Why do we like older rule systems?

[Traveller]

@mbrinkhues

Traveller is necessarily a framework, describing the barest of essentials for an infinite universe. A group involved in playing a scenario or a capaign can make their adventures more elaborate, more detailed, more interesting with the input of a great deal of imagination.

Classic without supplements, which you so conveniently left out of the discussion, is generic. therefore your statement about only MgT being generic is demonstrably false. In any debate you cannot ignore facts simply because they are inconvenient to you.

So what about people like me? I use The Traveller Book (and ignore the added setting information within it), Supplement 4, a few skills to support the Supplement 4 careers from books 4 and 5, one plasma and one fusion weapon from book 4, and Supplement 2. Am I somehow playing a lesser version of Traveller because I don't use the setting full bore?

No. I am playing Traveller as it was meant to be played. You can accept it or not, but your acceptance or lack thereof doesn't change the facts.

 

[mbrinkhues]

And I have no doubt that you will continue to believe that despite reality and what anyone else says.

MGT can say what they want, unless they pay me I don't have to follow the line. So whatever they claim it is now I stick to my view/option. It's like "Merchant Marine". MGT says it means "Merchant Security" but sorry for me it will always mean "All merchant seaman/spaceman".

It's like marriage. For me Ehepaar=married couple=man+woman. Now the licence owner (German state) has changed the meaning to include same sex marriage. But I will never use the term Ehepaar for such a couple(1).

CotI has always had an overblown view of itself as "the home of all Traveller". It is nothing of the sort. If you look at the Mongoose Traveller board, it is full of people who are actually playing the game in all its settings, not bickering about irrelevant minutiae about one specific background and tenaciously refusing to acknowledge that anything else is worth talking about (which is what CotI has been for a long time).

The number of regulars over on MGT Traveller board is quite low and quite a few are regulars on this board. If one does a count my guess is number of regulars is about equal. The other boards may get more traffic but since this board here runs more on the "Traveller=Universe/Setting" concept those don't count for comparisson.

Add in that a lot of the threads over on MGT deal with rules problems, ommisions in the rules set etc. and the relevant thread count drops even more. And relevant=not rules problems

CotI is about as relevant to the current Traveller community as the Coelocanth - a living fossil, a fish thought to be long extinct but still somehow surviving today. Its continuing survival in its current fossilized form is only due to the stubborn refusal of the handful of people who still post here regularly who refuse to admit that their views are no longer relevant to the rest of the gaming community outside of this board. Those outside it view it as a quaint curiosity, nothing more.

That is fine if that's what you want, but you need to stop believing that this board is "the home of Traveller" and recognize that it is actually just caters to an ever-decreasing group of people who still insist on clinging to "the old ways".

Yes, actually a board to discuss the Traveller universe/setting IS what I want.

If I want a general RPG board there are quite a few of those. When I want to discuss general RPG I go there. When I want to discuss "Deadlands" I go to <Whoever owns Deadlands today>, Shadowrun has Dumpshock, Cyberpunk has cyberpunk.co.uk and so on. And when I want Traveller then I go to a board that discusses the Traveller universe.

You have a different view what Traveller means. You fail to give reason (other than "Mongoose says so") why I should share your view. I have at least "It has been so for the last x decades" as an argument

Besides what is the "current Traveller community"? Who defines it? Those who play? Well than this board represents at least the german community as much as MGT/13Mann does.

 

[mbrinkhues]

@mbrinkhues


Classic without supplements, which you so conveniently left out of the discussion, is generic. therefore your statement about only MgT being generic is demonstrably false. In any debate you cannot ignore facts simply because they are inconvenient to you.

I did not "conveniently leave it out". I have stated (multiple times actually) that CT only became "OTU" midway through it's live. So please do NOT put words in my mouth or accuse my of lying just because YOU read something into my posts. To quote one of mine:

Most forum members here are (more) used to "Traveller" meaning the OTU as it was true for the later half of CT, all of MT, TNE, T4 and T20 as well as GT

So check before you insult!

So what about people like me? I use The Traveller Book (and ignore the added setting information within it), Supplement 4, a few skills to support the Supplement 4 careers from books 4 and 5, one plasma and one fusion weapon from book 4, and Supplement 2. Am I somehow playing a lesser version of Traveller because I don't use the setting full bore?

No. I am playing Traveller as it was meant to be played. You can accept it or not, but your acceptance or lack thereof doesn't change the facts.

So someone who plays Mega and the OTU does not play "Traveller as it was meant to be". Interesting view. Given that for most of it's existence the OTU was the ONLY setting named Traveller one that I find rather strange and therefor reject.

 

[Vargas]

Your OPINION is incorrect, and always has been.

His opinion may not be supported by the facts but I don't believe it can be "incorrect" per se.

