Why allow Criticism of MGT?

[drh]

I'd recommend that folks recognize that:

Don't force your justifications on us. All of the things you said are just designed to excuse your attitude and behavior, not designed to foster rational discussion about MGT.

As soon as people start saying that a publisher is "doing it wrong" or that they know better than the publishers, it's over the line. Period. Dolly that up with pithy justifications about "honesty" or "frankness" all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that you and a few others here are openly contemptuous of the people who write and the people who like Mongoose Traveller, and who wish to be allowed to rationally and constructively discuss the good and bad aspects of that edition.

People are tired of your tirades, and want to reclaim this board as one where they can talk about Mongoose Traveller without someone butting in with their own anti-Mongoose screed. Which part of that do you not understand, exactly?

 

[tbeard1999]

again...how many times do we have to hear the very same complaints over and over again before they cease to be criticism and become harassment?

<sigh>

I guess as many times as we have to "hear" this complaint.

Again -- a criticism of a game you like (no matter how unreasonble you think the criticism is) is not a personal attack on you.

And why do we have to have these criticism even in such threads where that criticism is specifically not wanted?

Allen

Allen, at the end of the day, no one forces you to read anything. While I don't think that folks should be allowed to indiscriminately threadjack or post personally insulting material, you HAVE to acknowledge that there's a lot of room for debate over when those lines are crossed. So my advice is to simply killfile the folks you detest. Or ignore their posts. I'm doing that right now, as it happens, for a particularly shrill poster. And, FWIW, I acknowledge that it's easier said than done

 

[Allensh]

<sigh>

I guess as many times as we have to "hear" this complaint.

Again -- a criticism of a game you like (no matter how unreasonble you think the criticism is) is not a personal attack on you.



At the end of the day, no one forces you to read anything. While I don't think that folks should be allowed to indiscriminately threadjack or post personally insulting material, you HAVE to acknowledge that there's a lot of room for debate over when those lines are crossed. So my advice is to simply killfile the folks you detest. Or ignore their posts. I'm doing that right now, as it happens, for a particularly shrill poster. And, FWIW, I acknowledge that it's easier said than done

I have been doing that, actually..unfortunatley it doesn't block everything.

I really don't see why asking for somewhat more considerate behavior is such a crime around here...but whatever.

Allen

 

[tbeard1999]

I have been doing that, actually..unfortunatley it doesn't block everything.

I really don't see why asking for somewhat more considerate behavior is such a crime around here...but whatever.

Allen

I never said it was a crime and didn't intend to imply such. I just think that terms like "considerate" are highly subjective. And at some point, answering every critical post with insinuations that the critic is irrational, inconsiderate, etc., becomes at least as obnoxious as the behavior you decry. (No accusations intended).

Therefore, the sensible solution might be to try to ignore folks you find obnoxious whenever possible. Granted, this is far harder than it sounds, and my own record at this is nothing to brag about. But it's probably worth the attempt. Because candidly, you seem every bit as obsessed as those your complain about. I'm sure that you don't actually feel this way, but it's how it looks to me.

Regarding motives of critics, well, I think you'd agree that we don't have a mindreading machine, so we can never be certain of someone's motives. Of course, we can draw inferences -- both reasonable and unreasonable -- from their actions. But at the end of the day, I'm not sure it matters much, at least in evaluating their criticisms. A criticism IMHO stands on its own; the biases of the person asserting it are irrelevant.

Of course, if you truly think that someone irrationally hates MGT, then isn't it foolish to continue to argue with them (other than to address the specific criticisms that can be rebutted)?

Anyhow, I didn't mean to preach. I just think that some of the MGT defenders aren't behaving any more admirably than those they complain about.

 

[far-trader]

People... want to reclaim this board as one where they can talk about Mongoose Traveller without someone butting in with their own anti-Mongoose screed.

So do it already.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/search.php?searchid=710022&photoplog_searchinfo=1

 

[ThunderChilde]

Thunderchild:

"Why pay more for less" was NEVER a SUPPORTIVE thread. It started from the question "Why should I buy Mgt when I already have MT/can get MT for less money" that was actually aimed at a specific poster in that thread, not "the public" and addressed him by "nick"

The more is MegaTraveller that is a more complete rules set (Base + most of HighGuard + Vehicle construction) and currently sells in a bundle with some MegaTraveller background stuff for less than an Mgt rules book alone.

