What weapons do police carry?
- Thread starter ACK!!
- Start date
Thanks. I knew they had an answer, I'd just forgotten what it was
Just one other point: I've worked extensively with the police (4 years doing mobile computing solutions for various PDs). You are right about generally being able to talk people down. But not always.
Look at the 4 RCMP members ambushed and murdered in the last week or so in Alberta. The person involved probably didn't give them any time to talk him down... and he had a vast history of charges relating to guns, mental instability, etc. So, not all situations can be resolved without guns. Had none of the officers had guns, we'd probably had at least 6 dead officers, as he fired at the Edmonton autotheft officers who arrived on the scene as well. If they were unarmed, he may well have killed them too.
In Canada, we have about the right balance. If you even *draw* your gun on duty, you have to file paperwork. Any shooting is reviewed by a special investigative unit. Both of these help to really keep the police on their toes with respect to escalation/abuse of power. But they do have the wherewithal to defend themselves and the community with lethal force if required. Sometimes you just *do not* have time to talk someone down before they'll harm someone else or the police officer himself.
And for what it is worth, no one in Canada would consider the psycho 'near mythical' at present. It is all to real and the slaughter of these 4 young RCMP members is a national tragedy.
There is a happy medium - I see it as police officers that are well trained (the RCMP is such), have good procedures and protocols in place for when and if escalation is allowed, have a range of tools at their disposal from a kind word and an ear all the way up through batons, asps, tasers and up into sidearms, shotguns, rifles, and if the ERT team shows up, sniper rifles and heavier kit like SMGs and ARs. Because the police have the full range of response, but there is a lot of supervision, training, and procedural paperwork, they tend to be not overly hasty. And we would go after any trigger happy cop legally, so they know that.
Having worked with RCMP and other PD members over a long period of time including travelling with them on their shifts, I am *less* worried about dangerous police corruption than I am about the officers being unable to defend themselves.
It comes down a lot to how corrupt your police infrastructure is, which has a lot to do with your political infrastructure, your fifth estate (media), how much you pay your police (well paid police are a lot less corrupt), how much respect your police get and how well they get on with the public, and how well trained the police are.
In Canada, our federal police are very well trained and incredibly dedicated. They understand their roles in a lot of the small communities and work closely in community policing in all communities. They aren't just your gaurdians, they are the guys you curl with, play hockey with, and see at charitable events.
Yes, you get a few bad apples, but they are as likely to be stomped out by their own guys (as in caught, not taken out) as by anyone outside. They embarass and disappoint most honest and hard working cops, which is the majority of them. Or at least it is here, due to the cultural and economic background of our police forces.
Not everywhere may have the same economic and political and cultural and institutional frameworks, so if I lived elsewhere, I might be more afraid of police corruption.
But in the Traveller universe, which we're speaking of, all of these different flavours should appear somewhere (vain attempt to drag this back into the realm of the fictional sci-fi game....), right?
Just one other point: I've worked extensively with the police (4 years doing mobile computing solutions for various PDs). You are right about generally being able to talk people down. But not always.
Look at the 4 RCMP members ambushed and murdered in the last week or so in Alberta. The person involved probably didn't give them any time to talk him down... and he had a vast history of charges relating to guns, mental instability, etc. So, not all situations can be resolved without guns. Had none of the officers had guns, we'd probably had at least 6 dead officers, as he fired at the Edmonton autotheft officers who arrived on the scene as well. If they were unarmed, he may well have killed them too.
In Canada, we have about the right balance. If you even *draw* your gun on duty, you have to file paperwork. Any shooting is reviewed by a special investigative unit. Both of these help to really keep the police on their toes with respect to escalation/abuse of power. But they do have the wherewithal to defend themselves and the community with lethal force if required. Sometimes you just *do not* have time to talk someone down before they'll harm someone else or the police officer himself.
And for what it is worth, no one in Canada would consider the psycho 'near mythical' at present. It is all to real and the slaughter of these 4 young RCMP members is a national tragedy.
There is a happy medium - I see it as police officers that are well trained (the RCMP is such), have good procedures and protocols in place for when and if escalation is allowed, have a range of tools at their disposal from a kind word and an ear all the way up through batons, asps, tasers and up into sidearms, shotguns, rifles, and if the ERT team shows up, sniper rifles and heavier kit like SMGs and ARs. Because the police have the full range of response, but there is a lot of supervision, training, and procedural paperwork, they tend to be not overly hasty. And we would go after any trigger happy cop legally, so they know that.
Having worked with RCMP and other PD members over a long period of time including travelling with them on their shifts, I am *less* worried about dangerous police corruption than I am about the officers being unable to defend themselves.
