd learned a few lessons since then!



Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

Why not just ask Mongoose what they were thinking of when they wrote that rule?

Hans,

They've never answered similar questions either here on on their own fora, so why do you think they'll answer one now?

Let me correct that: they'll never provide an actual answer to the question. All we'll get for asking is their usual B.S. about "re-imagining" the game.

They must have had at least some vague ideas and done some guesstimates to come up with those costs and volume requirements. I mean, surely they didn't just pull figures out of thin air, the way we did 30 years ago?

I believe that's exactly what they did. They felt the need to keep the canonical Steward/High Passenger link but also came up with a mechanism to allow players to buy their way out of it. Accordingly they pulled the cost out of thin air. 100,000 credits is neither too high or too low and 1 dTon is a nice round number that fits the ship design system neatly.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

I believe that's exactly what they did. They felt the need to keep the canonical Steward/High Passenger link but also came up with a mechanism to allow players to buy their way out of it. Accordingly they pulled the cost out of thin air. 100,000 credits is neither too high or too low and 1 dTon is a nice round number that fits the ship design system neatly.

You astonish me, Bill, you really do.



Hans

 

[CosmicGamer]

Aslans might have more athletic activities as part of their luxuries, Droyne might have spaces where they can spread their wings and fly.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Different types of ships might consider different things as luxuries. Large passenger liners might have things like what has been mentioned. A safari ship might have a shooting range, a lounge with stuffed and mounted animals, virtual hunts, a museum of weapons.

What other types of ships might have unique styles of luxuries?

 

[Whipsnade]

Different types of ships might consider different things as luxuries. Large passenger liners might have things like what has been mentioned. A safari ship might have a shooting range, a lounge with stuffed and mounted animals, virtual hunts, a museum of weapons.

Cosmic Gamer,

All the more reason to leave to the GM what the term "luxury" specifically means.

If there was an actual intent here, in itself a very large conjecture, I still believe Mongoose wanted to provide a mechanism for players to opt out canonical steward requirements. The skill is odd, vague, little used, and presumably an anathema among current RPG players.


Regards,
Bill

 

[far-trader]

Still fixated on "things" (quite understandably given MP inappropriately calls it "luxuries") rather than "service". It replaces the services of crew person(s), not toys. I do agree the first thing I think of when I see "luxuries" are things, features, doo-dads and gee-gaws. Not a valet, maid, concierge, or the rest of the staff behind making the difference between a pampered stay (High pax) or just a place to sleep and eat (Mid pax).

Let's go back to this for a minute...

Side note: How do you rationalize that a single level 4 steward can care for 25 people. Do they have more arms so that they can do more at once or do they require less sleep than a level 0 steward?

I have no problem seeing one exceedingly competent Steward handling the demands of 25 Mid pax. Heck in CT they had no Steward, and even in MT (iirc) it was 1 Steward to 50 Mid pax (so MPT skill 9 ).

In CT, Mid pax were completely on their own. They got a room and an index card of instructions for using the galley and fresher. If they were lucky maybe they even got a quick safety lecture. Heck on some ships they were probably locked in the passenger area without crew contact the whole week.

In MT they got a little service. Not much though, picture a buffet style evening meal and snack/sandwich trays for breakfast and lunch. If you wanted between meal munchies you'd better hope you packed them yourself. And you're the only one doing your laundry and cleaning your room.

In MPT we seem to have upped the requirements for attention (considerably and apparently pointlessly) of the Steward(s) and then chucked the whole thing out the airlock with little if any thought.

Of course the biggest rationalization of actual high Steward skill is it just won't happen. Will it? How many players/refs are going to have any Steward skill with such a cheap dodge?

I'm with Bill on this, he states the case quite well I think.

