Why allow Criticism of MGT?

[drh]

Unlike the comment by S4, this response to it to be a direct attack on an individual.

:rofl: Look, this is what he actually said (here: http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=317237&postcount=298) in response to Mongoose Matt:

This is another mistake that Mongoose has made. Traveller is not a set of rules. In fact, a number of various rule systems have been assigned to Traveller in it incarnations of the past: d20; CT's free for d6 system; MT's more structured UTP; TNE's switch to d20's. T4's roll a fist-full of d6 low, system. The HERO System. GURPS.

All of those rule sets have been assigned to Traveller in the past, but Traveller as remained Traveller (well, for the most part).

What you're saying is that Traveller is a rule system, and the Traveller OTU is gaming universe.

This is a big mistake in thinking of Traveller that way.

If MWM is in on this, as you say, then he's downright wrong, too. It's as bad a mistake as naming a game Traveller 2300 when the acutal game didn't even take place in the same universe as Traveller.

Bad decision.

Right there, he's telling Mongoose and Marc Miller that they're wrong. Objectively wrong, at that, not just in his subjective opininon.


I'm sure not making a personal attack by reminding everyone of the ridiculousness of his statements. Who the hell is he to tell Mongoose or Marc Miller that they're "wrong" or "mistaken"? He doesn't agree with the approach they're taking, fine. He has every right to disagree with it. But if he wants to go around telling everyone that the publishers of Traveller are "wrong" then he deserves to be laughed right off the forum.

 

[rancke]

Oh no. We can't possibly have anyone change the game can we? It can't possibly be allowed to evolve over time, can it?

That most certainly depends on the changes. I'd be most annoyed, and I think justifiably so, if Marc Miller marketed a famtasy game with Zhodani wizards, Vargr werewolves, militant centaurs, insectoid Hivers, Solomani barbarians, and Aslan catpeople under the name 'Traveller'. Even though I acknowledge that he has every legal right to do so.

Some of us feel that marketing the Babylon 5 universe under the name 'Traveller' is almost equally misguided. And when people persist in making statements that you believe are patently ridiculous, you're tempted to correct them. It's just human nature to rub it in when you know you are right and someone else is wrong.

Sure there are people who don't like it. I suspect many of them are mature enough to realise that they can carry on and play whatever edition of the game they prefer and ignore Mongoose Traveller completely. Some are evidently not that mature though.

And some feel that they're not getting the support for the Traveller game they have played for decades that they feel entitled to from the official Traveller licencee.

See, you're so wrapped up in inflicting your own arrogant, conceited vision of what Traveller "should be" that you can't even base your arguments on actual fact.

More like our vision of what Traveller has been for the past 30 years. Not quite the same thing.

That's not to say I'd object to a Fantasy game based on the Traveller 'engine'. As long as it's marketed as 'Wanderer' and not 'traveller'.

If Mongoose aren't delivering what you expect, why can't you just accept that and shut up and play what you do like and leave everyone else in peace?

Because up until a few says ago, I was under the mistaken belief that Mongoose wanted to deliver what I expected and just didn't 'get it'. Obviously it annoyed me to see people claim that Mongoose did too get it when it should be clear to anyone that they didn't.


Hans

 

[drh]

Problem is that even the title of this moved thread is a complete misinterpretation of the issues here. It's not about whether or not criticism of MGT should be allowed. It never has been, but the people on the other side of the argument are the ones who persistently claim that it is.

The issue is about whether or not criticism of MONGOOSE should be allowed, and I firmly and strongly believe that it should NOT be allowed here.

First because it is a clear violation of rule (6) of this forum that states that trashing of other companies is not allowed.

6) Do not undertake any action to the detriment of the community. The list of forbidden actions includes, but is not limited to:

* Trashing other forums, games, companies, or their products.

Second, because it is in effect, an ad hominem attack. True, a single person isn't the target, but it's the same thing - you're not attacking the idea, you're attacking the people behind the idea.

Criticism of MGT should certainly be allowed here... but only to the extent of commentary on the game itself. When people start ascribing motivations to publishers, or complaining about the people producing it or the people who like it, then IMO it becomes unacceptable. Such behavior is not productive at all, doesn't help anyone, and obviously causes tempers to flare.

