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Why all the hatas hatin' on MGT?

OK, I'll bite. Alternate Imperium. Fixed rates. Not just any fixed rates, but the specific fixed rates set forth in the CT rules. How does it actually work? Who benefits and how do they enforce in the face of the people that suffer from it? How much does Tukera charge for mid passage on its jump-3 and jump-4 liners? How much does Al Morai charge on their jump-3 and jump-4 liners? How much does a subsector-wide line charge on theirs? If it's the fixed rates, how do they stay in business? If they need to subsidize the freight and passenger rates, why do they stay in that business? If someone else subsidize them, who, how, and why? Who uses jump-1 ships for anything other than 1-parsec distances? That is to say, what customers pay to use jump-1 vessels for freight and transport on anything other than 1-parsec distances?

By not accepting freight except last minute. By filling the hold with optimized* spec trade goods, and use of a local office and warehouse-in-orbit, one pushes down to 9 days per jump, instead of a tramp's 14 days.

By using 3 jumps per month, the PP Fuel, Salaries, Maintenance, and annual payment portions are reduced by 1/3 per jump, thus reducing some 85% of the costs by 30% so... (0.15)+(0.85x.66)=0.71...
Cargo needs to value at 2350/ton profit to be worthwhile. Cherry picking over a 4-5 week run allows that easily, so the costs there are reduced.
And the Passengers are also reduced... just figuring based on cargo losses, MP is losing Cr109 and HP by 489 per jump before refigureing Steward and Medic salaries down by 1/3.

Refiguring the MP based upon the J3 TL15 design, accounting for reduced LS, steward and medic, as well as the replaced cargo space:
4.033 CTE x 2068*.71
LS: KCr2 x 1.017 x.66
Salary: KCr2x0.017 x.66
MP KCr1.042 x.66
maint KCr 0.021 x.66

Cr5923 per jump on 3 jumps per month. Makes a handy profit.
At TL 13+, 2,630 instead of 2068... cost is Cr370 more per ton... for Cr7413 per MP, so MP is still a profit, at 3 jumps per month.

HP at J3 TL 15
4.533 CTE x 2068*.71 = 6656
LS: KCr2 x 1.267 x.66 = 1672
Salary: KCr2x0.267 x.66 = 353
MP KCr1.104 x.66 = 729
maint KCr 0.026 x.66 = 17

For about Cr 6688 per jump per HP.

Making that extra jump per month REALLY makes a difference.

J4, at TL 15, is 11695.7 just in cargo equivalent. Not gonna happen.



But that only works if you have the infrastructure in place. A tramp won't.

J4, I can only justify cargo, and then only as part of a J3 based network, and only with trader 3's or better at each and every hub, and if possible, broker 3's.

The benefit to government of discouraging non-scheduled non-route-driven J2+ is one of discouraging frequent and unregulated travel. The MegaCorps have a vested interest in not letting the upstarts get too big; they can afford the extra infrastructure to support longer runs at the same price.
 
By not accepting freight except last minute.
So who does carry the freight the powerful, influential high-population worlds want to get regularily?

By filling the hold with optimized* spec trade goods, and use of a local office and warehouse-in-orbit, one pushes down to 9 days per jump, instead of a tramp's 14 days.

By using 3 jumps per month, the PP Fuel, Salaries, Maintenance, and annual payment portions are reduced by 1/3 per jump, thus reducing some 85% of the costs by 30% so... (0.15)+(0.85x.66)=0.71...
Sounds good to me. Of course, canon says everyone spends 14 days per jump, but I won't insist if you don't.

Cargo needs to value at 2350/ton profit to be worthwhile. Cherry picking over a 4-5 week run allows that easily, so the costs there are reduced.
So the companies don't actually carry freight and passengers, only speculative cargo? Isn't that contrary to canon?

And the Passengers are also reduced... just figuring based on cargo losses, MP is losing Cr109 and HP by 489 per jump before refigureing Steward and Medic salaries down by 1/3.
I don't think I follow you here. Are you charging Cr8000 for a ticket for jump-3 and jump-4?