What part of making the allusion that the negative thread born of a positive thread and dwarfing it did you miss?

If the shoes hurt last year, they won't fit better this year.

Sorry, we walked away from Mega, um around '86 I think, maybe '85. Why in Guh's name should I go back? It was abandoned out of disgust, not likely to be different now. We left it for Gurps and Palladium, and a few other systems too.

 

[Allensh]

What part of making the allusion that the negative thread born of a positive thread and dwarfing it did you miss?

If the shoes hurt last year, they won't fit better this year.

Sorry, we walked away from Mega, um around '86 I think, maybe '85. Why in Guh's name should I go back? It was abandoned out of disgust, not likely to be different now. We left it for Gurps and Palladium, and a few other systems too.

You must have been very disgusted to leave it for Palladium...

(joking)

Allen

 

[far-trader]

You must have been very disgusted to leave it for Palladium...

Just what any holy war needs, more heretics and factions stirred in.

(also joking )

 

[Madarin Dude]

Criticism is fine but the same things over and over are beyond annoying. We get it you don't like it.

Better criticism would also involve explaining ways to improve instead of just serving up the wine. When that is done I actually enjoy it.

 

[far-trader]

To hit submit or simply submit...

...We get it you don't like it.

Actually for many (I would dare say most) who have criticized it, no you (still) don't get it. They (we) do like it (to various degrees). It's not a mutually exclusive thing, and it's not an absolute. One can find faults, note them, and still not hate it, or at least all of it.

I seem to constantly see (squeaky wheel syndrome I'm sure) posts that imply (or insist) if you can't LOVE Mongoose exactly as it is, with every flaw (there are NO flaws), it must follow that you hate it, the people who made it, the people who play it, and anyone any of them they have ever met. And further that the very existence of CotI is solely to slam it and them. And everyone here is just itching and waiting for someone, anyone, to say "I (heart) Mongoose" so we can gang assault them.

 

[Allensh]

Actually for many (I would dare say most) who have criticized it, no you (still) don't get it. They (we) do like it (to various degrees). It's not a mutually exclusive thing, and it's not an absolute. One can find faults, note them, and still not hate it, or at least all of it.

I seem to constantly see (squeaky wheel syndrome I'm sure) posts that imply (or insist) if you can't LOVE Mongoose exactly as it is, with every flaw (there are NO flaws), it must follow that you hate it, the people who made it, the people who play it, and anyone any of them they have ever met. And further that the very existence of CotI is solely to slam it and them. And everyone here is just itching and waiting for someone, anyone, to say "I (heart) Mongoose" so we can gang assault them.

I'm sorry, but that is blatantly ridiculous.

No one that I have seen has insisted or even implied that you have to "LOVE Mongoose exactly as it is". That's hyperbole and exaggeration. To say that there are no flaws in Mongoose Traveller would be to fly in the face of logic and available evidence. I have even identified some of those flaws in the past.

I choose to try to be positive about MgT because, on the whole, I like it. Yes, there are issues that need addressing...but one those issues is NOT the idea of the OTU being ONE of the settings for Traveller but not the ONLY one. That is a not a flaw.

I absolutely challenge you to prove that I ever said it was wrong to critique Mongoose Traveller. I object to CONSTANT, STRIDENT harassment by the same few people over and over again that goes beyond "criticism" and into arrogant pronouncments by people who act like they are better than anyone else. They are not better. That's the way it is.

Allen

 

[Supplement Four]

None of the Traveller rule sets is perfect and above criticism - no, not even CT supp 4

HUH? You LIE! Nooo! You lie, lie, lie.

You're a lying dog, you Sigg Oddra. You're lying with fleas.

Hey, here's the guy who thinks he knows what Traveller is and should be better than Mongoose and even Marc Miller himself! :rofl:

This is exactly the sort of ridiculous attitude that is poisoning this place, and that needs to be stamped out if this board is to rise above its bad reputation.

Many believe that George Lucas "screwed up" his own universe with the Star Wars prequels.

There's something akin to that when MWM and his T5 is considered...and with some of the things Mongoose is doing.

