What do you ask players when forming a game?

[aramis]

... I'd always thought the point of rpg's was living out other possibilities, not replicating a mundane existence in a mundane setting.

If one looks at recollections of Gygax and Arneson's earliest campaigns...

The precursor to RPGs was the Referee-moderated wargame, "Braunstein".

In Braunstein III, they were given a budget, a setting, and permission to spend it however they wanted to attempt the coup. Dave Arneson, an avid Diplomacy player, took a chance, and asked for a helicopter and a printing press. He leaflet bombed the village. In a fit of whimsy, the referee, Dave Wesely, set a difficulty.

It was, apparently, a lot of fun. Arneson taught this style of wargaming (Dave Arneson's term) - the hybrid of diplomacy, minis rules, and Kreigspiel, and as things progressed, it eventually got to dropping the minis rules for a more narrative mode of, and I quote "story wargaming" (DA, 2004, personal correspondence).

The primary goal is to have fun.
The intended method is to have fun through play, which can involve a variety of styles of interaction.

 

[Tiikeri]

(heh. not just in rpg's ....)

can't myself. there's a big fat line between "fantasy" and "irrationality".

watched a d&d game the other week. mostly older guys, probably 30's / 40's. they spent an entire hour ordering "mead" and counting silver pieces and chatting and looking around the "inn". the dm looked lost, but the players ... the players were smiling and waving their arms and having a GRAND old time. I just stared, I couldn't figure out what they were doing. guess now I know - they weren't doing, were feeling.

Yes.

Ordinary things can take on a whole other vibe when they happen in a game. It's one of the reasons real life police officers go on Grand Theft Auto 5 heavy immersion rp servers and play cops. They delight in the procedural aspect of it, the being a police officer doing police things aspect of it, without the stress, danger, and negativity that comes with their police profession in real life. They also enjoy the 'giving Tiikeri's character a #%^@$# speeding ticket' aspect of it, but that's beside the point.

Such 'feeling' scenes in a game can make the 'doing' scenes FAR more significant to the players. They'll care about their characters much more because they enjoyed the 'feeling' scene experience with their characters. Their characters will look out for each other and generally function much more realistically. One gaming group I was acquainted with had gotten to the point where they would play D&D without books, dice or character sheets because they were playing out all the discussions and figuring things out that a group of six powerful renowned adventurers would have to deal with.

Example:

"The army of the evil king musters on the frontier. We must assemble our warriors and march in one week's time."

"Brothers, I cannot. The princess is accused, and I must fight for her honor."

"Why? All your gold and glory could not win her heart! Why fight for her now, when the fate of the kingdom hangs in the balance?"

"Because I love her."


This entire situation developed through many sessions of gameplay, the in-character working through it took a number of full length sessions, and the DM and the players enjoyed it all immensely. It all ended in total victory over the army of the evil king, but at the cost of a horrific betrayal. It unfolded like a story written by seven authors, emerging organically from the players faithfully playing the personalities of their characters which had developed over time, and the DM playing the NPCs according to their personalities as well as impartially adjudicating the setting and the game mechanics.

Now, these guys were top-notch D&D players, but this example serves to illustrate the intense exhilarating memorable gameplay that is possible when a solid group of players combines in-depth 'feeling' scenes with intense relevant 'doing/action' scenes.

 

[flykiller]

This entire situation developed through many sessions of gameplay ... this example serves to illustrate the intense exhilarating memorable gameplay that is possible when a solid group of players combines in-depth 'feeling' scenes with intense relevant 'doing/action' scenes.

I understand what you're talking about completely. but these guys weren't doing that. they were just ... they were ... I don't know really how to describe it, I don't think there are words to describe what they were doing, because they were doing nothing.

the primary goal is to have fun.

well yeah, but ... that's fun? I think they'd have been having more fun drinking real mead at a real inn. don't need an rpg for that.

 

[aramis]

I understand what you're talking about completely. but these guys weren't doing that. they were just ... they were ... I don't know really how to describe it, I don't think there are words to describe what they were doing, because they were doing nothing.



well yeah, but ... that's fun? I think they'd have been having more fun drinking real mead at a real inn. don't need an rpg for that.

It's obvious you do NOT get what I was saying...