Personally I'm less impressed with Mongoose's opinion of what constitutes Traveller because once it loses the license, it ceases to matter. Anyone who wrote for T20 could speak authoritatively of what was or wasn't holy writ and we see where they are now. Again, people are making pronouncements here regarding what is or isn't Traveller that have no effect on anyone not writing for publication. How about concentrating on how to make playing the game more enjoyable?

Marc Miller can of course do whatever he likes, including George Lucas the game if that's his wish. (I'm not saying he has, only that he has the obvious right to do so).

 

[Prometheus]

Well it is getting stupid again.

What is the whole fight about here anyway? I like CT thought the rules are far from being perfect... it works for me and it has 40 years of support and some old timer fans. I have a feeling my kids who are Sci fi geeks ( Like their parents) will enjoy it to... In a sense I think CT though in the background static of the current RPG world will never fade...

 

[shadowcat20]

I am afraid this thread has degenerated to the point of locking it..

 

[Blix]

His opinion may not be supported by the facts but I don't believe it can be "incorrect" per se.

If something is not supported by facts, then it is incorrect. It's that simple.

He can believe what he wants, of course, but that doesn't change the fact that it is wrong.

Personally I'm less impressed with Mongoose's opinion of what constitutes Traveller because once it loses the license, it ceases to matter.

Well, if you are prepared to wait another seven years for that view to be relevant then good luck to you. Though the attitude that only what Marc Miller says is important is one typified by people on CotI - who again are in the minority. Meanwhile, everyone else is doing things with Traveller based on what Mongoose says, because they're the only ones who are actively and publicly doing anything with the game right now (unlike Marc Miller).

Again, people are making pronouncements here regarding what is or isn't Traveller that have no effect on anyone not writing for publication. How about concentrating on how to make playing the game more enjoyable?

Are you implicitly saying that the game is not enjoyable to play?
Everyone else can do whatever they want, but contrary to your previous statement, what Mongoose says IS what matters for anyone writing for publication.

 

[Blix]

Yes, actually a board to discuss the Traveller universe/setting IS what I want.

Good, I hope you are happy here.

You have a different view what Traveller means. You fail to give reason (other than "Mongoose says so") why I should share your view.

That is reason enough to share my view (being the reality of the situation). You are entitled to reject it, but you are not entitled to declare that your opinion is how things really work (well, you can declare it, but it does not make your declaration correct).

 

[Prometheus]

If something is not supported by facts, then it is incorrect. It's that simple.

He can believe what he wants, of course, but that doesn't change the fact that it is wrong.




Well, if you are prepared to wait another seven years for that view to be relevant then good luck to you. Though the attitude that only what Marc Miller says is important is one typified by people on CotI - who again are in the minority. Meanwhile, everyone else is doing things with Traveller based on what Mongoose says, because they're the only ones who are actively and publicly doing anything with the game right now (unlike Marc Miller).



Are you implicitly saying that the game is not enjoyable to play?
Everyone else can do whatever they want, but contrary to your previous statement, what Mongoose says IS what matters for anyone writing for publication.

Blix STFU.. you are just being a drama queen. This is why I hate uber-nerds/geeks. Always have to have the last word, don't you? It is almost like listening to a amped up 16 year old. If there is a mod around I hope he locks this thread

 

[Dragoner]

I never advocate a retcon until I've first spent a lot of thought on making it plausible and failed. What I find most annoying are people who insist that an explanation that merely shifts the inconsistency actually explains anything and people who insist that there HAS to be a way to explain it, even if they can't come up with one right away. The fact that sometimes they turn out to be right is besides the point. Sure, it's nice when you come up with an explanation after years and years of discussing the same thing over and over, but the amount of time and thought that goes into coming up with such explanations could usually have been better spent filling out scores of blank spots instead.


Hans

My statement wasn't pointed at you, just a general observation.

As far a filling blank spots or being creative, that's what I'm talking about.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Good, I hope you are happy here.



That is reason enough to share my view (being the reality of the situation). You are entitled to reject it, but you are not entitled to declare that your opinion is how things really work (well, you can declare it, but it does not make your declaration correct).

Oh boy, oh boy. There is a fanatic here and it's not me. You are entitled to believe in the Book Mongoose but for those who don't follow that religion it's scriptures do not matter. So have I nice day.

 

[Dragoner]

Look what can be done with the energy that would be put in complaining, to being creative:

(the first part is CT canon from 76 patrons, notes are mine)

A shipment of arms is being carried from the manufacturer
to a client state on the Imperial frontier on board an M class merchantman.
Due to the delicate nature of relations between the empire and the client states
neighbors, the vessel will proceed without escort amd with the utmost secrecy to its
destination. Information (gained at the expense of several lives) has been obtained
which reveals the sailing time and course of this vessel. To maintain cover, such
vessels usually take on small amounts of cargo and passengers along the way. The
Ine Givar wishes to divert the arms shipment for its own uses, but has no agents in
the region which would not be recognized.

