Why do we like older rule systems?

[aramis]

Just as loud as Traveller canonhawks, and they don't play their games either. Just worship them as holy writ.

No, most of the Old School crowd do seem to play. But where a typical gaming group might be 5 people, and one of them's active in the relevant BBS, and another pokes around, the OSR seems to be entire groups join at the same time... 4/5 or 5/5... and that's WHY there are 20 different "D&D, but fixed" games out there.

And some of the loudest are actually running the stuff they spout, and more.

A number of my friends are QUITE unhappy with my move to the new-school indie games.

Don't get me wrong: I respect Old School. I'm just not part of it. Unless you count running a PBP of Starships and Spacemen to be part of it. I respect CT, too... but that I won't run. MT, sure. I much prefer my mechanics unified.

 

[Jeffr0]

Just as loud as Traveller canonhawks, and they don't play their games either. Just worship them as holy writ.

Not only do the old school guys play...

* they play regularly...

* they have no problem finding players...

* they have no problem killing off first level characters regularly...

* they come up with insanely detailed rationales for weird D&Disms ["no... it makes perfect sense for all weapons to do 1d6 damage... here's why..."]

* they have a system/setting that takes almost not effort to run on the DM's part (I could run regular sessions and mainly just focus on making miniatures and so forth...)

* combat is simple and fast, so the focus of the game shifts up to resource management and exploration...

* they are pushing the state of the art in their respective rpg genre forward...

The whole "people who play the game by fiddling with it buy never actually playing it with other people" thing is endemic to Traveller and maybe GURPS... but it isn't normal in the wider gaming scene.

Also... if you look at the most recent series of CAR WARS session reports, they are trending towards rpg-style continuing campaign oriented scenarios.

(Theory: while CAR WARS has a design system that is liable to suck people into tinkering instead of playing games, the rules are simple enough that you *can* actually sit down and play it as long as you are willing to have a good fist fight when you have to hash through the collision rules for the first time. Old school D&D? There just isn't a lot there to tinker with.... There really isn't anything to do with that game but *play* it! GURPS and Traveller have so many complex subsystems... there's a lot there to tinker with *and* there's a learning curve any time any piece of it hits the table. Which really means that only the hard core alpha-gamers have the mettle to actually run with it... but even worse... your potential audience of players is so much smaller as well....)

 

[skyth]

I'm a mix of both. Two of my favorite games are Rolemaster and Champions (Not the current edition of champions though). However, I perfer D&D 3.5 to OD&D, 1st edition, 2nd edition, 3.0 or 4th (Granted, haven't tried 4th...But in my mind, it isn't D&D). I perfer MegaTraveller to Traveller personally. I perfer 2nd edition Mechwarrior to 1st or 3rd edition (Haven't tried ATOW).

I like games with internally consistent mechanics balanced with a lot of options for the players, along with player control of character development.

However, nostalgia is a powerful force.

Inertia is also...If you already have a game and are playing a game, why spend money to change doing something that you enjoy?

 

[Vile]

Old dogs have little time to play, never mind learn tricks.

 

[Traveller]

The "scene" is dominated by people who don't bother visiting here or visiting other gaming sites and only give a damn about playing a game. I would say the average online is between 1 and 5% of the fanbase for a particular game. Yet that 1 to 5% is enough to sour anyone on a game.

I was asked to define "old school" on another forum I frequent and I defined it like this:

"Old school: Any person or group of persons found on the Internet who believe that a game is only played properly if using all aspects of the default rules, unaltered or unadjusted by personal preference. Conversation will devolve into a flame war if the poster replying to the person or group of persons does not change their view to match."

I wanted to say they were a bunch of Internet blowhards incapable of allowing dissenting opinions, but that would be ignoring the inevitable degeneration of any discussion they enter into threats of physical violence. I was actually rather kind in defining "old school" above, but make no mistake. I have encountered far too many idiots online, mostly from the OSRIC fanbase, who worship Dungeons & Dragons as holy writ. I have encountered it here from certain people who get totally bent out of shape because they encounter people like myself who may not like certain aspects of the Third Imperium setting or may not like the Third Imperium AT ALL. I have absolutely zero patience and zero tolerance for such bulls***. Same goes for anyone who supports such behavior or encourages it, including site owners and moderators.