It comes down a lot to how corrupt your police infrastructure is, which has a lot to do with your political infrastructure, your fifth estate (media), how much you pay your police (well paid police are a lot less corrupt), how much respect your police get and how well they get on with the public, and how well trained the police are.
In Canada, our federal police are very well trained and incredibly dedicated. They understand their roles in a lot of the small communities and work closely in community policing in all communities. They aren't just your gaurdians, they are the guys you curl with, play hockey with, and see at charitable events.
Yes, you get a few bad apples, but they are as likely to be stomped out by their own guys (as in caught, not taken out) as by anyone outside. They embarass and disappoint most honest and hard working cops, which is the majority of them. Or at least it is here, due to the cultural and economic background of our police forces.
Not everywhere may have the same economic and political and cultural and institutional frameworks, so if I lived elsewhere, I might be more afraid of police corruption.
But in the Traveller universe, which we're speaking of, all of these different flavours should appear somewhere (vain attempt to drag this back into the realm of the fictional sci-fi game....), right?
Thanks. I knew they had an answer, I'd just forgotten what it was
Just one other point: I've worked extensively with the police (4 years doing mobile computing solutions for various PDs). You are right about generally being able to talk people down. But not always.
Look at the 4 RCMP members ambushed and murdered in the last week or so in Alberta. The person involved probably didn't give them any time to talk him down... and he had a vast history of charges relating to guns, mental instability, etc. So, not all situations can be resolved without guns. Had none of the officers had guns, we'd probably had at least 6 dead officers, as he fired at the Edmonton autotheft officers who arrived on the scene as well. If they were unarmed, he may well have killed them too.
In Canada, we have about the right balance. If you even *draw* your gun on duty, you have to file paperwork. Any shooting is reviewed by a special investigative unit. Both of these help to really keep the police on their toes with respect to escalation/abuse of power. But they do have the wherewithal to defend themselves and the community with lethal force if required. Sometimes you just *do not* have time to talk someone down before they'll harm someone else or the police officer himself.
And for what it is worth, no one in Canada would consider the psycho 'near mythical' at present. It is all to real and the slaughter of these 4 young RCMP members is a national tragedy.
There is a happy medium - I see it as police officers that are well trained (the RCMP is such), have good procedures and protocols in place for when and if escalation is allowed, have a range of tools at their disposal from a kind word and an ear all the way up through batons, asps, tasers and up into sidearms, shotguns, rifles, and if the ERT team shows up, sniper rifles and heavier kit like SMGs and ARs. Because the police have the full range of response, but there is a lot of supervision, training, and procedural paperwork, they tend to be not overly hasty. And we would go after any trigger happy cop legally, so they know that.
Having worked with RCMP and other PD members over a long period of time including travelling with them on their shifts, I am *less* worried about dangerous police corruption than I am about the officers being unable to defend themselves.
It comes down a lot to how corrupt your police infrastructure is, which has a lot to do with your political infrastructure, your fifth estate (media), how much you pay your police (well paid police are a lot less corrupt), how much respect your police get and how well they get on with the public, and how well trained the police are.
In Canada, our federal police are very well trained and incredibly dedicated. They understand their roles in a lot of the small communities and work closely in community policing in all communities. They aren't just your gaurdians, they are the guys you curl with, play hockey with, and see at charitable events.
Yes, you get a few bad apples, but they are as likely to be stomped out by their own guys (as in caught, not taken out) as by anyone outside. They embarass and disappoint most honest and hard working cops, which is the majority of them. Or at least it is here, due to the cultural and economic background of our police forces.
Not everywhere may have the same economic and political and cultural and institutional frameworks, so if I lived elsewhere, I might be more afraid of police corruption.
But in the Traveller universe, which we're speaking of, all of these different flavours should appear somewhere (vain attempt to drag this back into the realm of the fictional sci-fi game....), right?
Just one other point: I've worked extensively with the police (4 years doing mobile computing solutions for various PDs). You are right about generally being able to talk people down. But not always.
Look at the 4 RCMP members ambushed and murdered in the last week or so in Alberta. The person involved probably didn't give them any time to talk him down... and he had a vast history of charges relating to guns, mental instability, etc. So, not all situations can be resolved without guns. Had none of the officers had guns, we'd probably had at least 6 dead officers, as he fired at the Edmonton autotheft officers who arrived on the scene as well. If they were unarmed, he may well have killed them too.
In Canada, we have about the right balance. If you even *draw* your gun on duty, you have to file paperwork. Any shooting is reviewed by a special investigative unit. Both of these help to really keep the police on their toes with respect to escalation/abuse of power. But they do have the wherewithal to defend themselves and the community with lethal force if required. Sometimes you just *do not* have time to talk someone down before they'll harm someone else or the police officer himself.