Refiguring the MP based upon the J3 TL15 design, accounting for reduced LS, steward and medic, as well as the replaced cargo space:
4.033 CTE x 2068*.71
LS: KCr2 x 1.017 x.66
Salary: KCr2x0.017 x.66
MP KCr1.042 x.66
maint KCr 0.021 x.66

Cr5923 per jump on 3 jumps per month. Makes a handy profit.
I don't follow at all. You're condensing your argument far too much for me to grasp it.

At TL 13+, 2,630 instead of 2068... cost is Cr370 more per ton... for Cr7413 per MP, so MP is still a profit, at 3 jumps per month.
You're saying that the costs of a jump-3 is Cr7413 per middle passenger, right? Are you paying a return on your own 20% investment in addition to servicing the 80% bank loan? Because if you're not, no one will invest in shipping, they'll open banks instead.

Making that extra jump per month REALLY makes a difference.
Agreed, but it makes the same difference for all regular ships, regardless of jump number. Which means that a jump-3 ship is charging effectively one third of the per parsec price of a jump-1 ship. Why is anyone using jump-1 ships to carry anything at distances greater than one parsec?

J4, at TL 15, is 11695.7 just in cargo equivalent. Not gonna happen.
And yet, canon informs us that it happens all the time. Why are you allowed to ignore the bits of canon that don't fit your ideas but I'm not allowed to ignore the bits that don't fit mine?

But that only works if you have the infrastructure in place. A tramp won't.
No, but even a fledgeling line will. Compared to the cost of ships, a factor, a staff, and warehouse space is peanuts.

J4, I can only justify cargo, and then only as part of a J3 based network, and only with trader 3's or better at each and every hub, and if possible, broker 3's.
The jump-4 ships we have canonical evidence for carries passengers. IIRC both passengers and freight, but definitely passengers.

The benefit to government of discouraging non-scheduled non-route-driven J2+ is one of discouraging frequent and unregulated travel.
So no free traders, then? Truly an alternate Imperium. I don't see the benefit to roleplaying, though.

The MegaCorps have a vested interest in not letting the upstarts get too big; they can afford the extra infrastructure to support longer runs at the same price.
A sector-wide line presumably can do the same in thier own sector and subsector-wide lines in their own subsectors. If they couldn't, they wouldn't exist.

And I'd still like to know just what the laws are and how they're enforced. It sounds to me like you're creating a huge black market with very powerful interests in flouting the regs.


Hans
 
The J4 passengers might be a political gain for the line. Or might charging more.

I've shown the COSTS, not the prices... but so long as those costs are under the prices (which for J3 passengers, they are, and for J4, they are not) then there is no issue.

And the Rules don't require a 14 day cycle; they state that 14 days is both the norm, and comprised of 7 days ±1 day in jump, and 5 days to find cargoes. That leaves 1 day on either side for travel, which only takes half a day in most systems...

By using factors on planet with large cash reserves, one can maximize their fleet time.

But the costs for a fledgling are rather high. You need a facility at each serviced port to make the shift to 3/month. The warehouse needs maintenance and maintenance crew (probably about Cr1000/mo, low soc), brokers and traders (Cr2000 each or more, tho' the brokerage fees pay most of that). You also need your own cargo rousts, because local port ones take 1d6 days to deliver... and the cargo-movers to enable their work. And a chunk of tarmac. Same for fuel delivery. Starts to add up really fast.

The facility does have the ability to offload surplus cargo for local profit, too...

I figure, to make it work, you need 2 ships per facility minimum, and 2.5x a single ship's cargo volume in warehousing per ship serviced, and if the world isn't habitable, attached hangarage.

And, to make it worth while, MCr0.1 per Td of warehouse as an operational investment capital base. Preferably MCr1 per Td. For Optimal, MCr50 per Td.