Fortunately, this thread seems to be quite mellow, but I get a very negative vibe just visiting the site, as if I am not welcome because I don't have a problem adhering to the creator's original intent for the game: a framework to build your own universe.

 

[Icosahedron]

Short answer: Cos we're older gamers.

The prerequisite for any day trip back then was searching White Dwarf and Dragon for games shops in towns on the way or at our destination!

The once a year wargaming show we held at the local corn exchange was a more exciting event for me than Christmas I would check and recheck my building society book planning how best to spend the balance back down to zero and can still remember spending hours pestering traders with questions about new releases.

Ah, those were the days. The old days when magazines and games shops actually existed and stocked things other than GW products, Star Wars dolls and computer games. The days when you could get inspiration from a glass case full of painted figurines, when you could buy an army with your pocket money instead of four 'individually crafted sculptures' with double-figure price tags, the days when you could pick up Traveller supplements from the shelf and discuss the Spinward Marches with the fat bloke with the pipe and paint-blotched fingers instead of getting puzzled shrugs from the spotty-faced child behind the counter today.

And the days when you'd come out of a wargame convention laden with carrier bags full of goodies to keep you occupied until the next one.
I think the last six shows I went to, the only things I brought out were the 'buy seven, get one free' discount vouchers they handed me when I went in!

Or am I just a grumbly old curmudgeon with rose-tinted reading glasses?

 

[Vile]

I was asked to define "old school" on another forum I frequent and I defined it like this:

"Old school: Any person or group of persons found on the Internet who believe that a game is only played properly if using all aspects of the default rules, unaltered or unadjusted by personal preference."

Never played AD&D, but my experience of "Old School" by way of Classic D&D and Chaosium RuneQuest is quite different, even contrary. Our idea of Old School is relatively simple, minimal and adaptable rule sets with an unhealthy dose of seat-of-the-pants refereeing required. CT qualifies, too, in that there are lots of holes in the RAW which need interpretation or extrapolation. Those rules never missed a chance to slip in an admonition of, "These are guidelines. It's your game, play it how you like."

Methinks you speak of grognards and canon-mongers, rather than old-schoolers? :devil:

 

[Traveller]

I have a very negative reaction to the old school "movement" because of loudmouths.

For the record, I prefer relatively simple, minimal, and adaptable rule sets. This is why I prefer OD&D over AD&D and later editions, and why I prefer Classic Traveller over all other editions, MgT included*. The entire point of games such as OD&D and Classic Traveller is to make the game your own. That means house rules, fixing what you think is broken, and creating your own universe to play in. Somewhere along the line, the Internet blowhards on both ends of the spectrum, the old school "movement" who worship the rules as holy writ and the canonhawks who worship the setting as gospel, arrived to spoil the fun.

The most annoying thing in my view is being told that I am somehow playing a role-playing game "wrong", whether it's because I ignore a rule I don't like, fill a gap in the rules with something someone else doesn't like, or choose to ignore a setting's assumptions to suit my preferences. The second most annoying thing is to have it implied that my opinions are somehow "wrong" for the same reasons. I've encountered both annoyances. The first on a site I no longer frequent in the fantasy RPG sphere, and the second right here.

Such behavior simply isn't acceptable and will not be tolerated by me. I am going to play the game I like, regardless of how "wrong" anyone thinks it is, and I'm going to express my opinion. Both will be done regardless of what anyone thinks about it, because in the end it's MY game and MY opinions that matter, no one else's.

*MgT is a reasonably simple rule set and has good ideas. There just isn't anything in it that compels me to give up Classic Traveller.

 

[rancke]

I have encountered it here from certain people who get totally bent out of shape because they encounter people like myself who may not like certain aspects of the Third Imperium setting or may not like the Third Imperium AT ALL.

People like that ought to be ashamed of themselves. Why can't they let you and your non-Third Imperium settings in peace just as you let those of us who favor the OTU in peace?

I have absolutely zero patience and zero tolerance for such bulls***. Same goes for anyone who supports such behavior or encourages it, including site owners and moderators.