And for what it is worth, no one in Canada would consider the psycho 'near mythical' at present. It is all to real and the slaughter of these 4 young RCMP members is a national tragedy.
There is a happy medium - I see it as police officers that are well trained (the RCMP is such), have good procedures and protocols in place for when and if escalation is allowed, have a range of tools at their disposal from a kind word and an ear all the way up through batons, asps, tasers and up into sidearms, shotguns, rifles, and if the ERT team shows up, sniper rifles and heavier kit like SMGs and ARs. Because the police have the full range of response, but there is a lot of supervision, training, and procedural paperwork, they tend to be not overly hasty. And we would go after any trigger happy cop legally, so they know that.
Having worked with RCMP and other PD members over a long period of time including travelling with them on their shifts, I am *less* worried about dangerous police corruption than I am about the officers being unable to defend themselves.
It comes down a lot to how corrupt your police infrastructure is, which has a lot to do with your political infrastructure, your fifth estate (media), how much you pay your police (well paid police are a lot less corrupt), how much respect your police get and how well they get on with the public, and how well trained the police are.
In Canada, our federal police are very well trained and incredibly dedicated. They understand their roles in a lot of the small communities and work closely in community policing in all communities. They aren't just your gaurdians, they are the guys you curl with, play hockey with, and see at charitable events.
Yes, you get a few bad apples, but they are as likely to be stomped out by their own guys (as in caught, not taken out) as by anyone outside. They embarass and disappoint most honest and hard working cops, which is the majority of them. Or at least it is here, due to the cultural and economic background of our police forces.
Not everywhere may have the same economic and political and cultural and institutional frameworks, so if I lived elsewhere, I might be more afraid of police corruption.
But in the Traveller universe, which we're speaking of, all of these different flavours should appear somewhere (vain attempt to drag this back into the realm of the fictional sci-fi game....), right?
I meant more in comparison to their appearance in the media and in fiction. In Oz we have a "psycho" event every 5 years or so. They do happen, but in general it is a tiny part of a peace officers concern.
We also have public health. I wonder if the free availability of mental health care modifies this.
Getting back on topic I see a fully equiped high tech officer carrying the folowing:
Light armor - something like a slightly bulky jacket at most.
Communications, encrypted, long range, connected to local network and police private network.
Backup comms, encrypted, shorter range.
Floating micro-cams, voice commanded, set to flag abberant behaviour to the officer.
Multi-tool, flashlight/baton/stunrod/projectile taser/laser designator.
Restriction devices - handcuffs or similar.
Optional helmet dependant on local conditions.
I meant more in comparison to their appearance in the media and in fiction. In Oz we have a "psycho" event every 5 years or so. They do happen, but in general it is a tiny part of a peace officers concern.
We also have public health. I wonder if the free availability of mental health care modifies this.
Getting back on topic I see a fully equiped high tech officer carrying the folowing:
Light armor - something like a slightly bulky jacket at most.
Communications, encrypted, long range, connected to local network and police private network.
Backup comms, encrypted, shorter range.
Floating micro-cams, voice commanded, set to flag abberant behaviour to the officer.
Multi-tool, flashlight/baton/stunrod/projectile taser/laser designator.
Restriction devices - handcuffs or similar.
Optional helmet dependant on local conditions.
We too have socialized medicine (and mental health). And you have to go back to the NWMP days before the RCMP and one of the Rebellions to get as many officers killed at once. Canada has lost about 200 RCMP members (roughly) over its entire history. A goodly portion of these to car accidents, plane accidents, boat accidents, drowning, helicopter accidents, etc.
The point is though the gun the police officer has needs not come out. I know 14 year veterans who've never drawn their gun in the line of duty (under threat, probably did as a precaution from time to time). But the tool is there, in that rare case where they need it. And how many assaults have been prevented by the knowledge the officer has lethal force on-call? I'd wajor some number.
Floating micro cams could also be set to flag abberant behaviour *of* the officer
The point is though the gun the police officer has needs not come out. I know 14 year veterans who've never drawn their gun in the line of duty (under threat, probably did as a precaution from time to time). But the tool is there, in that rare case where they need it. And how many assaults have been prevented by the knowledge the officer has lethal force on-call? I'd wajor some number.
Floating micro cams could also be set to flag abberant behaviour *of* the officer
We too have socialized medicine (and mental health). And you have to go back to the NWMP days before the RCMP and one of the Rebellions to get as many officers killed at once. Canada has lost about 200 RCMP members (roughly) over its entire history. A goodly portion of these to car accidents, plane accidents, boat accidents, drowning, helicopter accidents, etc.
The point is though the gun the police officer has needs not come out. I know 14 year veterans who've never drawn their gun in the line of duty (under threat, probably did as a precaution from time to time). But the tool is there, in that rare case where they need it. And how many assaults have been prevented by the knowledge the officer has lethal force on-call? I'd wajor some number.
Floating micro cams could also be set to flag abberant behaviour *of* the officer
The point is though the gun the police officer has needs not come out. I know 14 year veterans who've never drawn their gun in the line of duty (under threat, probably did as a precaution from time to time). But the tool is there, in that rare case where they need it. And how many assaults have been prevented by the knowledge the officer has lethal force on-call? I'd wajor some number.
Floating micro cams could also be set to flag abberant behaviour *of* the officer
Spending a long time in the UK growing up, it freaked me out a bit when I came home to Oz to find cops carrying guns (but not as much as seeing German police with SMGs at Berlin airport ...).
I'm personally more worried about security guards being allowed to carry guns - IMHO there is far too few restrictions on their licensing, and several recent news articles have uncovered widespread unreported 'theft' or 'loss' of both guns and ammo from security firms.
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IMTU the police vary widely from planet to planet. There are some where they are more like British bobbies, and others where they are more like heavily armed enforcers for totalitarian authorities.
Most of my police forces have access to the non-lethal weapons and prefer arming their officers with those, whilst having access to more serious armaments for rapid response forces.
One of the best fights I've run yet with T20 occurred on a high law world where possession of any weapon was illegal. The PCs decided to obey the law, but got caught up in a fight with some rioting thugs that had pistols and knives. Even when they could have taken a gun off the bad guys, the PCs (wisely) decided to leave it on the ground and choose to fight unarmed. The end result was that when the cops turned up, they were let off with a warning about staying out of dangerous parts of the city - of course the PCs that was shot had a 2-3 day hospital visit.
I'm personally more worried about security guards being allowed to carry guns - IMHO there is far too few restrictions on their licensing, and several recent news articles have uncovered widespread unreported 'theft' or 'loss' of both guns and ammo from security firms.
---
IMTU the police vary widely from planet to planet. There are some where they are more like British bobbies, and others where they are more like heavily armed enforcers for totalitarian authorities.
Most of my police forces have access to the non-lethal weapons and prefer arming their officers with those, whilst having access to more serious armaments for rapid response forces.
One of the best fights I've run yet with T20 occurred on a high law world where possession of any weapon was illegal. The PCs decided to obey the law, but got caught up in a fight with some rioting thugs that had pistols and knives. Even when they could have taken a gun off the bad guys, the PCs (wisely) decided to leave it on the ground and choose to fight unarmed. The end result was that when the cops turned up, they were let off with a warning about staying out of dangerous parts of the city - of course the PCs that was shot had a 2-3 day hospital visit.
Spending a long time in the UK growing up, it freaked me out a bit when I came home to Oz to find cops carrying guns (but not as much as seeing German police with SMGs at Berlin airport ...).
I'm personally more worried about security guards being allowed to carry guns - IMHO there is far too few restrictions on their licensing, and several recent news articles have uncovered widespread unreported 'theft' or 'loss' of both guns and ammo from security firms.
---
IMTU the police vary widely from planet to planet. There are some where they are more like British bobbies, and others where they are more like heavily armed enforcers for totalitarian authorities.
Most of my police forces have access to the non-lethal weapons and prefer arming their officers with those, whilst having access to more serious armaments for rapid response forces.
One of the best fights I've run yet with T20 occurred on a high law world where possession of any weapon was illegal. The PCs decided to obey the law, but got caught up in a fight with some rioting thugs that had pistols and knives. Even when they could have taken a gun off the bad guys, the PCs (wisely) decided to leave it on the ground and choose to fight unarmed. The end result was that when the cops turned up, they were let off with a warning about staying out of dangerous parts of the city - of course the PCs that was shot had a 2-3 day hospital visit.
I'm personally more worried about security guards being allowed to carry guns - IMHO there is far too few restrictions on their licensing, and several recent news articles have uncovered widespread unreported 'theft' or 'loss' of both guns and ammo from security firms.
---
IMTU the police vary widely from planet to planet. There are some where they are more like British bobbies, and others where they are more like heavily armed enforcers for totalitarian authorities.
Most of my police forces have access to the non-lethal weapons and prefer arming their officers with those, whilst having access to more serious armaments for rapid response forces.
One of the best fights I've run yet with T20 occurred on a high law world where possession of any weapon was illegal. The PCs decided to obey the law, but got caught up in a fight with some rioting thugs that had pistols and knives. Even when they could have taken a gun off the bad guys, the PCs (wisely) decided to leave it on the ground and choose to fight unarmed. The end result was that when the cops turned up, they were let off with a warning about staying out of dangerous parts of the city - of course the PCs that was shot had a 2-3 day hospital visit.
Part of the thing many of you might not be quite tuned in to when I discuss the particulars of the Canadian situation - the RCMP tends to police a lot of rural areas. Areas where the rapid response team is 45 minutes away. Urban environments are different - the ERT team may be less than 10 mins away. But out in the country, it could be 45 mins or an hour away (or longer). And if there is only one and it is busy, you're SOL.
In those kinds of situations, your cop himself better have a minimum level of lethal force (pistol, rifle and shotgun) available, or else he's in a world of hurt.
So just consider urban and rural policing are not the same situation. Also, any domestic in a rural situation and you can almost gaurantee that a farmer has a rifle for dealing with varmints.
I'm not arguing against non-lethal solutions, I just argue in favour of a continuum of response. Flexibility is (IMO) the key to general duty policing in the kind of sparsely populated worlds that many traveller worlds are.
High pop worlds probably have way more cops and way more options on call at short notice.
Note that in Mayerthorpe, the 4 RCMP members who were gunned down represented more than 1/3rd of that detachment. If you figure others would have been off duty, etc. Well, you get the picture. The ERT team took hours to arrive on scene from Edmonton. That's the reality of rural policing on frontier planets too, I believe.
Great Britain is a different situation, largerly. England hasn't been a frontier for a long time. The vast bulk of its population is urban or suburban. Even the 'rural' parts are often within a reasonable trip of 'urban' reinforcements. (Now, British roads suck sometimes, but air assets can arrive reasonably quickly)
Also, the RCMP operates at a far different ratio of police to policed. I believe at one point, I heard someone say 1 police per thousand was about ideal. Vancouver I think might have been about 1 to 1400. It was considered 'well staffed'. RCMP tend to be about 1 police per two thousand. A good night was 2 active calls per officer in the detachments I worked in. A bad night was 5. Then people wonder why the cops don't treat 'theft' as a major rush-to-it crime if there is no bad guy around - they're too busy responding to 'person affecting' crimes elsewhere. If you aren't in lethal danger, you can file a report on Monday. The cops have other (possibly life and death) fish to fry. And places like Baltimore in the US have trouble staffing to their 'textbook TO&E' levels due to payscale issues - they typically run 20-40% understrength.
So staffing levels will have something to do with how wide of a response capability an individual officer needs. If he doesn't have enough help or backup, his best equalizers are training and a wider range of options to respond with.
Just some extra things to consider.
In those kinds of situations, your cop himself better have a minimum level of lethal force (pistol, rifle and shotgun) available, or else he's in a world of hurt.
So just consider urban and rural policing are not the same situation. Also, any domestic in a rural situation and you can almost gaurantee that a farmer has a rifle for dealing with varmints.
I'm not arguing against non-lethal solutions, I just argue in favour of a continuum of response. Flexibility is (IMO) the key to general duty policing in the kind of sparsely populated worlds that many traveller worlds are.
High pop worlds probably have way more cops and way more options on call at short notice.
Note that in Mayerthorpe, the 4 RCMP members who were gunned down represented more than 1/3rd of that detachment. If you figure others would have been off duty, etc. Well, you get the picture. The ERT team took hours to arrive on scene from Edmonton. That's the reality of rural policing on frontier planets too, I believe.
Great Britain is a different situation, largerly. England hasn't been a frontier for a long time. The vast bulk of its population is urban or suburban. Even the 'rural' parts are often within a reasonable trip of 'urban' reinforcements. (Now, British roads suck sometimes, but air assets can arrive reasonably quickly)
Also, the RCMP operates at a far different ratio of police to policed. I believe at one point, I heard someone say 1 police per thousand was about ideal. Vancouver I think might have been about 1 to 1400. It was considered 'well staffed'. RCMP tend to be about 1 police per two thousand. A good night was 2 active calls per officer in the detachments I worked in. A bad night was 5. Then people wonder why the cops don't treat 'theft' as a major rush-to-it crime if there is no bad guy around - they're too busy responding to 'person affecting' crimes elsewhere. If you aren't in lethal danger, you can file a report on Monday. The cops have other (possibly life and death) fish to fry. And places like Baltimore in the US have trouble staffing to their 'textbook TO&E' levels due to payscale issues - they typically run 20-40% understrength.
So staffing levels will have something to do with how wide of a response capability an individual officer needs. If he doesn't have enough help or backup, his best equalizers are training and a wider range of options to respond with.
Just some extra things to consider.
Part of the thing many of you might not be quite tuned in to when I discuss the particulars of the Canadian situation - the RCMP tends to police a lot of rural areas. Areas where the rapid response team is 45 minutes away. Urban environments are different - the ERT team may be less than 10 mins away. But out in the country, it could be 45 mins or an hour away (or longer). And if there is only one and it is busy, you're SOL.
In those kinds of situations, your cop himself better have a minimum level of lethal force (pistol, rifle and shotgun) available, or else he's in a world of hurt.
So just consider urban and rural policing are not the same situation. Also, any domestic in a rural situation and you can almost gaurantee that a farmer has a rifle for dealing with varmints.
I'm not arguing against non-lethal solutions, I just argue in favour of a continuum of response. Flexibility is (IMO) the key to general duty policing in the kind of sparsely populated worlds that many traveller worlds are.
High pop worlds probably have way more cops and way more options on call at short notice.
Note that in Mayerthorpe, the 4 RCMP members who were gunned down represented more than 1/3rd of that detachment. If you figure others would have been off duty, etc. Well, you get the picture. The ERT team took hours to arrive on scene from Edmonton. That's the reality of rural policing on frontier planets too, I believe.
Great Britain is a different situation, largerly. England hasn't been a frontier for a long time. The vast bulk of its population is urban or suburban. Even the 'rural' parts are often within a reasonable trip of 'urban' reinforcements. (Now, British roads suck sometimes, but air assets can arrive reasonably quickly)
Also, the RCMP operates at a far different ratio of police to policed. I believe at one point, I heard someone say 1 police per thousand was about ideal. Vancouver I think might have been about 1 to 1400. It was considered 'well staffed'. RCMP tend to be about 1 police per two thousand. A good night was 2 active calls per officer in the detachments I worked in. A bad night was 5. Then people wonder why the cops don't treat 'theft' as a major rush-to-it crime if there is no bad guy around - they're too busy responding to 'person affecting' crimes elsewhere. If you aren't in lethal danger, you can file a report on Monday. The cops have other (possibly life and death) fish to fry. And places like Baltimore in the US have trouble staffing to their 'textbook TO&E' levels due to payscale issues - they typically run 20-40% understrength.
So staffing levels will have something to do with how wide of a response capability an individual officer needs. If he doesn't have enough help or backup, his best equalizers are training and a wider range of options to respond with.
Just some extra things to consider.
In those kinds of situations, your cop himself better have a minimum level of lethal force (pistol, rifle and shotgun) available, or else he's in a world of hurt.
So just consider urban and rural policing are not the same situation. Also, any domestic in a rural situation and you can almost gaurantee that a farmer has a rifle for dealing with varmints.
I'm not arguing against non-lethal solutions, I just argue in favour of a continuum of response. Flexibility is (IMO) the key to general duty policing in the kind of sparsely populated worlds that many traveller worlds are.
High pop worlds probably have way more cops and way more options on call at short notice.
Note that in Mayerthorpe, the 4 RCMP members who were gunned down represented more than 1/3rd of that detachment. If you figure others would have been off duty, etc. Well, you get the picture. The ERT team took hours to arrive on scene from Edmonton. That's the reality of rural policing on frontier planets too, I believe.
Great Britain is a different situation, largerly. England hasn't been a frontier for a long time. The vast bulk of its population is urban or suburban. Even the 'rural' parts are often within a reasonable trip of 'urban' reinforcements. (Now, British roads suck sometimes, but air assets can arrive reasonably quickly)
Also, the RCMP operates at a far different ratio of police to policed. I believe at one point, I heard someone say 1 police per thousand was about ideal. Vancouver I think might have been about 1 to 1400. It was considered 'well staffed'. RCMP tend to be about 1 police per two thousand. A good night was 2 active calls per officer in the detachments I worked in. A bad night was 5. Then people wonder why the cops don't treat 'theft' as a major rush-to-it crime if there is no bad guy around - they're too busy responding to 'person affecting' crimes elsewhere. If you aren't in lethal danger, you can file a report on Monday. The cops have other (possibly life and death) fish to fry. And places like Baltimore in the US have trouble staffing to their 'textbook TO&E' levels due to payscale issues - they typically run 20-40% understrength.
So staffing levels will have something to do with how wide of a response capability an individual officer needs. If he doesn't have enough help or backup, his best equalizers are training and a wider range of options to respond with.
Just some extra things to consider.
Israeli criminals rarely kill cops; they usually bomb each other (yes, car bombs; sometimes they kill several bystanders as well as their target) or shoot at judges (the new favorite criminal passtime). The real threat to an Israeli cop's life comes from terrorists; due to shortages in military manpower inside Israel, as too much of the military is deployed in the territories, cops do alot of anti-terrorist work, such as setting roadblocks and checkpoints, responding to terror threats and trying to prevent bombings. Ofcourse, response times in a small country such as Israel are short, but when a suspected suicide bomber is going to explode, you don't have much time to call for backup. Cops are armed here; armament varies, but usually consists of semi-auto pistols (I'm yet to see a revolver in this country out of a recreational firing range) or old M1 rifles, when cops in danger zones (especially borders or semi-official borders) get bulletproof jackets and assualt rifles (Galil MARs or M4's).
