Mongoose Matt,
Well, what do you know? I WON! A fifth of Maker's Mark too.
Thanks for confirming my faith in you and your company.
Regards,
Bill
What are "luxuries" in the ship design?
- Thread starter far-trader
- Start date
Mongoose Matt,
Well, what do you know? I WON! A fifth of Maker's Mark too.
Thanks for confirming my faith in you and your company.
Regards,
Bill
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
I thought I was just too tired to understand what I read last night. It seemed self-contradictory, your statement above didn't seem born out by the rest. I'm still confused re-reading it this morning. Let me try this...
Using your comparison to Full Service vs Self Service:
Full Service is to High Passage as Self Service is to Middle Passage.
Middle Passage costs less than High Passage, just the way Self Service pumps used to be a few cents cheaper than Full Service pumps.
Middle Passage requires more independence(1), i.e. Self Service for a discount.
High Passage gets pampered attention(2) and pays a premium for it, i.e. Full Service with no discount.
Now tell me how the service station putting a pop machine by the door will suddenly convince the Full Service patrons to pump their own gas, wash the window, check the oil and tires, all at the same Full Service price, while the Self Service patron at the next pump pays less for their gas for doing the same thing and oh, there's a pop machine by the door they can access too, but they may have to wait in line behind the Full Service patron. Do you seriously think anyone is going to be using the Full Service pumps at that station?
(1) In CT Mid Pax had to fend entirely for themselves, where the analogy holds best. In MT they had 1/50 of a Steward-0 which is still practically ignored and on their own. In MPT they get 1/5 of a Steward-0 which is a pretty big jump in attention(3) and actually implies pretty good service imo, and a better fit for the small discount is the ticket. I would praise Mongoose for this, if not for the nerfing of Steward by "luxuries".
(2) In CT High Pax get 1/8 of a Steward-0, same in MT. In MPT they get 1/2 of a Steward-0. Another huge increase of attention in my opinion(3) and again worthy of praise given the high expense of the ticket, and a better fit with the ticket difference.
(3) And yet with MPT apparently deciding on one hand that interstellar Travellers need much more attention than in previous editions to justify the high cost of travel and that Steward skill is therefore even more important, they then drop that like a hot potato and say "Here, ignore the skill entirely, just buy these magic boxes instead."
Precisely. But they didn't need to, that is what Middle Passage is.
I have less of a problem (practically none) with "luxuries" being some kind of automated replacement for the Steward(s) (a bot or bots to be precise) at a TL sufficient for it to be easily ordered about by the passenger (verbal command and intelligent, with expert software in the areas of skill required).
But then why not just make it that? Why some nebulous "magic box" instead? Especially when the rules already include the means to do so.
But then it's not really "luxuries" either is it? Again I have to wonder how much thought was given to the idea when the means of replacing a sophont Steward is right there in the rules and the name of this other concept seems so far off the mark.
And given Mongoose Matt's reply to the question (or more precisely, lack of) I'm more convinced it is just a way to drop the skill so players can ignore it. And I'm all the more confused as to why they then felt a need to change the skill and make it more required in the first place if dropping it was the intent all along. Or maybe the "luxuries" rule was a last minute response to playtest feedback... "Aww, I'm the Steward again? That suxors. I wanted to be the cool (insert other meme) instead."
Hans,
While whether Matt would answer or not wasn't exactly what the bet was about, a "non-answer" was among my predictions.
A good analogy of the bet can be found in horse racing. My friend bet on Mongoose and Matt to "win" while I'll bet on Mongoose and Matt to "place" or "show". They "showed" and I won a fifth of good liquor.
Regards,
Bill
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
A convert! Woot!
And thanks for your thoughts, "gloriously decadent automation" sums up my own leanings nicely
Yes, in some games (read some refs) Steward can be a fun character. In some though, and for some players despite the ref being willing, it just won't work. Nothing wrong with that, just as there's nothing wrong with playing a Steward.
And nothing wrong with giving the ref a way out. What bugs me about the choice made is the apparent lack of thought behind it, and now an unwillingness by Mongoose to offer an opinion on an honest question about it. Even a simple admission of "I don't know, we really didn't think that much about it." would have been helpful.
Let me be clear, I wasn't expecting an official answer. I was interested in what players and refs thought. And I understand the actual people behind the rules are busy. But when an official does drop in, and answers, I'd hoped the answer would show they'd read the thread or at least skimmed it and that the answer would show some thought. The impression I got from Mongoose Matt was he read the last page (a couple posts), jumped right to the flippant, and probably won't be back.
Dan,
I do praise them for it. Someone or something has to do that job whether there are high passengers, middle passenger, or no passengers at all MgT added a bit a realism IMHO.
I don't think they "nerfed" it with the luxuries rule.
I think they made a conscious decision to provide an official way to opt out of steward requirements and they did so for the many reasons I've written about in this thread.