Quite right too. Just as I have no patience with people who mistake any disagreement as malicious attacks.


Hans

 

[Jeffr0]

Aw sheesh.

Can we please can the whole two minutes hate thing here?

 

[shadowcat20]

Here we go.

First I consider myself "Old School"

Second anyone has the right to run their game how they want.

But when rules are being disected to try to figure out what the writers ment by that YOU HAVE TO STICK TO THE WRITTEN WORD...

Opinioins are nice and we all have them. But all of us can not agree on everything. Almost every game I have run has house rules. But house rules only apply to your game and others can blow em off or accept them as is their right.

So when "Old Schoolers" are working on rules for everyone to see there is no room for house rules as it only upsets some of us.

But in the end it is your game so do as you will.

And for the record this "Old Schooler" is taking LBB rulebooks for the setting and designs, using T20 for the characters, Striker for his combat rules, and is writing his own space combat rules.

Ok, Rant over

 

[Enoff]

Nostalgia; Difficult to Acquire; Simplicty of Design

Nostalgia, I was at a boarding school in the eleventh grade when I frist got the original LBB box set. No TV was allowed, I had to listen to Battlestar Galactica via radio I believe in the ninth grade there.

Difficult to acquire, now that I can finally have everything CT via the internet I am still figuring out the game.

Simplicity of design, I think of myself more as a wargamer than a rpg player and I am still attracted to the simplicity but the attractiveness of the old GDW boardgames such as Imperium. Now that I have been able to buy Belter and Double Star online from the wargame vault I am having fun figuring out these games and how they relate to CT.

 

[Traveller]

Aw sheesh.

Can we please can the whole two minutes hate thing here?

I don't know if you're referring to me, or to the guy who posted before you whose posts I don't read.

I'm going to assume that you're referring to me. The old school "movement" and the retroclones have no place on this site, and I really shouldn't have said anything. However, the parallel between how members of the old school "movement" act and how canonhawks act on the Internet when confronted with their intolerances simply cannot be ignored. The effects on the sites they frequent can't be ignored either.

This site is a ghost town, because people who come here that might have something to contribute are driven away by the holier than thou attitudes of the canonhawks and other intolerant personalities on this site. How many unique IPs post here on a regular basis these days? 200? 300? This site used to have thousands of members who posted on a regular basis. Where did they go?

They went to places more hospitable and friendly because certain personalities on this site drove them away. Speaking only for me, I would post a lot more on this site if those personalities that drive others away were in fact friendlier and more accepting of viewpoints that don't conform with their narrow-minded view. In fact, the only saving grace of this site right about now is that it has an ignore list and I'm not afraid to use it.

 

[PFVA63]

Hi

I think I agree alot with Enoff. For me, alot of it is nostalgia and simplicity.

With regards to games in general, alot of times, after completely failing to get pas the first challenge in a new computer game, I often find myself blowing off steam by playing solitaire, minesweeper, reversi, or free cell on my computer instead.

With RPGs I guess its sometimes kind of the same. When looking over some of the new games out there, I sometimes have felt a little overwhelmed by the complexity and/or unfamiliarity of them (especially anything D20 most of whih which comes across so alien to me that I have trouble even understanding the basic concepts of them) and end up looking back fondly at some of the earlier systems that I have more experience with.

Regards

PF

 

[robject]

[...] Somewhere along the line, the Internet blowhards on both ends of the spectrum, the old school "movement" who worship the rules as holy writ and the canonhawks who worship the setting as gospel, arrived to spoil the fun.

The most annoying thing in my view is being told that I am somehow playing a role-playing game "wrong", whether it's because I ignore a rule I don't like, fill a gap in the rules with something someone else doesn't like, or choose to ignore a setting's assumptions to suit my preferences. [...]

This doesn't seem particularly old school, though I understand that older rulesets and settings have more opportunity to grow all sort of fans, including maladjusted ones. It does sound obnoxiously annoying though.