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Now, on to MTU. I've already discussed the Solar Triumvirate police system and the threats they face (gangs and terrorists, especially Matriarchate-funded ecoterrorists); these guys are well armed and well armored (pistol or SMG and mesh-equivalent uniforms, and a shotgun in the squad air/raft). Rapid-response teams and riot-cops are armed and armored to milspec (ACRs, cloth, maybe even Combat Armor).
The Alliance, which is about 90% frontier, uses a militia system, which also serves as the army reserve, and which is organized around an active Army cadre. So frontier police duty is somewhat of a wild west (or wild west myth) style: if the Sheriff (Army cadre officer) can't handle the criminal threat, he or she organizes a Posse (the militia) to deal with it. Ofcourse, an Army officer assigned to a militia cadre duty is still an Army officer, and usually has access to Cloth armor and to an ACR, for the very least; militia troops use flack jackets and Assault Rifles.
Alliance cops on the few dense population worlds use mostly dartguns (with fast-acting non-lethal paralyzing neurotoxins). Even if a civilian is accidentally hit by a dart, the worst thing that could happen to him is a few hours of sleep.
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Now, on to MTU. I've already discussed the Solar Triumvirate police system and the threats they face (gangs and terrorists, especially Matriarchate-funded ecoterrorists); these guys are well armed and well armored (pistol or SMG and mesh-equivalent uniforms, and a shotgun in the squad air/raft). Rapid-response teams and riot-cops are armed and armored to milspec (ACRs, cloth, maybe even Combat Armor).
The Alliance, which is about 90% frontier, uses a militia system, which also serves as the army reserve, and which is organized around an active Army cadre. So frontier police duty is somewhat of a wild west (or wild west myth) style: if the Sheriff (Army cadre officer) can't handle the criminal threat, he or she organizes a Posse (the militia) to deal with it. Ofcourse, an Army officer assigned to a militia cadre duty is still an Army officer, and usually has access to Cloth armor and to an ACR, for the very least; militia troops use flack jackets and Assault Rifles.
Alliance cops on the few dense population worlds use mostly dartguns (with fast-acting non-lethal paralyzing neurotoxins). Even if a civilian is accidentally hit by a dart, the worst thing that could happen to him is a few hours of sleep.
Israeli criminals rarely kill cops; they usually bomb each other (yes, car bombs; sometimes they kill several bystanders as well as their target) or shoot at judges (the new favorite criminal passtime). The real threat to an Israeli cop's life comes from terrorists; due to shortages in military manpower inside Israel, as too much of the military is deployed in the territories, cops do alot of anti-terrorist work, such as setting roadblocks and checkpoints, responding to terror threats and trying to prevent bombings. Ofcourse, response times in a small country such as Israel are short, but when a suspected suicide bomber is going to explode, you don't have much time to call for backup. Cops are armed here; armament varies, but usually consists of semi-auto pistols (I'm yet to see a revolver in this country out of a recreational firing range) or old M1 rifles, when cops in danger zones (especially borders or semi-official borders) get bulletproof jackets and assualt rifles (Galil MARs or M4's).
---
Now, on to MTU. I've already discussed the Solar Triumvirate police system and the threats they face (gangs and terrorists, especially Matriarchate-funded ecoterrorists); these guys are well armed and well armored (pistol or SMG and mesh-equivalent uniforms, and a shotgun in the squad air/raft). Rapid-response teams and riot-cops are armed and armored to milspec (ACRs, cloth, maybe even Combat Armor).
The Alliance, which is about 90% frontier, uses a militia system, which also serves as the army reserve, and which is organized around an active Army cadre. So frontier police duty is somewhat of a wild west (or wild west myth) style: if the Sheriff (Army cadre officer) can't handle the criminal threat, he or she organizes a Posse (the militia) to deal with it. Ofcourse, an Army officer assigned to a militia cadre duty is still an Army officer, and usually has access to Cloth armor and to an ACR, for the very least; militia troops use flack jackets and Assault Rifles.
Alliance cops on the few dense population worlds use mostly dartguns (with fast-acting non-lethal paralyzing neurotoxins). Even if a civilian is accidentally hit by a dart, the worst thing that could happen to him is a few hours of sleep.
---
Now, on to MTU. I've already discussed the Solar Triumvirate police system and the threats they face (gangs and terrorists, especially Matriarchate-funded ecoterrorists); these guys are well armed and well armored (pistol or SMG and mesh-equivalent uniforms, and a shotgun in the squad air/raft). Rapid-response teams and riot-cops are armed and armored to milspec (ACRs, cloth, maybe even Combat Armor).
The Alliance, which is about 90% frontier, uses a militia system, which also serves as the army reserve, and which is organized around an active Army cadre. So frontier police duty is somewhat of a wild west (or wild west myth) style: if the Sheriff (Army cadre officer) can't handle the criminal threat, he or she organizes a Posse (the militia) to deal with it. Ofcourse, an Army officer assigned to a militia cadre duty is still an Army officer, and usually has access to Cloth armor and to an ACR, for the very least; militia troops use flack jackets and Assault Rifles.
Alliance cops on the few dense population worlds use mostly dartguns (with fast-acting non-lethal paralyzing neurotoxins). Even if a civilian is accidentally hit by a dart, the worst thing that could happen to him is a few hours of sleep.
I think you need to consider the following:
How clean/honest is the law enforcement?
How much area does the officer has to cover?
How is the standard criminal armed?
How does the standard population act?
Aka New York city not my problem dude
or Andy Griffin's home town people
or the mythical 50's,60's Timmy is spray painting the building I going to whale the tar out of him, call Andy, and then his folks who are going to whale the tar out of him.
How clean/honest is the law enforcement?
How much area does the officer has to cover?
How is the standard criminal armed?
How does the standard population act?
Aka New York city not my problem dude
or Andy Griffin's home town people
or the mythical 50's,60's Timmy is spray painting the building I going to whale the tar out of him, call Andy, and then his folks who are going to whale the tar out of him.
I think you need to consider the following:
How clean/honest is the law enforcement?
How much area does the officer has to cover?
How is the standard criminal armed?
How does the standard population act?
Aka New York city not my problem dude
or Andy Griffin's home town people
or the mythical 50's,60's Timmy is spray painting the building I going to whale the tar out of him, call Andy, and then his folks who are going to whale the tar out of him.
How clean/honest is the law enforcement?
How much area does the officer has to cover?
How is the standard criminal armed?
How does the standard population act?
Aka New York city not my problem dude
or Andy Griffin's home town people
or the mythical 50's,60's Timmy is spray painting the building I going to whale the tar out of him, call Andy, and then his folks who are going to whale the tar out of him.
The one problem with the 'dartgun' is for almost every chemical compound, there is some chance of a lethal reaction. Even Dazzlers and Tasers have issues with siezures and heart attacks. I guess non-lethal really means 'significantly less lethal unless you have a particular vulnerability'.
This has become a problem as some cops get so used to the non-lethal effect of the taser/dazzler/spray, they end up overusing it.
As someone said, private security firms are more of a concern due to far lesser regulation (let's add bounty hunters to that equation too).
This has become a problem as some cops get so used to the non-lethal effect of the taser/dazzler/spray, they end up overusing it.
As someone said, private security firms are more of a concern due to far lesser regulation (let's add bounty hunters to that equation too).
The one problem with the 'dartgun' is for almost every chemical compound, there is some chance of a lethal reaction. Even Dazzlers and Tasers have issues with siezures and heart attacks. I guess non-lethal really means 'significantly less lethal unless you have a particular vulnerability'.
This has become a problem as some cops get so used to the non-lethal effect of the taser/dazzler/spray, they end up overusing it.
As someone said, private security firms are more of a concern due to far lesser regulation (let's add bounty hunters to that equation too).
This has become a problem as some cops get so used to the non-lethal effect of the taser/dazzler/spray, they end up overusing it.
As someone said, private security firms are more of a concern due to far lesser regulation (let's add bounty hunters to that equation too).
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I think I'd rather take my chances of surviving a "mistaken identity" scenario with a trigger happy cop armed with a dart gun or taser rather than a 9mm or .40 
I notice that in MT the tranq rounds from early stellar TL snub sistols etc. can cause death by overdose. The TL16 neural weapons can also occasionally kill.
The ideal weapon for CT police to carry may be the ultrasonic stun carbine from CTDA Divine Intervention.
I notice that in MT the tranq rounds from early stellar TL snub sistols etc. can cause death by overdose. The TL16 neural weapons can also occasionally kill.
The ideal weapon for CT police to carry may be the ultrasonic stun carbine from CTDA Divine Intervention.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I think I'd rather take my chances of surviving a "mistaken identity" scenario with a trigger happy cop armed with a dart gun or taser rather than a 9mm or .40
I notice that in MT the tranq rounds from early stellar TL snub sistols etc. can cause death by overdose. The TL16 neural weapons can also occasionally kill.
The ideal weapon for CT police to carry may be the ultrasonic stun carbine from CTDA Divine Intervention.
I notice that in MT the tranq rounds from early stellar TL snub sistols etc. can cause death by overdose. The TL16 neural weapons can also occasionally kill.
The ideal weapon for CT police to carry may be the ultrasonic stun carbine from CTDA Divine Intervention.