5. The information obtained by the rebels is partially wrong. The vessel does not
contain arms, but does contain a full squad of lmperial marines and a 60 ton load
of drugs and other pleasure devices intended for one of the lmperial pleasure planets
notes:

The original crew has supposedly come down with Denebian Ringworm, needs new crew and company agents to

keep the drugs secure (esp from the marines).

Marclor Wismüller patron/benefactor from Spmaco Entertainment (might get itchy from Denebian Ringworm and

will need to be quarantined in cabin).

Security needed to keep Marines out of cargo, Marines get into cargo.
-Event: Halucinating Marine in main passage wearing nothing but two chrome ceremonial assault rifles,

needs to be subdued.

Some Mendinesian HighLeaf is infested with Gygaxian Hypnotoads or Rigelian Brainslugs - chaos and

hilarity ensues..(slugs/toads may be delicacy for Vegan staff).

final scene, 100 fresh cherry 2000 carry the cargo on stage for ethusiastic crowd of troops, riot ensues,

the mission is a success.

crux of mission: nobody dies.

and here a small update on my entropic darrians from my "entropic corrosion" adventure, without the arguing, they would have been much more one dimensional:

http://www.TravellerRPG.com/CotI/Gallery/index.php?n=811

I love this board.

-Robert

 

[mbrinkhues]

Actually I am waiting for paint to dry (really) so this passes time between doing the patterns of MERDC cammo on an Academy M60A1.

 

[Vargas]

Well, if you are prepared to wait another seven years for that view to be relevant then good luck to you.

Actually I don't need external validation from Mongoose, I'm quite happy playing the game I already have.

Though the attitude that only what Marc Miller says is important is one typified by people on CotI - who again are in the minority. Meanwhile, everyone else is doing things with Traveller based on what Mongoose says, because they're the only ones who are actively and publicly doing anything with the game right now (unlike Marc Miller).

Hmm, wonder where Mongoose gets it's authority from? Oh yes, that's right, it's Marc Miller, the guy who owns the whole shebang and actively allows Mongoose to legally use it.

Again, hmmm.

I think I've had enough of this . . .

 

[Dragoner]

I used to build models, time and space are lacking now, I have also been an active modder for pg2, making icons, maybe someday I'll do a striker equipment file.

 

[Traveller]

So someone who plays Mega and the OTU does not play "Traveller as it was meant to be". Interesting view. Given that for most of it's existence the OTU was the ONLY setting named Traveller one that I find rather strange and therefor reject.

Check the first post on page 7. I clearly point out that if this site wants to be a bastion of the OTU it needs to stop misleading people and change to reflect that. All you have done is to misdirect people and obfuscate the facts of the matter in an attempt to support your point of view.

The problem with you and others like you is that you see the OTU as Traveller, when really, it isn't. Traveller is a set of rules that does not require a setting to use. Ignoring Classic Traveller without supplements in making your claim that MgT is the only generic rule set is disingenuous and really only serves to show how limited your focus and the focus of people like you is.

Classic Traveller without supplements is a generic rule set. You do not have to accept it, and I know you won't. But nothing you say, and nothing you do will change this FACT.

"Playing Traveller as it was meant to be played" means making the game your own and is neither a viewpoint nor an opinion. It is simply FACT. I don't tell you what setting to use in your game, do I? I don't tell you what rules you have to use, do I? Stop trying to imply that my Traveller is any less important or relevant than yours, simply because I choose to not use the OTU. That's a pack of lies, just like this site proclaiming to be "the" home of all Traveller.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Check the first post on page 7. I clearly point out that if this site wants to be a bastion of the OTU it needs to stop misleading people and change to reflect that. All you have done is to misdirect people and obfuscate the facts of the matter in an attempt to support your point of view.

The problem with you and others like you is that you see the OTU as Traveller, when really, it isn't. Traveller is a set of rules that does not require a setting to use. Ignoring Classic Traveller without supplements in making your claim that MgT is the only generic rule set is disingenuous and really only serves to show how limited your focus and the focus of people like you is.

Classic Traveller without supplements is a generic rule set. You do not have to accept it, and I know you won't. But nothing you say, and nothing you do will change this FACT.

Once more: Stop trying to put words into my mouth or calling me a liar. If you don't understand the concept of an implied information it is NOT my problem. Again the quote:

Most forum members here are (more) used to "Traveller" meaning the OTU as it was true for the later half of CT, all of MT, TNE, T4 and T20 as well as GT

Since this is a binary discussion the staement "for the latter half of CT" automatically implies that it was generic for some short time during the publishment lifecycle of CT. The only one not getting this information here is YOU!