 

[mbrinkhues]

@Traveller:

More likely the people went and got a real life. Players get older and drop out due to job/family etc. Traveller players seem to be older mostly (past their 30s) and that's often the "family" time. There is little traffic on any Traveller board these days (Mongoose, CoTI, SJG, 13Mann) or on boards with Traveller-Subfora (Quite a few closed due to "lack of interest")

And even on the 4 major traveller fori you will find much of the same set of posters.

 

[Vargas]

There is some merit in what Traveller posted but age is also a factor.

 

[Ishmael]

if age is a significant factor, then Traveller is dying out, because while older folk might leave to handle job/family/etc., there don't seem to be new blood taking their place.

In my experience, the new blood would't have any nostalgia for the OTU as they were not involved in its creation, nor watched and played along as it was being created. Therefore, extreme levels of canonhawk-ing would be unwelcoming to them.

 

[aramis]

Ishmael: The same issue is one for Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, and the Marvel Universe.
Doesn't work the way you think it does; just as many new, young canonhawks for those proportionally as ever. And the secondmost intense canonhawk I've ever met is in his early 20's now. (Took my lunch away asking me canonista questions as a junior about 5 years ago, when he realized Mr. Hostman the Band sub was the Mr. Hostman in the T20 book credits.)

The issue with Traveller and Canonhawks isn't any different now than in was in 1995... except that, unlike the realms and Krynn (DL), they haven't put universe shattering magical explanations to explain the rules differences. Marvel's done that once or twice, too, in the comics, to explain changes, but the games have (usually) just listed stats on either side of the change.

 

[pendragonman]

This site is a ghost town, because people who come here that might have something to contribute are driven away by the holier than thou attitudes of the canonhawks and other intolerant personalities on this site. How many unique IPs post here on a regular basis these days? 200? 300? This site used to have thousands of members who posted on a regular basis. Where did they go?[/FONT]

They went to places more hospitable and friendly because certain personalities on this site drove them away. Speaking only for me, I would post a lot more on this site if those personalities that drive others away were in fact friendlier and more accepting of viewpoints that don't conform with their narrow-minded view. In fact, the only saving grace of this site right about now is that it has an ignore list and I'm not afraid to use it.

Here! Here!

I have been playing D&D, Star Fleet, and Trav since they were all "little black books." I play the original Gamma World, and I remember the days when Avalon Hill and FASA were revered names in war gaming. I have gained a strategic victory in the "Hood" scenario in Star Fleet, both as the Klingon and as the Fed. I know the chill of the void, love the smell of overloaded weapons; I BELIEVE that "Trillion Credit Squadron" was built out of whole cloth for me and my blood brothers. Just as I know and enjoy the feel of a fine Destrier twixt my thighs as I ride down those that oppose my mission.

Who here has played West End Star Wars, and stared in wonder as a flack jacket deflected blaster shot after blaster shot? And who recalls their first GM? That kind old soul who hooked you on this crack to begin with? I can guarantee you that that old corner crack dealer was not a rules lawyer or a canon slave. They were story tellers first. They bent rules and made up rulings in the interest of telling a good story and keeping the players "stoned" on the rush of the game. They were "old school."

I am 45, married, and have three kids, two in college. All of them grew up with me gaming (of some nature) whether it was my Dark Angels doing what they do the Chaos/Traitor Marines, my squadron of D7's laying waste to Federation/Kzin squadrons, or my Fighters/Paladins/Knights putting on the line so that my teams could get away when we got in tooo deep.

I have been GMing since 1981 in (almost) every RPG I've played (Never GMed Harn, Paladium, or Warhammer). And I learned what that first GM showed me. The rules are not "rules". Inviolate. More Important Than The Game. More Important Than Having A Good Time With Friends. as some cannon hawks and rules lawyers would have you believe. The truth is, the rules are helpful guideposts to keep you on your way; but like a guidepost, sometimes it is more fum to go off path a bit with your friends.

I can honestly say that I can almost always get a game when I want one, and rarely go more than a couple weeks between sessions. Now, when I was young I thought that a couple weeks between sessions was almost like not gaming at all, but I am wiser now.

It is my hope to be considered old school. I can only dream of being held in the same esteem that I hold my first GM. And deep in your hearts, you other GMs know what I am talking about.