And I'd be fine not taking it so literally, if it wasn't so literally spelled out. Leaving it up to individual refs and players used to be fine, but that's not the "new" meme is it? So why didn't they explain it better, or at the very least pick a more appropriate label. It reads as very rushed, un-proofed and un-tested, no real thought behind it at all except "let's dump that stupid Steward skill". Not my sentiment, Stewards are (or can be) interesting. They are (or can be, should be) much more than just cooks and cleaners.

A few whiz bang entertainments aren't going to replace them. Even sophisticated bots won't quite measure up. Some vague 1ton Cr100,000 certainly doesn't say enough about how that does it.

I think "luxuries" are things and features, and should be (have been) detailed and allow higher rates for passage. Not "take care of" passengers. MPT "luxuries" should have been called "servitors" or something and designed (at least a little) with a nod to the books own bot and programming rules.

Or just drop the idea completely. What's wrong with Stewards? If the PCs don't want to be "it" then they can hire. Or commission a bot built to do the job. Or why not have other "luxuries" of 1ton and Cr100,000 to replace the skills of Pilots and Gunners? Oh that's right, those are "cool" skills.

Anyway, part of this is a curiosity of can "luxuries" be added to a ship post construction? Say I get tired of hiring Stewards for my Far-Trader and paying that salary every month, can I convert the now empty stateroom (or some cargo space or wherever, maybe that unused turret control space) or part of it to "luxuries"?

Anyway, I'm probably rambling on and repeating myself as I keep getting distracted while typing this up. I'll probably read it later and wonder who wrote it :nonono:

 

[ThunderChilde]

Okay a few points, Luxuries as I see them in MTU. Really nice carpets, fine woods, designed, soothing lighting and air quality. Fine Corinthian Leather. Fine Dining and a wine cellar/bar. Plush Robes, scented nice things, etc. Robo-servers, Auto-Chef Magnus model. You'll have caught my drift by now. You pay for the finer things, they needn't bulk much more in a ship displacement sense.

Steward, in my game has a number of uses. Cooking, cleaning, knowing that your chlothing looks right and is clean. A Haberdasher/Tailor/Seamstress will have Steward. In my usage, it's common to noncoms and officers. Spit and polish, squared away, Steward-0. Properly turned out NCO on Parade Day, Steward 0-1. Sharply turned out Junior Officer, Steward 0-1. In past games it was used to eliminte evidence, by sanitizing the crime scene.

Picking good food at the market place, steward, essential really. Stewards critical not just in the cooking aspect of 11, 000 worlds of food; but in knowing how to prepare a thing so that its safe to eat is no mean feat. In this it blurs into a key survival skill.

 

[ThunderChilde]

On the whole will they even have steward? Yes, without question, they will unless they use some method of finagling what skills they get. In my current game several characters have it at 1 or higher.

Other uses of Steward, food and wine critic/snob, etc. Think upper class Butler/Maid, lays out clothing, etc., chocolates on the pillow that didn't pop out of a slot.

 

[Whipsnade]

Steward, in my game has a number of uses. Cooking, cleaning, knowing that your chlothing looks right and is clean. A Haberdasher/Tailor/Seamstress will have Steward. In my usage, it's common to noncoms and officers. Spit and polish, squared away, Steward-0. Properly turned out NCO on Parade Day, Steward 0-1. Sharply turned out Junior Officer, Steward 0-1. In past games it was used to eliminte evidence, by sanitizing the crime scene.

Thunderchilde,

All those things are great ways to utilize Steward skill, but how many players would want to roleplay them? They want to be the officer and not the dogsbody who allowed the officer to be sharply turned out.

Sanitizing a crime scene is one thing, but turning out a fine meal during Day 4 in jump for the Emir of Schmoe is something else. (And how many times to you do get to sanitize a crime scene in any RPG outside of Dahmer: The Gathering anyway?)

It was a vague, little used, odd skill 30+ years ago and in these days of skill & level inflation it no longer has even that small niche.


Regards,
Bill

 

[ThunderChilde]

It was used to sub in for the Bureau 13 skill of evidence dispersal. We were on a TL 7 world and the marine with stewrad removed all traces of the team from the two safe houses and the kidnap scene. Additional described steps like disposoving trash in a nearby apartment complex, etc.