I've often felt that MWM cares about Traveller, to an extent. But, it seems as if he might care about royalties more, even if that means making Traveller something else that what it is.

And who are you to dictate to people what is "great" or not, exactly? Just because you don't like something or agree with something, that doesn't mean that others are wrong to like it or to agree with it.

What Mongoose should aim for is a whole lot of people saying it's "GREAT". They're not. Many are saying, "It's better than nothing...and it ain't bad."

You want a reaction akin to the new Star Trek is getting, or that the new Battlestar Galactica got. Most think it's "GREAT". There will always be a few who disagree.

With Mongoose, there are many more than a few that disagree. There are many who look at MGT as Farscape rather than the new Battlestar Galactica.

Farscape is...OK. But, it sure ain't Battlestar.

I want Battlestar.

 

[far-trader]

I'm sorry, but that is blatantly ridiculous.

The whole or just bits? And which bits? The ones I qualified?

That's hyperbole and exaggeration.

Like attracts like. And you'll note (or should have) my caveat (which was lacking in the post I replied to) that I suspect it is perception and not fact.

And you're not the one this was directed at. I dare say you know that. If not and I've personally offended you I apologize for the mistaken impression and forgive you for what looks like (but I suspect is not) a rant directed at me for it and accusations of behavior I have not (I believe) engaged in.

 

[Allensh]

The whole or just bits? And which bits? The ones I qualified?



Like attracts like. And you'll note (or should have) my caveat (which was lacking in the post I replied to) that I suspect it is perception and not fact.

And you're not the one this was directed at. I dare say you know that. If not and I've personally offended you I apologize for the mistaken impression and forgive you for what looks like (but I suspect is not) a rant directed at me for it and accusations of behavior I have not (I believe) engaged in.

I did include some things that were more or less in my own defense, but what I objected to was the ludicrous assertion that ANYONE has said that it is neccesary to completely love MgT as is. No one that I have seen has done so.

Nevertheless it is entirely possible that I did misinterpret what you were trying to say, both here and in another thread. I apologize if I did.

Allen

 

[Klaus]

Farscape is...OK. But, it sure ain't Battlestar.

I want Battlestar.

NOW that's fighting talk!!!!!

Those two are in my revolving top three, along with Firefly....

 

[rancke]

I choose to try to be positive about MgT because, on the whole, I like it. Yes, there are issues that need addressing...but one those issues is NOT the idea of the OTU being ONE of the settings for Traveller but not the ONLY one. That is a not a flaw.

And AFAIK that's not the flaws that has been pointed out repeatedly in connection with the 'multiple TU' notion.

Flaw #1 (as we see it): There can be many Traveller universes, but (for example) the Babylon 5 universe isn't one of them, because it has FLT communication and a different FLT drive than the jump drive.

For a long time we've labored under the mistaken assumption that the people at Mongoose just didn't get it. Recently MongooseMatt wrote a post that made it clear that they get it and even agree with us; they just intend to deliberately change it.

Flaw #2 (as we see it): Sure, there can be many Traveller universes and the OfTU is one of them, but it is not just another one of them. The OfTU has a special status as the common ground for many of us.

Anything that implies to the uninformed that things like FLT communication and hyperspace gates exist in the OTU is a Bad Thing. Which is why we've been asking for ways to distinguish between generic rules, OSTU (Old Style Traveller Universe) rules, and non-OSTU rules. And happily it appears that MongooseMatt is agreeable on that point.


Hans

 

[drh]

I've often felt that MWM cares about Traveller, to an extent. But, it seems as if he might care about royalties more, even if that means making Traveller something else that what it is.

Oh no. We can't possibly have anyone change the game can we? It can't possibly be allowed to evolve over time, can it?

What Mongoose should aim for is a whole lot of people saying it's "GREAT". They're not. Many are saying, "It's better than nothing...and it ain't bad."

Many are saying it's great actually. You just choose to ignore or dismiss them and overblow the opinions of yourself and your little clique of haters.

With Mongoose, there are many more than a few that disagree.

Which is why Mongoose's sales are really hurting and MGT isn't doing well. Oh wait... that's not true though. Mongoose's sales of Traveller are doing really well! :rofl:

Sure there are people who don't like it. I suspect many of them are mature enough to realise that they can carry on and play whatever edition of the game they prefer and ignore Mongoose Traveller completely. Some are evidently not that mature though.