"Playing Traveller as it was meant to be played" means making the game your own and is neither a viewpoint nor an opinion. It is simply FACT. I don't tell you what setting to use in your game, do I? I don't tell you what rules you have to use, do I? Stop trying to imply that my Traveller is any less important or relevant than yours, simply because I choose to not use the OTU. That's a pack of lies, just like this site proclaiming to be "the" home of all Traveller.

And for the final time. Call me a liar once more and I report you. I never evaluated you "Traveller". I just stated that it is not mine, was never mine and will never be mine. Since for me Traveller IS the OTU. Since Traveller=OTU was true for most of it's existence and most of the published material. Even TNE that is based on a GENERIC rules engine was married to the OTU as was Gurps:Traveller that even had specifc "what is not GURPS compatible" chapters.

I actually don't care what you play. That's yours and your groups to decide. But me and my group decides what WE want to play. And that is OTU.

As for the "as it was meant to be": If your statement is true than WHY did GDW/Marc Miller spend nearly 20 years and three editions (four for Marc Miller alone with t4) to make Traveller material that was absolutely married to the OTU from the basic rules set out? Why is most of the good stuff Mongoose produces (Sector fleet, Reft Sector etc) actually OTU material?

One can use the rules as a "build your own" kit. But claiming it as "the one and only true way" is ignoring most of the published material

 

[Blix]

Actually I don't need external validation from Mongoose, I'm quite happy playing the game I already have.

And that is good. I am not suggesting that you need validation from anyone to play your games the way that you want them.

But that still does not mean that you or anyone else here has any authority to contradict what Mongoose decides Traveller is and what they do with it. If they declare that they are turning it more into a ruleset for which there are many backgrounds, then that is what it is and that is what it will be. You may believe otherwise, but it does not change the fact of the matter.

In practical terms, none of this really matters for anyone's games. What irks me is when people who have no authority on the subject declare that they believe must be true for everyone else. That simply is not true. Mongoose are the ones who get to say what matters for the development of the game, not some ticked-off fans with their heads in the sand.

Hmm, wonder where Mongoose gets it's authority from? Oh yes, that's right, it's Marc Miller, the guy who owns the whole shebang and actively allows Mongoose to legally use it.

And until or unless Marc Miller says otherwise (which he hasn't), Mongoose's authority stands.

Mongoose paid Marc Miller for a license that allows them to do what they like with Traveller (subject to his approval). So far, although he has interfered with the writing process of some books, Marc has allowed Mongoose's statements about what Traveller is to stand. Marc has not complained about them publishing other settings for the game either, and the OGL allows anyone to publish their own non-OTU settings for Traveller too.

It is futile and incorrect to say that Traveller is just the OTU now, yet people here still insist that it is. That is what I find so ridiculous, and that attitude is what is isolating CotI from the rest of the Traveller community. But since people seem unwilling to change, then they must accept that they are isolated from the rest of the community through their own actions.

This brings me back to the thread topic, because I think that more people here do like the older rulesets, because they have self-selected themselves into doing so. Everyone else has moved on from here.

 

[Blix]

Oh boy, oh boy. There is a fanatic here and it's not me. You are entitled to believe in the Book Mongoose but for those who don't follow that religion it's scriptures do not matter. So have I nice day.

I find it ironic that you should use a religious analogy, since I am basing my statements on facts and you are basing yours on your beliefs. You are the religious zealot here, not I.

But again, this is part of the problem. The OTU fanatics have turned the game into a religion, while everyone else treats it as a game (as it should be).

 

[mbrinkhues]

I find it ironic that you should use a religious analogy, since I am basing my statements on facts and you are basing yours on your beliefs. You are the religious zealot here, not I.

But again, this is part of the problem. The OTU fanatics have turned the game into a religion, while everyone else treats it as a game (as it should be).

Actually it's the way you come over that makes you the fanatic. Putting labels on others, claiming to know the "One true way", assuming you know other persons way of playing etc. That makes "Mongoose Fanboys" like you (as opposed to those who like the Mongoose engine) come over as a religious fanatic. If you (and traveller) where treating this as a game, you wouldn't have startet the thread-derailing instead leaving everybody to view the stuff as they like.

As for your "facts" well the only "universal" Traveller rules are early CT (and that was married to the universe quite early in its lifecycle) and currently MGT. And even MGT produces a lot more OTU stuff than the other settings it also supports. All other systems where married to the setting to the point of bending the rules (GT, T20) to fit the Traveller setting or augmenting them heavily (TNE). So claiming "Traveller is universal" rather than "Mongoose Traveller is universal" stays on shakey grounds.

Even more if one looks at MGT. The rules engine has problems reproducing anything other than OTU stuff. HS never got a construction system since the Vehicles system can not build blowers and Babylon stretched the ship system to the breaking point forcing some assumptions into the ships never seen in the shows