 

[Galadrion]

Okay, my take on a few things:

First of all, Steward skill. This is rather more than cooking and passenger maintenance during the jump. The steward is in charge of passenger country: boarding, orientation, safety lectures and procedures, client interface (who are the disgruntled passengers going to complain to - the captain? Not on anything bigger than a tramp, they're not!), and so on. Then, once they're underway, the steward acts as social director/coordinator, tour guide or the equivalent, caterer (which is where the higher skill levels translates into caring for more passengers - believe me, catering a bigger event takes more attention to detail and more skill), passenger services, and so forth. When the ship is in port, the steward is the one who lays in supplies (another skill-intensive facet of the job - budgeting supplies for a variable number of people and functions at varying levels of sophistication over a week's time span is, again, not easy) and coordinates the refurbishing of passenger country - cleaning services, possibly repairs if things got out of hand. Doing that job quickly again takes specialized skill. In addition, Steward skill also includes marketing - it's used as a DM on "recruiting" passengers. So it's not just on-board stuff, nor is it necessarily boring if the referee decides to use the potential in the system.

Second, luxuries themselves. How do they substitute for actual Steward skill? Well, they only do so for the duration of the jump itself. To me, that means in-transit amenities - an entertainment suite/library (think in-flight movies and/or music for modern airlines), kitchen with some degree of automation (or, for the cheaper aspects of it, vending machines - probably more for a dedicate mid-passenger facility), maybe nicer or more luxurious appointments for passenger country. But note that these only apply during jump. Some member of the crew is still going to have to see to boarding, orientation, and safety, and on a ship with no steward, the captain probably will have to deal with the passengers if anything arises. And without a steward, the ship will have to rely on spaceport services for any post-trip upkeep, at concomitant surcharges.

Why would luxuries cost so much in terms of both money and space? Well, money is fairly obvious if it involves better appointments or ancillary equipment - 100 KCr is probably a bit steep for vending machines, but for an autokitchen, entertainment suite, and suitable software, it's not out of line. As for the space, if part of the price includes more luxurious appointments, perhaps some of it is simply an increase in room. A luxury stateroom may actually be two and a half displacements tons instead of the more standard two tons for a regular stateroom (plus the two tons of ancillary space per room in either case). It can also include a degree of automation in in-transit service - valet and laundry, as mentioned elsewhere. For more pedestrian usage (middle passage), it would probably mean a bit more room and quality in the communal spaces, rather than in the staterooms themselves.

Personally, as a player, I've always liked Steward skill. It increases the role-playing opportunities if you approach it the right way, and if you've got a suitably devious outlook, the in-game opportunities can be... lucrative. Once in jump, the steward serves admirably as the ship's procurer...

 

[saundby]

Ditto to what Bill and Galadrion say, firstly.

Making steward interesting takes a different approach on the ref's part than making combat or flight skills interesting. It takes a preparation not just of situations the PCs trigger by entering them, but preparation of NPC characters in the game, and the intrigues, interests, and so on that they are involved with. The stew is the one who has the excuse of hanging out with the passengers, gaining their confidence, seeing the odd items left in cabin, catering to their embarrassing needs, etc., etc. all tied in with the story or stories of the campaign.

Steward skills involve all sorts of "people" skills with lots of opportunities for use both on and off ship. I let it stand in for Streetwise, Admin, Liaison, and other skills in many cases. A steward knows how to work with people, what sorts of needs they have, how to get odd things and deliver them discreetly, anticipate needs, and so on. Steward is the JoT of people, IMC.

If players learn that a skill has value in a game, they'll want it.

The Dumarest books I can think of off the top of my head that provide good examples of why Steward is a useful game skill are Lallia and Mayenne. You'll also find someone with Steward skill in most Harry Harrison stories, though usually not the protagonist they're often his "enabler."

 

[Whipsnade]

First of all, Steward skill. This is rather more than cooking and passenger maintenance during the jump. The steward is in charge of passenger country: boarding, orientation, safety lectures and procedures, client interface (who are the disgruntled passengers going to complain to - the captain? Not on anything bigger than a tramp, they're not!), and so on.

Galadrion,

All that's a given, but how many players in this age of inflated skills and levels in "sexy" areas want to do that during a RPG session? I had enough trouble getting the point across to my players back during the Sparse Skills Era.

When the ship is in port, the steward is the one who lays in supplies...

Again, that's a given and, again, how many players want to do that? How many d20 players actually ship around for rations? A sword, yes, a magic potion, yes, but bacon and bread?

I used to give my players a discount on various supplies depending on how well their steward comparison shopped and even that didn't spice up the skill enough for it's holders.

In addition, Steward skill also includes marketing - it's used as a DM on "recruiting" passengers.

That's been part of the rules since MT at least and most likely LBB:7 before that.

So it's not just on-board stuff, nor is it necessarily boring if the referee decides to use the potential in the system.

Sure, the potential is there but how many GMs use it? I know I did, but I also know I didn't use it as well or as often as I should have. I allowed it to be used as a default for liaison, I roped it into various in-port activities, had it attracting high passengers before MT, allowed it to help maintain the crew's health, routinely used it to create relationships with important NPCs, and my players still complained about being "stuck" with the skill and the job.

It's an RPG. Folks want to shoot stuff and fly things, not shop for eggplants and press pants. The skill is too vague and it's primary uses are indirect. It isn't "sexy" or "active" for most peoples' tastes and most GMs don't know or care how to "tart" it up.

Second, luxuries themselves. How do they substitute for actual Steward skill? Well, they only do so for the duration of the jump itself.

The time spent in jump space generally works out to 70 to 80% of the time spent in the trip. That means those luxuries somehow do most of a steward's work for most of any given trip.

I still think Mongoose was trying to play on both sides of the fence here. They kept Steward and the requirements associated with it in MgT because it's been part of every version for 30+ years while slipping in a rule that would allow MgT GMs and players to buy their way out of those same requirements. Sadly, while well intentioned, their new rule was up to their usual standards.


Regards,
Bill

 

[aramis]

You astonish me, Bill, you really do.



Hans

Hans, when I asked in the playtest, I got NO response. They have been really unwilling to explain their thinking; Gareth wasn't on the boards over there much prior to my internet hiatus.

Gareth seems pretty traveller friendly, but the several of the other staffers have made anti-sci-fi and anti-traveller comments over the last few years... even a few AFTER securing the license.

 

[saundby]

...How many d20 players actually shop around for rations? A sword, yes, a magic potion, yes, but bacon and bread?

It's an RPG. Folks want to shoot stuff and fly things, not shop for eggplants and press pants.

"When you ask for bacon and bread, the grocer looks at you sharply and says, 'Sorry, stranger, you know there's none to be had because of the crisis.' He takes in your spacer overalls, then waves his assistant out of the room. He leans forward and says, 'Look, maybe we can do some business. I hear there's a highborn who's just signed to travel to Aster III. Wouldn't happen to be your ship, would it?' "

"The eggplant display has been vandalized. Graphitti over the display reads 'Die Herzog Scum.' As you stand there, the shopkeeper comes and begins picking smashed eggplant off the ground. You hear him say, 'The bag's behind the counter. Take it and just go.' "

"When you're pressing the Valgrave's dress pants, you find a pair of Gram Talers in the pocket."

The mundane becomes interesting when it means something (or appears to). Characters have to be characters, not just video game enemies. Even shooting and flying fall flat in an RPG if there's no story or conflict involved. Every encounter should involve conflict if it's worth playing out.

As to the luxuries rule, I'm presuming it's cleaning equipment, electronic babysitting machines, fancy vending machines, bigger, better staterooms, etc. I don't use it.