A fledgling line needs to be establishing at least two of these bases. And that for just a single link. They gain benefit by having more links and thus more options, and this ships, as well... and in a price fixed environment, most will fall to the most profit. And that varies by jump number and number of links, as well. No J1 hub can have more than 6 links... but a J2 can have (in theory) 18, and a J3 36. You put whatever is highest margin for destination on the ship headed that way, unless it's full.

I ran a game like that once. The paper trail was a nightmare, but it made money. They ran a J2 fledgling line. Once they had enough to emplace factors at their serviced worlds, they already had 8 ships, and served 3 worlds in a triangle, on a 9.5 day stable schedule. The two extra provided an additional mid-cycle jump on one of those. They bought #9 to cover Annual maintenance down times, after a particularly good haul of computers. (100% cash down.)

I've never had a group with adequate up front cash fail to turn a profit in a J2 ship by tramping. Without factors, however, I've never had one succeed on a route.

As for a black market: if breaking the maximum price regs gets your ship siezed, you're unlikely to risk it. Moreover, you won't be able to finance a ship unless you can show a profit is likely. The black market in shipping isn't that high... the additional costs of providing the service drive demand down, and the price already requires a large standing investment of capital (more in liquid and cargo than in ships). Unless you can get that big whopping start, you're not going to get the ships anyway.

Gotta have the finances to be able to break that law, and the people who NEED to go faster have cost-prohibitive means of getting there anyway, usually integral. But if you have the finances to be able to break it, odds are, you have the finances to be able to comply with it at a profit anyway... we're talking MCr100+ to make a go of a single J3 ship... which, tramping with a trader 3+, can cherry pick sale worlds from usually 12-18 destinations.

One other benefit of no J5+ civil traffic: you can't outrun the Navy.
 
IMO starship economics is partially or entrely broken in all editions.

I've always ignored it - Can't recall trying to run a 'free trader' campaign as such, since 'bean-counting in space' is such a pain.

So I tended to run games where the ship (if there was one) was paid for mostly off-camera, but equally it wasn't possible to find two adjacent planets and buy cargoes that nobody else ever though of, like electronic components, and become fabulously wealthy.

If there was trade, it was a plot thing more than a strictly by the rules exercise. Ie, I ignored the trade rules and wrote adventures instead.

I guess starship trade appeals to the same people who like designing huge areas of space with UWPs, or who build stuff all the time. It's not for me, but it it had been I probably would have had more of an issue with it.
 
The J4 passengers might be a political gain for the line. Or might charging more.
But the moment you're willing to break the canonical rules, you're no longer justifying your fixed prices on the grounds that it preserves canon, you're stating a personal preference. Which is just as good as my personal preference, but not a whit better. And suddenly unsupported by canon.

I've shown the COSTS, not the prices... but so long as those costs are under the prices (which for J3 passengers, they are, and for J4, they are not) then there is no issue.
Yes, there is, since J4 is canonical.

And the Rules don't require a 14 day cycle; they state that 14 days is both the norm...
And that's not requiring a 14 day cycle? "Commercial starships usually make two jumps per month." [TTB:49] Not a word about "...unless they're run by companies". On reflection, your willingness to ignore that canonical statement is just as much a violation of canon as my willingness to do the same.

...and comprised of 7 days ±1 day in jump, and 5 days to find cargoes. That leaves 1 day on either side for travel, which only takes half a day in most systems...
Yes, indeed. not a word about factors and warehouses and long-term freight contracts. Which IMO is solid proof that the trade rules are simplifications of a complex situation. So is there any real reason to believe that the fixed prices isn't a simplification too? I admit that if you could come up with something that adhered strictly to canon and explained everything, it would be good enough reason to stick to it. But you can't. you have to invoke a three jumps per month cycle to make jump-3 work. The fact that it's a very reasonable thing to invoke is besides the point. It's not canon. And you can't make jump-4 work at all.

(Nor do I know yet that you can make jump-3 work. You didn't answer my question about allowing for a return on the owner's own invesment. Did you allow for that? Please don't overlook this question again. It makes quite a difference to the required profit.)