My players didn't want to bother with the job and, try as I might, I could never coax them into doing the job. It simply wasn't worthwhile to them and I suspect many other groups feel the same way. Because my players would only deal with the requirement in the most perfunctory manner and would outsource it as soon as they could, I as the GM was left to produce a NPC or robot to handle the job.
MgT luxuries rule removes the low-grade steward headache my players and I always suffered from.
Yes, Mongoose slipped up when they didn't discuss just what these "luxuries" consist of. If I were running a MgT campaign I'd rule that the 1dTon and 100,000 CrImps consist of a cheap mass-produced valet-bot running a very narrowly focused expert "hospitality" program. The volume would include the valet-bot, a maintenance "kennel", and a selection of tools/devices only it can use. In this manner we get around the "personal" service part of personalized service.
We call Mongoose on their many screw ups when we find them. We need need to acknowledge their achievements when we find them too.
The luxuries rule isn't perfect, but it was a good faith attempt and it is something a GM can easily tweak into a more plausible shape.
That's a plus in my book.
Regards,
Bill
Not at all - but I am not here to perform for his amusement.
A self-fulfilling prophecy when you make a bet out of it, while at the same time removing any chance of a decent discussion.
For me, the greatest luxury item one can find on a starship is the company of others. Crew, passengers, stowaways ... if they're sophonts, who cares if all you've got to eat during Jump is some lumpy, watery protein powder ration mix (just add water and flavour) that's two weeks past its supposed sell by date?
The best luxury is conversation, dialogue, and the chance for a Referee to run some juicy, choice NPCs in a bottle story with the characters as a captive audience.
The best luxury is conversation, dialogue, and the chance for a Referee to run some juicy, choice NPCs in a bottle story with the characters as a captive audience.
Umm, fine, but rhetorical questions don't really work on forums. I have no way of telling what is rhetorical and what isn't!
For your other question, I did not write the rules in question, but I am talking to the writer to get an answer for you.
Madarin Dude
SOC-13
I agree in that the company of a crew member would be greatly appreciated by the travelers. Even if it is a steward. So i agree that there should be some sort of steward on board to talk to the passengers. A bot can do a lot of things to make the job easier but it is not real company.
But there are luxuries that are not mentioned a lot. Materials used is a big one. Mid passengers sleep in burlap sacks on an iron bunk. High passengers get a pillowtop mattress and silk sheets. things like wood trim art hanging in the stateroom. Some other things are food mid passengers eat microwave burritos high passengers have prepared meals made from some of the finest ingredients available. Pheasant or swordfish with fresh fruit and vegetables with a nice sauce.
I think luxuries can lower the amount of stewards required but really can't eliminate them.
Mongoose Matt thanks for your input I know people can be difficult at times but it is nice to see someone with the company takes the time to try to answer your questions. I know it is not always what i want to hear.
But there are luxuries that are not mentioned a lot. Materials used is a big one. Mid passengers sleep in burlap sacks on an iron bunk. High passengers get a pillowtop mattress and silk sheets. things like wood trim art hanging in the stateroom. Some other things are food mid passengers eat microwave burritos high passengers have prepared meals made from some of the finest ingredients available. Pheasant or swordfish with fresh fruit and vegetables with a nice sauce.
I think luxuries can lower the amount of stewards required but really can't eliminate them.
Mongoose Matt thanks for your input I know people can be difficult at times but it is nice to see someone with the company takes the time to try to answer your questions. I know it is not always what i want to hear.
Spoken like a true gentleman. Let's move on.
Well, that is what we hope for
In answer to the broader question on luxuries, incidentally, the answer is going to be; pretty much whatever you want and whatever fits in your campaign universe.
For us, a central point for Traveller is for players and Referees to take bits and pieces from the rules, background, planetary data, etc, and run with them, effectively creating their own games.
Our new settings will often be more tightly presented, and definitions like this may be quantified, as is in the nature of those settings. However, generic Traveller and the OTU are very much open to your interpretations.
Matt,
I don't expect you to perform for my amusement or the amusement of anyone else. I do expect you to answer questions however, why else would you be here?
So. I'll ask again.
Which statements did you think were incorrect in Epicenter's quoted comments?
A - That the modern US is not a very obviously an class-divided and openly class-conscious society.
B - That the Third Imperium is a very obviously an class-divided and openly class-conscious society.
C - That people above a certain rank are going to expect someone like that (i.e. a steward) as a given.
D - Given a lot of authors for Traveller can't really imagine what this means, it sometimes comes out a bit garbled like in this case.
You'll notice that I left out the bits about the thinking behind the Steward/Luxuries Opt-Out rule because you've said you're asking the supplement's author about that.
I'll give you my answers if it will help.
- The US is divided by class and is class conscious. The US is not openly class conscious however. Openly discussing class is a social taboo.
- The Third Imperium is divided by class and is openly class conscious.
- People above a certain rank in the Third Imperium will expect personal service.
