Why allow Criticism of MGT?

[fiat_knox]

Then perhaps people should turn that pernicious thread on its head, and reverse the trend of negativity.

Invade and threadjack the thread. Bring the more positive aspects of MGT to light. Keep pressing the point, to refute the aggression of the minority of fussketeers.

These are threads, not kingdoms and fiefdoms to be broken and annexed like terrain in a war. They're threads. Information. The fussketeers don't own them. And they can be corrected if you assert your right as a member of the forum to post here about any aspect of MGT that you like, even if it offends them. You don't need their permission to discuss MGT. They're not the boss of you.

Show them that.

 

[aramis]

Go actively thread-jacking, and you will get infractions. It's in the rules.

 

[atpollard]

Go actively thread-jacking, and you will get infractions. It's in the rules.

In the context being discussed, 'threadjacking' was more akin to retaking ground that the enemy had taken from you ... sort of 'threadjacking' a drifted topic back on topic.

 

[drh]

Is board-jacking in the rules too? If it is, perhaps you should do something about the people who don't like MGT and who can't stop telling people about how they don't like it on a board that was specifically set up (presumably) for constructive discussion of Mongoose Traveller.

I'm not saying that everyone needs to like MGT here, or even be positive about it all the time. What I don't like is that a handful of people seem to be devoting most of their time on CotI complaining about it and bashing it and telling other people that they're wrong to like it. And so many threads have been started here over this board's history that were intended from the start to be outlets for negativity, it's ridiculous (and those rants and tirades often spread to other threads too). It's completely unconstructive, tiresome, spiteful, annoying and unnecessary, and it's giving this board a really bad reputation everywhere else, and it's forcing people to just give up on this board too.

Instead of threatening people with infractions for trying to take this board back and turn it into something constructive, why don't you moderators do something about the overarching malaise here? Threaten the people who persistently drag this board down with their bitterness and cynicism, not the ones trying to drag it out of the sewers.

 

[Allensh]

Is board-jacking in the rules too? If it is, perhaps you should do something about the people who don't like MGT and who can't stop telling people about how they don't like it on a board that was specifically set up (presumably) for constructive discussion of Mongoose Traveller.

I'm not saying that everyone needs to like MGT here, or even be positive about it all the time. What I don't like is that a handful of people seem to be devoting most of their time on CotI complaining about it and bashing it and telling other people that they're wrong to like it. And so many threads have been started here over this board's history that were intended from the start to be outlets for negativity, it's ridiculous (and those rants and tirades often spread to other threads too). It's completely unconstructive, tiresome, spiteful, annoying and unnecessary, and it's giving this board a really bad reputation everywhere else, and it's forcing people to just give up on this board too.

Instead of threatening people with infractions for trying to take this board back and turn it into something constructive, why don't you moderators do something about the overarching malaise here? Threaten the people who persistently drag this board down with their bitterness and cynicism, not the ones trying to drag it out of the sewers.

read some of aramis' recent posts in this section. You'll see why this is unlikely to happen.

Allen

 

[drh]

read some of aramis' recent posts in this section. You'll see why this is unlikely to happen.

Yes, I notice that both Aramis and Andrew Boulton have openly admitted their dislike of MGT on this board several times. All that is going to do is undermine confidence in their impartiality as moderators. If their personal bias is getting in the way of making fair decisions about the tone and quality of discussion here, then nothing is going to change.

 

[drh]

And if we're talking about rules here, what about this one?

6) Do not undertake any action to the detriment of the community. The list of forbidden actions includes, but is not limited to:

* Trashing other forums, games, companies, or their products.

There seems to be very lax enforcement of this rule in this particular part of CotI. I charge that some individuals are intent on and have gotten away with repeatedly trashing MGT and Mongoose Traveller here, and that such actions are to the detriment of this community.

 

[far-trader]

If you see it, report it. Click the little caution triangle in the top right of the offending post. It's all you can and should do. Not retaliation, responding in kind, attacking, etc. It really is that simple. Community requires participation.

Just be sure it is a rule infraction and not just your bruised ego from seeing justified criticism of something you hold dear making it seem like more than it is.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Thunderchild:

"Why pay more for less" was NEVER a SUPPORTIVE thread. It started from the question "Why should I buy Mgt when I already have MT/can get MT for less money" that was actually aimed at a specific poster in that thread, not "the public" and addressed him by "nick"

The more is MegaTraveller that is a more complete rules set (Base + most of HighGuard + Vehicle construction) and currently sells in a bundle with some MegaTraveller background stuff for less than an Mgt rules book alone.