But the costs for a fledgling are rather high. You need a facility at each serviced port to make the shift to 3/month. The warehouse needs maintenance and maintenance crew (probably about Cr1000/mo, low soc), brokers and traders (Cr2000 each or more, tho' the brokerage fees pay most of that). You also need your own cargo rousts, because local port ones take 1d6 days to deliver... and the cargo-movers to enable their work. And a chunk of tarmac. Same for fuel delivery. Starts to add up really fast.
A fledgeling line with two canonically financed 400T type R merchants has invested MCr40 in its fleet. If it's two type M liners it's a bit over MCr100. Just how much does those costs of yours mount up to?

Now, granted, my fledgling lines would use obsolescent 40 year old ships and thus invest only a quater the sum, but that's not canon. And it would still be a double-digit megacredit investment

Subsector-wide lines are another matter. Oberlindes own 130 ships (in 1105; goes up to 200 in 1106) ranging up to 5000T. I think it can afford factors.

I've never had a group with adequate up front cash fail to turn a profit in a J2 ship by tramping.
Well, that's just another bit of evidence that the trade rules are unrealistic. According to canonical background information, 9 out of 10 fledgling lines fail in the first ten years. Yet if the trade rules are to be belived, all you need is enough money to buy a ship and provide adequate up front cash and you can't fail to turn a profit. And there must be thousands of multi-millionaires on each high-popualtion world with the money to finance such an operation.

As for a black market: if breaking the maximum price regs gets your ship seized, you're unlikely to risk it.
But if the profits to be made on a black market are high enough, you're unlikely to have your ship seized, since you will have the money to corrupt and kill anyone who tries to get in your way. Real life example: The Sicilian Mafia.

Moreover, you won't be able to finance a ship unless you can show a profit is likely.
And you won't be willing to finance it yourself unless you believe a profit is likely. So far we agree.

The black market in shipping isn't that high... the additional costs of providing the service drive demand down, and the price already requires a large standing investment of capital (more in liquid and cargo than in ships).
But here you're stating unsupported assumptions. If a jump-3 ship can make money over three parsec distances, a jump-1 ship that charges the same rate over one parsec distances is making HUGE profits.

Akerut maintains a fleet of 50 5000T ships with a cargo hold of 2911T. They make 35 jups per year (your assumption), which means they move 50*2900*35 = 5,075,000 (let's round that down to 5,000,000) dT per year at Cr1000 per dT and at an operating cost of... what, Cr400 per dT? That's a profit of
MCr3000 per year. Anyone who could undercut that and charge Cr900 per dT could earn a profit of MCr2500 per year. And that's just one of the companies in a pretty low-population subsector; unfortunately the information about the other companies is less exact. But take that and scale it up for the the trade between Rhylanor and Porozlo alone and we're talking many billions at stake. So Rhylanor-Porozlo Lines sets up a daughter corporation on Rhylanor and another on Porozlo; the one on Porozlo buys, sells to RPL, who transports it as speculative trade and sells it to the one on Rhylanor (and vice versa) for a "profit" of Cr900 per dT, and all three companies pay dividends to the same owners. And any ship trying to charge Cr1000 per dT between Rhylanor and Porozlo is going to find a dearth of freight. And the Imperium won't care, because the people who own RPL are the exact same kind of people as the ones who own Tukera stock. So clamping down on RPL will please Tukera stockholding nobles but anger RPL stockholding nobles.

Come to that, the owner of RPL is just as likely to be one of the other megacorporations.
Gotta have the finances to be able to break that law, and the people who NEED to go faster have cost-prohibitive means of getting there anyway, usually integral. But if you have the finances to be able to break it, odds are, you have the finances to be able to comply with it at a profit anyway... we're talking MCr100+ to make a go of a single J3 ship... which, tramping with a trader 3+, can cherry pick sale worlds from usually 12-18 destinations.
It doesn't work like that. If you artificially distort the market, it will put pressure on it. There is only so much profit to be made, and there will always be people who aren't getting what they consider to be their fair share. It's all very well to say that the megacorporations have an interest in keeping prices fixed, but they're competing against each other, so they have a countervailing interest in getting a bigger market share. 20% of a slightly smaller pie beats 8% of a slightly bigger one any day.