Because you are insisting on projecting YOUR ideas of what is fun.

Sometimes, it's fun to just spend a moment in time in the character's downtime, so that the character feels more like a real person and less like an action movie star's career.

And sometimes, it's hoping for a carousing fail and a resulting mishap....

 

[flykiller]

It's obvious you do NOT get what I was saying...

Because you are insisting on projecting YOUR ideas of what is fun.

the original discussion was regarding "it's more about how the players feel", and if it's about how they "feel" then really an rpg is superfluous, as are a whole lot of other things. "all that matters is feeling fine ...."

seeing that same thing in the socal earthquake responses. quite a few people are just irrationally freaked out, they can't stand it, they've left the area or they walk around with their eyes jacked wide open in terror and a big smile on their face trying to hide it. it's demeaning. my church hired a counselor to help people deal with it and I spoke to her trying to grasp why such a thing was needed, and she explained that "it's' not the size of the threat, it's the size of the fear." but this approach leaves people completely unable to deal with either the threat or the fear, because it puts their irrational feelings at the center of everything in disregard of factual reality or objective action to deal with it. all that matters is the feelz. (good job security for counselors though ....)

 

[Tiikeri]

I understand what you're talking about completely. but these guys weren't doing that. they were just ... they were ... I don't know really how to describe it, I don't think there are words to describe what they were doing, because they were doing nothing.



well yeah, but ... that's fun? I think they'd have been having more fun drinking real mead at a real inn. don't need an rpg for that.

You were there and I wasn't, so I defer to your first-hand observation. But, from your description, it sounds like they were just having some fun playing their characters carousing in an inn.

Also, here's a clarification of what I was getting at when I mentioned games focusing on 'feeling'.

From my reflection on gaming over a long enough time to see things change, it seems like games changed to suit players' desire to have all the fun of a great story without going through all the simulationist impartial building of the great story. They wanted the 'feel good' victory in the epic story without doing the work of the building up that epic and doing what it would plausibly take to achieve that victory. They wanted to be the best fighter pilot in the galaxy without logging all the grueling flight hours that would take. They wanted the immediate thrill of getting something instead of deep abiding satisfaction of earning something.

I think one reason for this is that older experienced game designers were tired of the buildup grind. They wanted to skip to dessert because they had already had countless servings of meat and potatoes. I think the other reason is that younger players didn't have an interest in impartial game systems. They wanted emotional fulfillment from the story and they didn't have much love for simulationist game systems which delayed or denied that fulfillment. I also think the intellectual pleasure of finding a way to resolve the conflict in an adventure within the limits of the character and his resources isn't a play style that all that many people enjoy. I think they would rather say 'ok we do this!', have their characters be able to do 'that', and then the enemies fall, they get their prize, beer is drunk, pretzels are eaten, then everyone has a big laugh and starts talking about what they saw on television.

 

[flykiller]

They wanted emotional fulfillment from the story and they didn't have much love for simulationist game systems which delayed or denied that fulfillment.

I'm really glad I've had this conversation here. in prepping for a possible "captain" game I now see I've been anticipating/assuming a fairly simulation-heavy experience (a "how does this actually work" storyline) but keeping what you say in mind I can now intelligently query what the player is looking for against what I'm preparing for.

They wanted the immediate thrill of getting something instead of deep abiding satisfaction of earning something.

(laugh) one early traveller ref told me about one player who was rolling up his first character. the player came across the "ss" stat and got all excited - "I'm a member of the SS?!"

 

[flykiller]

I think one reason for this is that older experienced game designers were tired of the buildup grind. They wanted to skip to dessert because they had already had countless servings of meat and potatoes.

(on a diet, now I'm hungry) for me the meat and potatoes are the dessert - so to speak - to "live" the experience.

 

[willtron3030]

don't need an rpg for that.

Maybe they were just keeping in shape; LARPing season begins again in the autumn. [I made that detail up just now, but it would be funny if LARPing competed with eSports for particpants].

 

[Tiikeri]

(on a diet, now I'm hungry) for me the meat and potatoes are the dessert - so to speak - to "live" the experience.

That's just it. It's a challenge to take a limited ordinary character and through his adventures build him up to be somebody special who does important things. It's the journey that creates the sense of accomplishment.