 

[Allensh]

If you see it, report it. Click the little caution triangle in the top right of the offending post. It's all you can and should do. Not retaliation, responding in kind, attacking, etc. It really is that simple. Community requires participation.

Just be sure it is a rule infraction and not just your bruised ego from seeing justified criticism of something you hold dear making it seem like more than it is.

and how many times do we have to keep seeing the same "justified criticisms" over and over again, even in threads were such criticism is off-topic?

Allen

 

[drh]

Actually, one part of those rules (highlighted below in bold) renders it all useless anyway. This is a quote in full:

6) Do not undertake any action to the detriment of the community (this is vague to there can be no loopholes). The list of forbidden actions includes, but is not limited to:

* Trying to pull fans away from here to other Traveller forums.
* Trashing other forums, games, companies, or their products.
* Attempting to solicit personal information.
* Encouraging breaking board rules.
* Arguing with Moderators or Administrators about these rules.

If it's "vague", it's completely worthless. Moderators can simply arbitrarily decide whether or not someone is "acting in detriment to the community" because there is no rigid definition of that behavior. Also, if it's "vague" that means it's FULL of loopholes, not that there aren't any!

We really don't need to use the report buttons. We know the mods are reading (and often actively participating in) those negative threads so they must be aware of the issues. They have to be aware of CotI's bad reputation elsewhere too because of those, so those threads and posters are clearly "acting in detriment to the community here". You've even had Mongoose Matt himself say that this board is "anything but friendly" (see http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=317591&postcount=372 )!

 

[Supplement Four]

They have to be aware of CotI's bad reputation elsewhere too because of those, so those threads and posters are clearly "acting in detriment to the community here". You've even had Mongoose Matt himself say that this board is "anything but friendly" (see http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=317591&postcount=372 )!

It's a quite nice place if you're a fan of what Traveller was and should be.

The original Planet of the Apes, with Charlton Heston, is a great movie.

Tim Burton's updated version, not so much.

Draw your own conclusions.

 

[mike wightman]

I have criticised T20 on these boards - in the hope that something better would come of it (broken bay weapon rules, no way of converting vehicle EPs to ship scale EPs to name just a couple).

Why can't I criticise MgT?

None of the Traveller rule sets is perfect and above criticism - no, not even CT supp 4

If the criticism is constructive where's the problem?

 

[drh]

It's a quite nice place if you're a fan of what Traveller was and should be.

Hey, here's the guy who thinks he knows what Traveller is and should be better than Mongoose and even Marc Miller himself! :rofl:

This is exactly the sort of ridiculous attitude that is poisoning this place, and that needs to be stamped out if this board is to rise above its bad reputation.

The original Planet of the Apes, with Charlton Heston, is a great movie.

Tim Burton's updated version, not so much.

And who are you to dictate to people what is "great" or not, exactly? Just because you don't like something or agree with something, that doesn't mean that others are wrong to like it or to agree with it.

 

[drh]

If the criticism is constructive where's the problem?

There isn't, if that's the case. I'm all for constructive criticism. The problem is that there is a lot of unconstructive criticism going on here.

 

[lucasdigital]

It's a quite nice place if you're a fan of what Traveller was and should be.

The original Planet of the Apes, with Charlton Heston, is a great movie.

Tim Burton's updated version, not so much.

Draw your own conclusions.

I'm a huge fan of Traveller, what it was, what it is, and what it will be ... when Marc finishes the latest/next opus. I can't say which edition of Traveller I like best, the editions I had the most gaming experience of are lost in the mists of time, I'm having a blast creating stuff for MgT though.

It pains me to see thread after thread in the MgT forum get bogged down with arguments. It pains me very greatly that members should hint that this isn't going to be a nice place for other members who don't share their opinions on Traveller. There's no reason why we can't all agree to love Traveller, and agree to disagree on issues of colour, flavour and focus.

 

[fiat_knox]

If it's "vague", it's completely worthless. Moderators can simply arbitrarily decide whether or not someone is "acting in detriment to the community" because there is no rigid definition of that behavior. Also, if it's "vague" that means it's FULL of loopholes, not that there aren't any!

Then you have to ask yourself this question, to determine how to judge whether the mods acted in the right or not. If the mods dump a correspondent from the forum, does everybody kick up a stink and ask plaintive questions of the mods about why that person is gone because he made the world sunnier with his wit and ready source of one liners? Or do they breathe a sigh of relief and continue about their business without having to look over their shoulders all the time any more?

If it's the latter, there's nothing vague about the moderators' decision. If they dump someone for being unreasonable, it's because they have perceived that person's behaviour as being unreasonable and detrimental to the welfare of other forumites.

I'm a mod on the Shadownessence WoD boards, and I've participated in plenty of staff arguments where a correspondent's future on the boards has rested on the line. I know the signs when somebody's deliberately kicking up a stink for the sake of it, simply because arguments amuse them. Even now, people still speak of the name of one former troll from that board with a fair measure of bruxation.

The rules are there to keep the peace. I know. Rules like these are up on fora all over the web, virtually word for word. They are not full of loopholes. They are very explicit and descriptive, and binding. Hell, I'm scared of the board rules on SnE and I'm a mod there!

My point being, this topic is the rallying point for everybody who wants the personal attacks and unreasonable behaviour to stop. We post here, as well as everywhere else on CoTI, because we love Traveller. We love gaming it, running it, and writing for it. Some of us have contributed to Mongoose - some of us are still trying to pitch to Mongoose - and some of us are writing stuff in PDFs for the game for third party publishers, with the license that Mongoose has granted us with the permission of Far Future Enterprises.

And what brings us all here to CoTI is that love of Traveller - MGT, here, in particular. We come here to meet up with fellow Traveller grognards who have gamed in any or all of the other Traveller platforms beyond MGT, who love to run stories about nuclear dampers, tactical movements of grav units across battlefields, the soul shattering crack of FGMP-15 fire unleashed and the flocks of Droyne catching the morning breeze over the skies of Regina.

Mongoose Traveller has all of the above elements, and then some. It's here, to stay, and that is something beyond the power of any of the detractors on this board.

So I'd personally recommend counselling discretion and wisdom, and allowing the pro-MGT crowd to enjoy the forum and the game in peace.

 

[tbeard1999]

So I'd personally recommend counselling discretion and wisdom, and allowing the pro-MGT crowd to enjoy the forum and the game in peace.

I'd recommend that folks recognize that:

1. A criticism of a game is not the same thing as a personal attack.

2. A "criticism" by definition is an unflattering statement.

3. Reasonable people can and do disagree on matters of personal taste.

4. A critic's alleged biases are irrelevant to the accuracy of his criticisms.

5. Most things can be improved far more effectively by criticism than by unconditional love.

6. The best antidote for inaccurate criticism is to address it, not prohibit it.

7. Mindless defense of something is just as obnoxious and witless as mindless hatred of something.

8. Pavlovian attacks on a game's critics are just as despicable as Pavlovian criticisms of the game.

 

[Allensh]

I have criticised T20 on these boards - in the hope that something better would come of it (broken bay weapon rules, no way of converting vehicle EPs to ship scale EPs to name just a couple).

Why can't I criticise MgT?

None of the Traveller rule sets is perfect and above criticism - no, not even CT supp 4

If the criticism is constructive where's the problem?

Again...criticism is not the problem, as I see it. Here's what I see as problems:

1.) Repeating the same criticisms over and over again for no reason other than to cause strife. This then ceases to become constructive criticism and becomes harassment.

2.) Doing so in threads where such criticisms have been specifically NOT asked for. Someone starts a thread about liking MgT,wanting to say positive things about it and next thing you know, someone decides to post one of their anti-MgT tirades and said thread is now ruined.

Allen

 

[Allensh]

I'd recommend that folks recognize that:

1. A criticism of a game is not the same thing as a personal attack.

2. A "criticism" by definition is an unflattering statement.

3. Reasonable people can and do disagree on matters of personal taste.

4. A critic's alleged biases are irrelevant to the accuracy of his criticisms.

5. Most things can be improved far more effectively by criticism than by unconditional love.

6. The best antidote for inaccurate criticism is to address it, not prohibit it.

7. Mindless defense of something is just as obnoxious and witless as mindless hatred of something.

8. Pavlovian attacks on a game's critics are just as despicable as Pavlovian criticisms of the game.

again...how many times do we have to hear the very same complaints over and over again before they cease to be criticism and become harassment?

And why do we have to have these criticism even in such threads where that criticism is specifically not wanted?

Allen