One other benefit of no J5+ civil traffic: you can't outrun the Navy.
You can't anyway. The Navy has jump-6 couriers. On the other hand, there are a large number of people who can afford to pay for jump-6 travel by passenger liner but not to have a private jump-6 yacht. They'll want jump-6 liners to travel on.


Hans
 
Our games tended to gloss over space economics. Trade as a concept is only useful as part of the role-playing game.

For me, the printed trade rules seem better suited to solo play or offline play, or for simulation. As MJD said, for generating scads of UWPs and mapping their interactions, which is similar to designing starship squadrons rather than role-playing.
 
The word 'canon' has raised its head here.

This is a problem that I wrestled with, one way and another, during my long sojourn as a Traveller author.

"This is broken and doesn't make any sense"
"But it's canon"
"Yes, but it's nonsense. It's an artifact of a set of rules somebody made up decades ago to let people play a game. It's not meant to be a working model of interstellar commerce, or population distribition, or actual astrohysics, or whatever"
"But it's canon."
"Yes, and you have to ignore it in order to make the setting believeable"
"But it's CANON!"

Blah, repeat.

Traveller canon is nonsensical and entirely contradictory in places. I know this better than anyone who didn't spend years writing around the really broken parts.

The whole thing desperately needs to be torn down and re-imagined with the aim of creating workable results rather than conforming to elegant dice mechanics. Same goes for both rules and setting.

Or else the user has to take the approach that was taken when creating it all - look at the pieces, not the whole picture. Ignore the parts that don't fit and just play a game.
 
The word 'canon' has raised its head here.

This is a problem that I wrestled with, one way and another, during my long sojourn as a Traveller author.

"This is broken and doesn't make any sense"
"But it's canon"
"Yes, but it's nonsense.

Great & accurate summation. The biggest shame is that it wouldn't be hard to fix so that inanities didn't abound.

Maybe, if the OGL gets expanded...
 
Sorry, I didn't mean to restart the trade argument (both sides have good points) but only to point out Mongoose had a chance to remake standard shipping rates and ship costs to make some game level reason for why there are free traders, but didn't.
 
Sorry, I didn't mean to restart the trade argument (both sides have good points) but only to point out Mongoose had a chance to remake standard shipping rates and ship costs to make some game level reason for why there are free traders, but didn't.

No problem. Good point re MGT. I wonder if Marc is going to fix this critical flaw using T5?
 
Too early to tell, but early indications are not promising.




Have any of the play test reports queried/addressed this? Was there an answer?*

*I don't know if this is a formalized procedure or, purely ad hoc and fragmented.
 
Well the last I saw of T5 (over a year ago) was if you played the merchant with some starting credit (around 100KCr) and a ship (Like merchant class, or 100 ton of cargo space) that one could play out a year of speculating/Jumping between several worlds that have different trade codes and usually pay off your ship by the end of the first year.

That was a bit too much for my likes.

But then I never had a bad roll, most were average to good rolls for cargo.

Dave chase
 
The word 'canon' has raised its head here.

The word "canon" is used more often than not to defend the classic Traveller rules set by MWM et. al. against possible comparisons with any currently licensed Traveller products.

Another argument is that since no one "plays" Traveller anymore, there are also no referees for the game. So the point about being canon or not becomes moot.
 
The word "canon" is used more often than not to defend the classic Traveller rules set by MWM et. al. against possible comparisons with any currently licensed Traveller products.
Really? I usually see it as a shorthand for "the body of common background material that it is a good idea to stick to if you want to be able to use material others produce and for others to be able to use the material you produce".

Unless there are specific reasons to change something, it is generally less disruptive to stick to the "facts" that people have known for 30 years than to invent something different. Please note the qualifier. If a 30 year old "fact" is not self-consistent or if it contradicts another 30 year old fact, or is bad for roleplaying purposes, then the sooner it gets changed (or the contradicting "fact" changed), the better. And if someone comes up with something that is a vast improvement (not just a minor improvement), a retcon is perfectly justified. But change because the new author likes his version a bit better? Bad. Change because one didn't bother to get access to major previously published treatments of one's subject? Ungood.

My early Mongoose-"bashing" was due to my mistaken belief that some changes introduced by Mongoose were sloppy mistakes. When I was told that they were deliberate, I stopped bashing. I still didn't like the changes (still don't), but Mongoose had every right to make them (with Marc Miller's blessing, of course ;)).

Another argument is that since no one "plays" Traveller anymore, there are also no referees for the game. So the point about being canon or not becomes moot.
Unless one is interested in the creative aspect of the Traveller Universe for its own sake.


Hans
 
regarding the "passage" vouchers .... are they really the regulated prices for tickets ?

I always thought they were prepaid tickets like military travel vouchers when received in chargen and were thus used as a convenient "quality of service" tag for the trade/passenger system.

I can see it being extended to imperial officials commandeering transport from a tramp on an emergency basis but traveller in all its editions has been free trade based so Imperium wide fixed prices just doesnt fit
 
regarding the "passage" vouchers .... are they really the regulated prices for tickets ?
Either that or a game artifact. They've been interpreted as the former for 30 years. What I wrote is a suggestion for interpreting them the other way. Nothing official.

I always thought they were prepaid tickets like military travel vouchers when received in chargen and were thus used as a convenient "quality of service" tag for the trade/passenger system.
They're explicitly not merely jump-1 vouchers. That's the root of the whole controversy. They can be used to pay for one jump of any length.

I can see it being extended to imperial officials commandeering transport from a tramp on an emergency basis but traveller in all its editions has been free trade based so Imperium wide fixed prices just doesnt fit.
You believe that and I believe that, but unfortunately we're not in charge of publishing Traveller ;).


Hans
 
One of the problems with Traveller, both in terms of background and rules, is the perceived need to codify everything precisely. A starport code could be a rule of thumb guide (class B - good but not excellent) but instead it's a precise definition of exactly what is there.

Add that to the UWP generation system and you have a setup whereby canon (ie published information) states that X thousands of people are needed to run a Class A port, and there's a Class A port on this pointless rockball in the middle of nowhere. Which has a planetary population of 17 people.

Yes, we know that port pop is not counted in planetary pop, but what are all these people doing there? Explaining that as a one-off might be interesting, but explaiing it 58 times in a given sector is another thing entirely.

Class E port. You can't get fuel.
It's a desert world with no gas giants.

And it's on a major main used by jump1 traffic. So canon stays. But that's impossible; the out-of-fuel ships must be backed up to Deneb by now.

But this is the sort of thing that you get when you interpret data strictly the way the rules tell you to. Which means in the end you have to ignore part of the rules or part of the background that's impossible if you believe the rules.

What Traveller really needed was a set of rule-of-thumb guides, not an OCD gazette to exactly what's supposed to be present for a given code.

The single biggest change I would like to see in any version is a loosening of the interpretation of all those codes, OR a change to a system that created workable ones.
 
The word "canon" is used more often than not to defend the classic Traveller rules set by MWM et. al. against possible comparisons with any currently licensed Traveller products.

Another argument is that since no one "plays" Traveller anymore, there are also no referees for the game. So the point about being canon or not becomes moot.


Canon != rules

Canon is the background material, the "What happened when and where and Who was involved" of the universe. Not the rules engine beneath it. Canon is "What races exist, how does FTL and STL drives work, what is the 3I etc.". It has nothing to do with what dice to roll or how to do CharGen.

Travellers timeline advanced with the versions from 1105 (CT)->1116(MT)->1125(Hard Times)->1200(TNE) but each setting could be easily used independent of the rules. I.e using TNE system and a Hard Times setting.
 
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