- Because they grew up and live in the Late 20th/Early 21st Century West, Traveller writers do have trouble imagining things that their Victorian and Edwardian forbearers took for granted.
You own Mongoose and you're here as a shill for Mongoose. That means answering questions and presenting the Mongoose side of any issue is part of the job. Whether or not I took up a bet that was offered to me about your potential answer(s) to a given question is beside the point.
Oh, and to tackle the "shill" issue that you brought up in another thread:
I used the second definition of the word in the earlier thread and use it in this thread. You're here shilling for Mongoose because the sale of Mongoose products puts money in your pocket, a lot of money I hope, and pretending otherwise is disingenuous.
FWIW, I think the Steward/Luxuries Opt-Out rule was a good move by Mongoose and I've said as much in this very thread.
Regards,
Bill
I agree with you on the whole - not so sure about the 'openly' bits. The US does not really have the defined strata of lower/middle/upper that Britain had and, to a large extent, stil bears, but class can be very much defined by money (and this is true of most nations).
As for discussions of class, every time someone talks about 'white trash', they are defining a class of people.
Certainly can be. However, the Imperium is HUGE, and you are going to find every take of class somewhere, especially when you move further out (such as to the Marches, which is one of the things that makes the sector such an interesting place).
By and large, yes, though there will always be exceptions.
Not sure that was what the original poster meant. However, either way, it is a professional writer's job to imagine all kinds of things. That is why they are writers, and I believe we employ good ones.
This is true as far as it goes - but there is a caveat.
Like everyone else here and on other forums, I love talking about games. All kinds of games. Anything about them - their design choices, their potential in games, what can be done with them in the future, and so on.
Anyone can ask me any question they like, and I'll be happy to answer - and, hopefully, we'll move on to a discussion afterwards.
All that said, I am also like you chaps in that I don't enjoy someone taking the Michael. If I get the sense that someone is doing that then, honestly, I am not interested. I'm here to talk about games, not bicker.
Asking someone questions and then telling them you have a bet on their answers (in effect 'daring' them), isn't cool, dude. Rather you just asked the questions, and had the bet in private if you must.
So. . . we cool?
[/QUOTE]
ThunderChilde
SOC-13
Hey Mongoose Matt, OT question
Totally divergent, off topic. Is Mongoose going to be at Travellercon in October? I applaud you going to Gencon, though I will not make it. Gurps will be there, and bully for them for showing, so are you coming too?
Back on topic. FTW, in mtu Luxuries have been defined as Yacht like finery, luxurious fitings, very fine dining, etc. including superb automation. That being said, some of the crew still have steward and spend time with the passengers.
Totally divergent, off topic. Is Mongoose going to be at Travellercon in October? I applaud you going to Gencon, though I will not make it. Gurps will be there, and bully for them for showing, so are you coming too?
Back on topic. FTW, in mtu Luxuries have been defined as Yacht like finery, luxurious fitings, very fine dining, etc. including superb automation. That being said, some of the crew still have steward and spend time with the passengers.
So. . . we cool?
Matt,
Please believe me. We've always been cool.
While I may not like all the decisions you've made with your Traveller license, I do not dislike all those decisions either.
Most importantly, those decisions were yours to make.
Regards,
Bill
Personally, I love the whole reboot. The moment I saw the core rulebook, I bought the damned thing on spec, sight unseen, no hesitation.
This is a time for revisionings, for reboots of old series that remain true to the originals, yet retain their spirit. Doctor Who, Captain Scarlet, Star Trek, and Traveller.
SF is, once again, back on the menu, and its appeal is broader than it ever was - mostly due to the realisation of this up and coming generation that we are living in the Twenty First Century, an era which has become so deeply imprinted in the public psyche as "The Future" that the tacit acceptance of such is unconsciously part of the fabric of our society, driving our technologies forward at an unprecedented rate and prompting scientists to take chances on new technologies that would have been laughed out of the lab fifty years ago.
So yeah, this Traveller has all the spirit of the original. And it also has a spirit all its own, which is the important thing.
Thanks, Matt.
Now ... back to discussion of luxuries?
Fiat: it doesn't have the spirit of the original for a great many. Nor of any other traveller edition. It's a unique beastie. And for a great many, the "Spirit" of Traveller is the OTU...
It's got lots of little unexplained "why break the extant canon with this change" bits... like most of Merc, the Luxuries rule, the additional LL effects columns, and so on.
I'm really curious to see an explanation of what luxuries are that doesn't snap the belief suspenders right off... So far, the only things I can think of are self-changing beds, excercise equipment, entertainment centers, and autochefs. And those stretch REALLY hard.
It's got lots of little unexplained "why break the extant canon with this change" bits... like most of Merc, the Luxuries rule, the additional LL effects columns, and so on.
I'm really curious to see an explanation of what luxuries are that doesn't snap the belief suspenders right off... So far, the only things I can think of are self-changing beds, excercise equipment, entertainment centers, and autochefs. And those stretch REALLY hard.