I want to see CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM of MGT. Comments like "I don't think this rule works (here's why), but I've come up with a way to get around it (here it is), what do you think?" should be encouraged. Hell, even if you say "I don't like this rule, but I don't know how to fix it, can anyone help?" that's a good thing too, because at least you're asking for someone to help constructively there.

What I am completely sick of is endless moaning along the lines of "Oh god, Mongoose have messed the game up again, they don't understand it, they're trying to destroy it, I hope it dies soon". That's nothing more than toxic, unconstructive, unnecessary garbage against Mongoose itself, and has nothing whatsoever to do with their version of Traveller.

If people find problems with MGT itself, then they can and should be encouraged to point them out, as long as they're also willing to propose ways to fix them. And if people want to praise the game here then they should be allowed to do so without someone bargeing in and telling them how it sucks. That's what happens on most other discussion boards out there with every other game, even on THIS discussion board with other versions of Traveller! So why it can't happen here?

 

[rancke]

Right there, he's telling Mongoose and Marc Miller that they're wrong. Objectively wrong, at that, not just in his subjective opininon.

And so they are, from the perspective of someone who expected Mongoose Traveller to stay inside the parameters that have been implied by the 'Traveller' label for 30 years. I don't think he can be blamed for not realizing that Mongoose and Marc Miller had decided to change all that.

The example of 2300AD that was mislabled Traveler 2300 at first is spot on. Only, back then, GDW didn't intend to change the Traveller paradigm, so they changed the name of the non-Traveller game when people protested that it was "not Traveller".

I'm sure not making a personal attack by reminding everyone of the ridiculousness of his statements. Who the hell is he to tell Mongoose or Marc Miller that they're "wrong" or "mistaken"?

He's someone who mistakenly believed that MgT was supposed to stay inside the parameters that have been implied by the 'Traveller' label for 30 years.


Hans

 

[drh]

Some of us feel that marketing the Babylon 5 universe under the name 'Traveller' is almost equally misguided.

But... you KNOW why that's not misguided. Matt's made it clear here and elsewhere. "Traveller" is now a ruleset, not a setting - that's the new way of doing things now. Yes, a handful of people have made it clear that they don't agree with that... but that's not going to change a damn thing, any more than a handful of diehard 1st Edition D&D fans are going to make WotC suddenly drop D&D4e. It ain't gonna happen. And they're certainly not going to change any publisher's minds about it by attacking them all the time.

And some feel that they're not getting the support for the Traveller game they have played for decades that they feel entitled to from the official Traveller licencee.

And that's what it all boils down to really isn't it. "Entitlement".

I hate to break it to you, but we don't own Traveller. Marc Miller owns Traveller, and he's decided that Mongoose's approach is acceptable to him. And we have to respect that. Sure, people can disagree with it, but they certainly aren't going to change anything. Sales will continue to grow as new material and new settings will be released, and the people who don't like it will just have to accept that the game is not for them anymore.

But there's the thing. If you're one of those people who don't like where Mongoose is taking Traveller or don't agree with it, just carry on playing what you like! You already have everything you need to play whatever version of the game you prefer already. That's why you like it. You've got the books, you've got the supplements, you've written your house rules, you've got your players... why the hell do you even need Mongoose at all? What do you think they owe you?

We're not "entitled" to anything. It's just a false sense of ownership created by a lot of emotional investment in a game, that's all. But it is false.

More like our vision of what Traveller has been for the past 30 years.

Things have changed. Deal with it.

I apologise if that's harsh, but that's the reality of the situation. You've got over 30 years of material to use if you want to stick with the "original" Traveller direction, and that's long enough for it to stay in that format and going in that direction. Now that's changed. It's unfortunate that you don't like it, but if this is where you get off the train, then that's that.

Obviously it annoyed me to see people claim that Mongoose did too get it when it should be clear to anyone that they didn't.

I think you're the ones who don't get it though. Mongoose have said where they're going with Traveller and how they're approaching it. That's what there is to "get" now. That's the new reality, and they're the ones who get to decide it, not you. If you want a say in the matter, then you can either get on the train again or you can see if you can persuade Marc to sell you a separate license for Traveller.

 

[ThunderChilde]

And so they are, from the perspective of someone who expected Mongoose Traveller to stay inside the parameters that have been implied by the 'Traveller' label for 30 years.

He's someone who mistakenly believed that MgT was supposed to stay inside the parameters that have been implied by the 'Traveller' label for 30 years.


Hans

Mmmmm, not try to pour oil on the fire, but the Traveller OTU has been in continual evolution from the word go. Right up to 1248 and now MGT. GDW changed things frequently, retconned, altertered, spindled, mangaled, etc. MGT's Spinward Marches does not seem to get that far off the reservation. They have additional OTU materials coming, keep your powder dry till they hit the shelves please.

It was advertised as THE OTU BOOK when Spinward Marches was released. For the record it was the first MGT book I bought, seeing no major breaks with my memory of what was, I dove in.

Another note, the original LBB's had assumptions, but was any TU agnostic. It's why I don't really get the vociferous reception the agnostic TMB gets. Honestly SM fill the same role as the original SM, just does it better, with a whole lot more text about what the Imperium is.

 

[drh]

I don't think he can be blamed for not realizing that Mongoose and Marc Miller had decided to change all that.

Uh, actually it's been blatantly obvious that they were going to do that right from the start. They've clearly stated several times that Mongoose Traveller was intended to be a generic ruleset for a variety of different SF settings.

 

[Supplement Four]

Oh no. We can't possibly have anyone change the game can we? It can't possibly be allowed to evolve over time, can it?

Evolving needs to be done with care. You can take Alien, a good film, and make a great one, Aliens, by advancing the story line.

Or, you can start with Aliens, and follow it with Alien 3 and Alien: Resurrection, both, not so good.

MGT = The not so good.

MGT ain't bad. It's just ain't GREAT. It's a missed opportunity that doesn't seem to be getting better (as I hoped it would) after several publications.

Let's wait and see how they're going to mangle the Aslan next!

Many are saying it's great actually. You just choose to ignore or dismiss them and overblow the opinions of yourself and your little clique of haters.

You're getting a little hot, there, bro. You might want to take a breather. Smell some daisies. Look at some kittens play. And, then, when you feel better, c'mon back to the thread and participate with us.

It's OK if you're on the other side of the fence. Keep telling yourself, "It's just a game...it's just a game...it's just a game...".

Which is why Mongoose's sales are really hurting and MGT isn't doing well. Oh wait... that's not true though. Mongoose's sales of Traveller are doing really well! :rofl:

I predict that they are starting to show some leveling, and that sales will decrease once the its no longer the flavor of the months.

I doubt it will last the 10 years that Mongoose says it will.

Sure there are people who don't like it. I suspect many of them are mature enough to realise that they can carry on and play whatever edition of the game they prefer and ignore Mongoose Traveller completely. Some are evidently not that mature though.

Hey, bro. Remember: Daisies. Kittens.

See, you're so wrapped up in inflicting your own arrogant, conceited vision of what Traveller "should be" that you can't even base your arguments on actual fact.

Daisies. Kittens. Brahms on the stereo.

Rubbish. Look, this is what he actually said (here: http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=317237&postcount=298) in response to Mongoose Matt:

Just FYI: You link goes to one of Allen's posts.

ROFLMAO!!!!!:rofl:

Right there, he's telling Mongoose and Marc Miller that they're wrong. Objectively wrong, at that, not just in his subjective opininon.

But...it's not a personal attack.

I didn't say that Matt is an idiot and wrong (I happen to think Matt is a nice guy. He sent me this extremely nice, laminated map for the Conan rpg. Thanks Matt! I think he's doing what the thinks is "right" and running his business the best way he knows how. I just don't happen to like his proferred hamburger. I like the ones from McDonalds instead.).

But if he wants to go around telling everyone that the publishers of Traveller are "wrong" then he deserves to be laughed right off the forum.

I hope TBeard doesn't mind if I use one of his shrugs.

[shrug]

It's happened before. I'm sure it will happen again. If it did, it wouldn't upset me in the slightest.

Which reminds me...you need to remember: Daisies. Kittens. Brahms on the stereo. Your favorite girl winking at you.

Think nice thoughts. Then, c'mon back and have the discussion without getting so angry.

 

[rancke]

But... you KNOW why that's not misguided. Matt's made it clear here and elsewhere. "Traveller" is now a ruleset, not a setting - that's the new way of doing things now.

I know now. As I've already stated, I didn't realize it until a few days ago.

And that's what it all boils down to really isn't it. "Entitlement".

Expectations.

I hate to break it to you, but we don't own Traveller. Marc Miller owns Traveller, and he's decided that Mongoose's approach is acceptable to him. And we have to respect that.

Why? I mean, I'm going to, but I don't see why that's a given, as my example about the imaginary Fantasy Traveller was intended to illustrate. Is it so unreasonable that people who have known Traveller to be one thing for decades get upset when someone markets a "New Taste"?

Sure, people can disagree with it, but they certainly aren't going to change anything. Sales will continue to grow as new material and new settings will be released, and the people who don't like it will just have to accept that the game is not for them anymore.

You're mixing up two different things. I can resign myself to being unable to do something about it without accepting that it's right.

But there's the thing. If you're one of those people who don't like where Mongoose is taking Traveller or don't agree with it, just carry on playing what you like! You already have everything you need to play whatever version of the game you prefer already.

No, I don't. A place like Charted Space is big, and it takes a lot of man-hours to fill it in. I can use all the setting material I can get... provided, of course, that the new setting material is compatible with the material I already have.

That's why you like it. You've got the books, you've got the supplements, you've written your house rules, you've got your players... why the hell do you even need Mongoose at all? What do you think they owe you?

A lot more than if they hadn't made sure no one else could write and publish material set in Charted Space (outside Foreven).

We're not "entitled" to anything. It's just a false sense of ownership created by a lot of emotional investment in a game, that's all. But it is false.

Just as false as the feeling people got when they couldn't buy Classic Coke any more .

Things have changed. Deal with it.

And if dealing with the emotional hardship involves bitching and moaning to relieve my feelings?

I apologise if that's harsh, but that's the reality of the situation. You've got over 30 years of material to use if you want to stick with the "original" Traveller direction, and that's long enough for it to stay in that format and going in that direction. Now that's changed. It's unfortunate that you don't like it, but if this is where you get off the train, then that's that.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course. You're not entitled to believe that it's the only valid one, though.


Hans

 

[ThunderChilde]

MGT ain't bad. It's just ain't GREAT. It's a missed opportunity that doesn't seem to be getting better (as I hoped it would) after several publications.

Let's wait and see how they're going to mangle the Aslan next!

Fair Warning
Mongoose intends to "tart up" the Aslans appearance a bit, and I am lead to believe a more coherent write up. They have been bent in so many directions since Cats and Rats, I don't mind a resettled image and meme for the aslan. Prolly keep my Hani riffing Aslan anyhow.

They also say the want to Tart Up some of the ships too, again led to believe not so much the Adventure class ships as the Aslan and Zho, maybe some Vargr specific things etc. They do intend to do a minaitures game, which would give us Minis, Huzzah I say.

 

[tbeard1999]

Uh, actually it's been blatantly obvious that they were going to do that right from the start. They've clearly stated several times that Mongoose Traveller was intended to be a generic ruleset for a variety of different SF settings.

"Blatantly obvious"?

A mighty Imperium unites thousands of star systems under a single rule, but it is beset by enemies both internal and external.

The Imperium commands the space between the stars...

This is from the first and second paragraph of the MGT core rulebook.

So obviously, you are significantly overstating things.

While it may well have been true that Mongoose intended for Traveller to be a generic rules system, it is patently absurd to insinuate that this was obvious from the core rules. The rules refer to the Imperium and classic Traveller tropes throughout.

It is also absurd to insinuate that MGT -- as published -- was a generic game in the same way that (say) GURPS or Basic Roleplaying is.

What part of that do you not get?

 

[Supplement Four]

Is it so unreasonable that people who have known Traveller to be one thing for decades get upset when someone markets a "New Taste"?

Remember what happend to "New Coke".

Just because it's a reboot doesn't mean it will be a good one.

Fair Warning
Mongoose intends to "tart up" the Aslans appearance a bit, and I am lead to believe a more coherent write up. They have been bent in so many directions since Cats and Rats, I don't mind a resettled image and meme for the aslan. Prolly keep my Hani riffing Aslan anyhow.

What does "tart up" mean?

If it means "make them look cool--something that players will look at and say, 'WOW! I want to play one of those guys!', then it will be a good change.

If it means "make them look silly and not resemble the description of the past 30 years", then it's time to cry, bend down on one's knees, and scream at the heavens, "Will it never end!? WILL IT NEVER END!?"

 

[ThunderChilde]

The former is the intension, we shall see though, I am a little dubious of the Artist doing most of the ships. I do like the art in the PHB and Scouts.

 

[drh]

I know now. As I've already stated, I didn't realize it until a few days ago.

Then all I can say is that you really weren't paying attention to what Mongoose were saying from day one.

Is it so unreasonable that people who have known Traveller to be one thing for decades get upset when someone markets a "New Taste"?

There's a difference between being upset about it and being obstructive about it.

You're mixing up two different things. I can resign myself to being unable to do something about it without accepting that it's right.

Maybe you can. But some people here believe that it's wrong without accepting that they can't do something about it. Which is why they choose to make a lot of noise instead of just going away and playing their own games and leaving everyone else to it.

No, I don't. A place like Charted Space is big, and it takes a lot of man-hours to fill it in. I can use all the setting material I can get... provided, of course, that the new setting material is compatible with the material I already have.

Would you rather have no new setting material at all, or new setting material that you'll have to fiddle with to work in your version of Traveller? It seems to me that you don't have much to complain about - the OTU is still being supported by Mongoose, though it doesn't really sound like they'll be releasing much in the near future that hasn't already been covered four or five times before in previous editions anyway. Whether they were "true to the OTU" or not wouldn't make any difference in that regard, unless you're a compulsive collector of the same thing phrased in different ways .

A lot more than if they hadn't made sure no one else could write and publish material set in Charted Space (outside Foreven).

That's no different to how things were before though. Actually, wait, it is. Previously nobody could commercially publish material set in the OTU at all without a license - now they can, through the Foreven sector. And also, now people can commercially publish anything they want using the Traveller ruleset - and they couldn't do that before either.

And as far as I know, both SJG and QLI can still publish material set in Charted Space outside Foreven until their licenses run out. So what's your complaint again? It seems to me that overall we're better off than we were before when it comes to choice of material here.

And if dealing with the emotional hardship involves bitching and moaning to relieve my feelings?

"Emotional hardship"? Have a bit of perspective here please. this is a roleplaying game we're talking about, not breaking up with a loved one or being fired from a job or some other traumatic experience.

And even if it did hit you hard enough to qualify as "emotional hardship", you're much better served by "bitching and moaning to relieve your feelings" to people who actually give a damn. That way you'll get over it quicker.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course. You're not entitled to believe that it's the only valid one, though.

I think it's the only practical one. It's a lot better and much more socially acceptable than bitching and moaning and kvetching and annoying everyone for my own selfish "emotional relief".

 

[drh]

Or, you can start with Aliens, and follow it with Alien 3 and Alien: Resurrection, both, not so good.

Again, your opinion is not fact. Stop spouting it as such.

MGT ain't bad. It's just ain't GREAT. It's a missed opportunity that doesn't seem to be getting better (as I hoped it would) after several publications.

I think there's a scratch in this record. It keeps saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over....

FFS, just get the hell over it. So you don't think it's "GREAT"... so just bug off and play something else and stop making everyone's life hell here.

It's OK if you're on the other side of the fence. Keep telling yourself, "It's just a game...it's just a game...it's just a game...".

Maybe you should practise what you preach. You seem to think it's important enough that you know better than the publishers.

I doubt it will last the 10 years that Mongoose says it will.

See... this is exactly what I mean. What kind of person wishes that a game fails just because he doesn't like it? I'll leave that for the reader to decide. But keep going, I'm sure you're impressing a lot of people this way.

Thing is, you don't really give a damn about improving MGT. You just want it to fail so you can get up on your high horse and say you were right because you're spiteful and bitter. Thanks for showing us your true colors.

I just don't happen to like his proferred hamburger. I like the ones from McDonalds instead.).

So get the hell out of here and go to McDonalds instead. Or do you spend all your time picketing the burger places you don't like? Or perhaps you instead stay at the counter at Burger King and argue with the staff there and wave their burgers at them saying "YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG! YOU SHOULD HAVE MAYO HERE, NOT ONION! LIKE AT MCDONALDS!"? until they call the police, instead of just going to McDonalds and actually enjoying something you like.

Seriously, if someone pulled this sort of crap in real life, the cops would be there to take them away and and before the person knew it they'd be up for a psychiatric assessment. So why it's acceptable here is completely beyond me.

 

[rancke]

Then all I can say is that you really weren't paying attention to what Mongoose were saying from day one.

You mean statements like this?

"A mighty Imperium unites thousands of star systems under a single rule, but it is beset by enemies both internal and external.

The Imperium commands the space between the stars..."​

As tbeard pointed out to you above, this is from the first and second paragraph of the MGT core rulebook. This would qualify as something Mongoose said somewhere around day one, wouldn't it?

Maybe you could provide a few quotes from Mongoose that made their intentions clear from day one?

"Emotional hardship"? Have a bit of perspective here please. this is a roleplaying game we're talking about, not breaking up with a loved one or being fired from a job or some other traumatic experience.

And even if it did hit you hard enough to qualify as "emotional hardship", you're much better served by "bitching and moaning to relieve your feelings" to people who actually give a damn. That way you'll get over it quicker.

Would you like your leg back or can I keep it?


Hans

 

[rancke]

FFS, just get the hell over it. So you don't think it's "GREAT"... so just bug off and play something else and stop making everyone's life hell here.

Who are you to tell anyone what they can post as long as they don't break the rules? You have the right to refute his points. You have the right not to read any of his posts. But you've absolutely no right to tell anyone to stop posting whatever they want to. If you think he's breaking the rules you can report him or you can bitch and moan about it, but in the second case you no better than any other bitcher and moaner.

Seriously, if someone pulled this sort of crap in real life, the cops would be there to take them away and and before the person knew it they'd be up for a psychiatric assessment. So why it's acceptable here is completely beyond me.

As you've so amply demonstrated.


Hans

 

[Klaus]

You mean statements like this?

"A mighty Imperium unites thousands of star systems under a single rule, but it is beset by enemies both internal and external.

The Imperium commands the space between the stars..."​

This is as generic as generic gets, really. From Star Wars to Dune via Foundation and the rest.

It's very thin evidence for 'hoodwinking', if that's not too strong a term for what's being asserted.

 

[Klaus]

Dunno, it's waaay past my bedtime, and I guess that's coming up soon for many of you folks.

Maybe it's time to chill for a bit.

Getting a bit too worked up about the "anti's" (note, some irony in use here) isn't going to do the "pro" (ditto) cause any good, and the arguing about arguing is getting somewhat wearisome.

I want to talk about Traveller, especially in the Mongoose flavour...


One thing: this list of what is OTU and what is verboten. When it's done, do we get to look at it, as in a fair and diligent way like some folk feel Mongoose didn't do last year?

 

[rancke]

This is as generic as generic gets, really. From Star Wars to Dune via Foundation and the rest.

So you don't feel anyone could possibly get the impression that it referred directly to the same universe that 'Traveller' had referred to for 30 years?

It's very thin evidence for 'hoodwinking', if that's not too strong a term for what's being asserted.

I never said anything about hoodwinking. I was refuting the claim that Mongoose had made their planned changes from the specific to the generic clear from day one.

The operative word is 'clear'. As in 'can clearly only be interpreted one way' rather than 'is ambiguous at best'.

Although, as I haven't read everything Mongoose has written, I may just have missed it. I'm quite ready to be corrected, provided someone will actually present me with proof rather than unsupported allegations.


Hans