See, you're so wrapped up in inflicting your own arrogant, conceited vision of what Traveller "should be" that you can't even base your arguments on actual fact.

If Mongoose aren't delivering what you expect, why can't you just accept that and shut up and play what you do like and leave everyone else in peace? Why are you so angry and bitter that you can't just walk away from something you don't like? Nobody is forcing you to like or play it after all. Answer that for me, if you can.

 

[aramis]

NOW that's fighting talk!!!!!

Those two are in my revolving top three, along with Firefly....

And two of those three are licensed to another games company, who might be willing to do Traveller adaptations of them... Margaret Weiss Productions. Lord knows, for Serenity RPG, they were using a number of Traveller people. (Chris Thrash, for one.)

As is, their cortex system is playable, and does a good job on the cinematic level of play.

And Hans is right, it's been enlightening to see Matt's recent responses... I think Mongoose made some serious mistakes in their editing chocies, but hey.

Here's a suggestion: go to a preorders get a PDF, and get a 1 month window to catch typos/errors, and then send the corrected off to the printer.

 

[atpollard]

My 2 cents

It's a quite nice place if you're a fan of what Traveller was and should be.

The original Planet of the Apes, with Charlton Heston, is a great movie.

Tim Burton's updated version, not so much.

Draw your own conclusions.

S4 wrote a comment that is probably annoying to MgT fans (If it appeared in any serious MgT discussion, it might qualify as trolling – here it is probably not).

Hey, here's the guy who thinks he knows what Traveller is and should be better than Mongoose and even Marc Miller himself! :rofl:

This is exactly the sort of ridiculous attitude that is poisoning this place, and that needs to be stamped out if this board is to rise above its bad reputation.

Unlike the comment by S4, this response to it to be a direct attack on an individual.


While I find it tedious that most topics concerning MgT seem to quickly digress into a reheated serving of “This is what I see as flawed in MgT but Mongoose refuses to fix it”, you cannot really ask the moderators to swoop down and ‘punish’ S4 for his criticism and ignore the personal attacks of MgT fans. Keeping those determined to fight on both sides of the issue apart is a full-time job and we have only 2 part-time moderators (who would probably prefer not to have the job in the first place.)

This exchange is typical for a MgT topic on COTI (and milder than many exchanges) it was quoted simply because it was convenient. Less anyone read anything into my observation that is not intended, I acknowledge that very few of the Mongoose Traveller critics are as openly hostile as some have suggested and very few of the Mongoose supporters are given to personal malice. Unfortunately, it seems to take only one of each do draw blood and call both schools of sharks into the feeding frenzy.

I suggest that MgT supporters report bad posts, quoting the rule you believe is being violated, and avoid responding in kind. Then follow the off-topic post with a an ON-TOPIC post to improve the signal to noise ratio. If we* present an opportunity for the moderators to do right without requiring them to punish us for the same offenses, and they do not – then we should PM them to inquire about when we can expect justice. Frankly, responses like “Get the hell off this topic” really do not help our cause.

If those wishing to point out a flaw in MgT could post it once and not repeat it over and over as part of a public Jihad between one ‘MgT Fan’ and one ‘MgT Critic’, then I (and I expect others on COTI) would be grateful.

* while I am not MgTs biggest fan since I think even CT needs the rules streamlined for MTU – [Is there such a thing as Proto-Proto Traveller?] - I do like most of MgT: Core and High Guard and have both played and enjoyed MgT. This (in my opinion) allows me to count myself among both the MgT and CT fans.

 

[ThunderChilde]

Anyhow, I didn't mean to preach. I just think that some of the MGT defenders aren't behaving any more admirably than those they complain about.

Agreed, the level of civility in here on both sides leaves much to be desired.
I recently posted a thread to try to tease out the specific complaints, stripped of rhetoric, of the detractors and critics. I should have known better, tis rather heated in here right now. I now have the dubious honour of authoring my first locked thread. Didn't take long either.:frankie:

I think after tonight I'll be taking a few days away from COTI again.

At this point I am really despairing of anything like a reasonable atomosphere here. At this rate I will probably not renew my sponsorship of COTI, don't really see why I should.:nonono: