Why? Why?? Why!!!

[aramis]

Personally, I think MM should eat his words, unresolve Virus to being the OTU, make it the ATU, and have a post-rebellion 4I arise from the civil war... hard times made the 3I a shattered memory, but did it respectfully.

Virus just wipes the setting, does nothing for verisimilitude of the computer literate, and makes little sense in both its scope and power... It crossed the line from Sci-Fi to Sci-Fan. Not a good thing.

a 4I, say in the mid to late 1300's, would be a far better setting if it didn't have the legacies of Dave to contend with. (Dave was even disrespectful of CT and MT on line at times. He openly hated the 3I setting, and when he got the chance, destroyed it and made fun of it.)

Also, TNE's mechanics, not being an evolution of CT, drastically changed the feel. PC's were WAY too tough, and the setting was intentionally (according to Dave, on the TML in the mid 90's) more violent and less moralistic.

I've run CT era with all official rulesets out except GT. Each ruleset has a different feel. TNE had a less traveller feeling than Traveller: 2300... I even playtested T20.

TNE doesn't need the OTU; it just needs virus and ANY empire bigger than the pocket one is playing out of.

Likewise, I think that the Virus effectively KILLS the setting; moving forward with virus in tact forces any further development to acknowledge the Sci-Fan elements and deal with them. This is BAD for setting, and the good name of traveller.

Not that TNE is all that bad a ruleset, but it created a very non-traveller feel. It made no efforts to support non-official universes, since the Virus-infested encounter tables were the ONLY ones released for TNE.

 

[ACK!!]

Originally posted by Aramis:
Personally, I think MM should eat his words, unresolve Virus to being the OTU, make it the ATU, and have a post-rebellion 4I arise from the civil war... hard times made the 3I a shattered memory, but did it respectfully.

.....

Not that TNE is all that bad a ruleset, but it created a very non-traveller feel. It made no efforts to support non-official universes, since the Virus-infested encounter tables were the ONLY ones released for TNE.

In my heart of hearts, I wish the same thing though Marc said he would not do it.

Just say that the Virus was a bad idea that went too far and be done with it.

Still, something has to be done. We cannot keep going back and it all becomes too confusing for new users. Not that our situation with the T20, Gurps and Classic reprints makes things all that clear.

If you have a player that actually does a Google on Traveller rpg before they play they get freaked out by all the variants quick. WTF? Is the usual statement.

I cannot speak to T4 which I never used. However, the last system to truly have that Trav feel where everything is a task and it all can be resolved with a 2D6 was MT.

MT ruleset was not perfect and could use some tweaking but look at most of the campaigns you hear about on the CT boards. Many people use the Snapshot/Striker rulesets. Most people use the Digest Group Task System.

Heck, many people who play CT play with many of the MT rules.

Probably the coolest thing that T5 could be for the old-school fans is CT milleu with the MT rule-sets tweaked out and background updated for new TL matrix and timelines based on where we are now.

Ignore the Rebellion, pick up your MT rules and read over them. Most of the best exceptions and additions to CT made it in there. Now tweak out some new tech notes and update some equipment for basic Sci-Fi trends of today while keeping an eye on retaining that gritty Traveller feel.

Gather up all that information and publish it.

You have a Game System that can stand toe-to-toe to any system out there in the marketplace today.

 

[ScottB]

Originally posted by ACK:
Probably the coolest thing that T5 could be for the old-school fans is CT milleu with the MT rule-sets tweaked out and background updated for new TL matrix and timelines based on where we are now.

Ignore the Rebellion, pick up your MT rules and read over them. Most of the best exceptions and additions to CT made it in there. Now tweak out some new tech notes and update some equipment for basic Sci-Fi trends of today while keeping an eye on retaining that gritty Traveller feel.

Gather up all that information and publish it.

You have a Game System that can stand toe-to-toe to any system out there in the marketplace today.

Well, if the choice was to go that route, what I'd like to see is divorcing rules from setting. Produce the Traveller rules in the CT style - by which I mean a solid book of rules for sci-fi gaming with little or no setting info. Then produce settings based on those rules. Ideally, come up with an OGL-style license so third parties can make settings/adventures/whatever.

That way, those who like the 1100ish Imperium can play there, those who like TNE can play there, those who like 2300 can play there, those who like to make their own homebrew setting can play there. It seems to me the important thing is that they're all playing Traveller - that means J. Random Gamer can join a game and at least know what the rules are. And J. Random Company can make a supplement that actually has a shot at finding a market since they don't have to choose between aiming it at a small slice of the potential market or filling pages of space with conversions to different systems.

 

[ACK!!]

Originally posted by ScottB:
Well, if the choice was to go that route, what I'd like to see is divorcing rules from setting. Produce the Traveller rules in the CT style - by which I mean a solid book of rules for sci-fi gaming with little or no setting info. Then produce settings based on those rules. Ideally, come up with an OGL-style license so third parties can make settings/adventures/whatever.

That way, those who like the 1100ish Imperium can play there, those who like TNE can play there, those who like 2300 can play there, those who like to make their own homebrew setting can play there. It seems to me the important thing is that they're all playing Traveller - that means J. Random Gamer can join a game and at least know what the rules are. And J. Random Company can make a supplement that actually has a shot at finding a market since they don't have to choose between aiming it at a small slice of the potential market or filling pages of space with conversions to different systems.

I completely and utterly agree. Keeping the rules seperate from the milleu is important and a keen advantage for the LBB's -- small cheap books.

You publish three books at the same time. A character and equipment book (lots of high-tech vehicles and weapons and just regular stuff) for the players. A everything is a task book for the referee going over task based rules for combat, space and everything else. A campaign book that takes canon forward in one or another past the Rebellion and the damn virus so that every new Traveller version does not have to keep going back in time.

 

[Prometheus]

Too heady for me I am taking my ball and playing in another sandbox.

 

[savage]

ACK
Your probably not going to get me to buy into the Imperium=Good, Rebellion/Virus=Bad ideology. For
some the Imperium is plain dull. But I also think
the freighter campaigns are dull, so its viewpoint.

MT as CT Advanced? I haven't read the ship construction in years but as I recall it was redesigned significantly. When I say CT Advanced I mean that a CT ship and CT Advanced ship should be able to exist in the same universe. I also was not
thrilled with the introduction of Volume as the core element of design. The system required a significant quantity of redesign...but I'm not anti-MT, the rebellion was good stuff. It covered a lot about Imperium Navy mechanics.


Artimis,
SFiction versus SFantasy...so you think aslan and vargr are good SF and Virus is fantasy? Most of Traveller is buried in unlikely outcomes and if people would like they're dogs to speak back in galactic, it is fantasy at best.

I believe the beauty of all of the Traveller systems is the ability to remove the Fantasy elements (crazy races, grav plates) and develop a more realistic future environment in a refs' TU, if they choose too.
***
For me, IMTU I have an active virus in a TNE setting based in a pocket empire around a surviving Imperium Depot. The grav plates, crazy
races and a few other fantasy twists are there.

I'm using T20 and wished it were a bit more robust. I like the cheap supplements and that
is the biggest attraction. T5 would be wise for
going back to the cheap supplements. But not like the gurps supplements...they're lacking detail in my view. I'm suprised Marc doesn't publish the occassional supplement for the universe in order
to clean house.

Anyhow, people also appeared not to like TNE because marc didn't right it. It attempted to
implement a stronger task based system...etc. I
was fond of the ruleset. I thought it made the next logical move (for the 80s) in gaming direction but tried to keep the MT ship design feel (yucha). Afterall, FFS wasn't perfect
but it was a good start.

Just say that the Virus was a bad idea that went too far and be done with it.

Virus Lives! Seriously, its here to stay. I lobbied GDW for a bezerker-like Virus (as did many others) in the 80s...TNE was going strong while others faded. It has a big following.

Savage

 

[binky]

Originally posted by ACK:
To Binky,

I do know about 1248 and even responded to a MJD thread on the topic. It would be nice to leap ahead a while and put some distance between a new universe built on the old and the era of disgust most fans had for the Virus era.

I was thinking something even further down the pike to give the old TNE folks some breathing room to still play.

Just some ideas and opinions anyway...

Have fun.

Apologies. I hadn't seen Martin's post further up which already said basically what I did. And your idea of leaping further ahead is interesting, but possibly a little restricting for the proposed 1248 product line. Unless of course you jump several hundred years ahead, but is that then just fragmenting things further?

Having now read to the end of the thread, the idea of T5 being basically just a rules system really does strike me as the perfect way forward. Then everyone can use whatever background they like. If someone does want to explore the early years, they then can, but as a standalone product line.

T5 as CT Advanced... I like that idea.

- Neil.

 

[ACK!!]

Originally posted by binky:
Apologies. I hadn't seen Martin's post further up which already said basically what I did. And your idea of leaping further ahead is interesting, but possibly a little restricting for the proposed 1248 product line. Unless of course you jump several hundred years ahead, but is that then just fragmenting things further?

Having now read to the end of the thread, the idea of T5 being basically just a rules system really does strike me as the perfect way forward. Then everyone can use whatever background they like. If someone does want to explore the early years, they then can, but as a standalone product line.

T5 as CT Advanced... I like that idea.

- Neil.

So, what I was trying to say is leave 1248 and other TNE environments alone for the TNE fans.

Then either MM can say Virus never happened or he can leap far ahead for T5 and create a new environment -- a new chapter of canon.

What is the big deal of leaping ahead a couple of hundred years?

Some of the backward milleu jumps are much more than that.

Sure, I would hope that MM and MJD would sit down and discuss it together.

I don't want to keep playing in the Third Imperium and I don't like the Virus. The rebellion was not bad but all the players knew the deal. One said after a couple of months of playing....

"It doesn't matter how we play this out man. GDW is just going to come in and blow it all up again."

 

[binky]

Ah ha! Now I see where you're coming from. And it's not a daft idea at all. As you say, a couple of hundred years forward is no worse that 700 years backwards.

It's nice to see well reasoned discussion on this matter, it can only help in the long run.

- Neil.

 

[mike wightman]

In the Foundations of the Traveller Universe intro to T4 there is the briefest mention of other eras for Traveller to be set in- " the Virus era, the Regency, the Far Far Future, the Expeditions to the Rim, the Heat Death of the Universe..."

A couple of these could make a welcome change from the Imperium setting and still hold true to the OTU values.

 

[savage]

Sigg Oddra,
Is that in the first T4 book. I'll have to re-read it. It would be nice to have a clear concise view of the many eras of the universe. Say 1 page dedicated to each one. But it should only come from
Marc.

T5 as CT Advanced... I like that idea.

--Binky

Thanks.

Savage

 

[mike wightman]

Hi Savage,
yep, it's in the T4 main rule book.
It has a few paragraphs on each of the following eras:

Grandfather(300000BC)
The Vilani Era(4700BC-2300AD)
The Terran Confederation(2100-2300AD)
The Rule of Man(2300-2750AD)
The Long Night(2750-4550Ad)
The Third Imperium(4521-5637AD)

It has a sentence about each of these:

The Aslan Border Wars(3400-4900AD)
The Vargr Campaigns(4700-4900AD)
The Barracks Emperors(5100-5140AD)
The Solomani Expansion(5121-6500AD)
The Rebellion(5637-?AD)

It also mentions the Zhodani expeditions to the core, the Psionic Suppressions, the Jullian War(which could have been the next era book for T4), the Ilelish Revolt, the First Survey, the Solomani Rim Wars, the Hiver Interventions and the ones I mentioned in the earlier post.

There's food for thought in some of those, IMHO

 

[ACK!!]

Originally posted by Savage:
ACK
Your probably not going to get me to buy into the Imperium=Good, Rebellion/Virus=Bad ideology. For
some the Imperium is plain dull. But I also think
the freighter campaigns are dull, so its viewpoint.

MT as CT Advanced? I haven't read the ship construction in years but as I recall it was redesigned significantly. When I say CT Advanced I mean that a CT ship and CT Advanced ship should be able to exist in the same universe. I also was not thrilled with the introduction of Volume as the core element of design. The system required a significant quantity of redesign...but I'm not anti-MT, the rebellion was good stuff. It covered a lot about Imperium Navy mechanics.

Savage

Not as clear cut for me as you have it stated. I kind of liked the Rebellion actually but like the Virus that ended it that it went too far.

Come on ... I am not one of those people crying for the head of the guy who came out with the idea of the virus and the testicles of those who dared to adopt such a god-forsaken system.

Quite the contrary. I might not like the whole Duex Ex Machina feel of the Virus solution but Marc Miller that is canon. I am one those people who are saying we need to forget the personal distaste some here have for TNE's milleu and urge for canon and the Traveller timeline be pushed forward instead of always being pushed back.

Oooops... sounds like we are on different wavelengths when it comes to the idea of CT Advanced.

When I think of CT Advanced since I am not much of a gearhead I think the Digest Group Task System and Combat that brings in penetration and hits and expansion of existing tech ideas like the white globe generator, and the disentegration beam ideas. I think about a more workable experience system and lots of other more rpg focused things that MT took into account that CT did not.

BTW, I understand if you have every CT book with every JTAS and Traveller Digest issue ever published then you had no need to buy MT because you already had all those same rules. Still, it would be nice to see the rules tweaked updated and pulled together into a new milleu that took like I said before canon forward.

 

[hirch duckfinder]

just to throw a spanner in the works - i would prefer a rules light system for T5 with another time period or volume of the imperium ( 4th imperium circa 1400 ???? , new empire set far corewards circa 1500 ??? ) done in detail .

traveller's longevity and popularity can only be due to the setting .

no one ( surely , please ??? ) loves games for their die-mechanics etc . these are just methods of telling stories in an imaginary setting . its all about the highly believable background . why not just update ct a bit ? and forget your 'task systems' which formularise actions and put adventures on rails .

also , in my experience ( and less-humble-than it-ought-to-be opinion ), the simplicity of ct makes it the only rpg which doesn't frighten off new players . it basically consists of an interactive story with a few die rolls .

be brave , don't pander to the " established market " they can noodle around with their stats in T20 or GURPS ( pardon ! ). lets bring in new players by keeping things simple and stick to non-trendy classic presentation . think classic clothes , not designer fashion .

 

[savage]

Sigg Oddra,
I have 3 T4 books. And the first was a "signed" rulebook (as do many others). After starships I was very disappointed and never reopened it. Recently I picked up Pocket Empires...so thanks for the info. I'll go back and re-read it when time permits.

Did it mention TNE ...Guess I'll have to go look for myself.
For me it would be nice if the TNE virus era lasted a millenia. 1000 years of turmoil.

ACK,
I see the difference but its not that tremendous.
We agree more than you probably think.
A lot of articles and supplements have created a
dispersed, old, CT Advanced. It would me nice if they were officially rolled out with fixes. I just never considered MT to be CT Advanced. I felt it was an attempt at throwing out the original and creating a more robust product line (which is fine). I didn't say it was bad but it did have a overly complex starship development system (or poorly documented).
I have the majority of MT, TNE, T2300 and CT (GDW&Digest)books. Even a couple Gurps and now T20 books. I suppose one day I'll add to the collection. I see every reason to have all of them. I use an offshoot of the TNE ship selection system I tailored for mothballed ships. There is always something useful, we just have to revamp it.

I don't have a problem with experience in CT but can see where it uncomfortable for many, expecially progression based D&D players. I'm ref ing T20 in a TNE setting because I believe Traveller needs to move forward. Many of my players would prefer we play Gurps but we have to
see how the ball bounces. THB's vehicle design is a bit too loose for me. I don't want a TL8 chassis in my fancy TL17 ground sports car...just don't want it. But this is another topic...

Hirch,
Yes. By all means 2248 would be a great setting for T5. Go 1000 years in the future. Have TL12 and TL17 empires....go forward not backward.

Actually, I know a lot of people that loved d6 mechanics. I was one of them. But the environment makes Traveller tough on refs. Never enough details, significant public domain has been created to ensure that not such a problem but the fans drive it.
If anyone wants a simplified version of Traveller they should use the original 3 original black books for rules...that's a basic system that still works. Although, its not long before people are usually searching for the next step.

The original CT was pretty easy on new players as well. If there was a T5 it should try to organize, fix, and add to the Classic Traveller system. For example, Trillion Credit Squadron is pretty dated.

Just my thoughts, Cheers.
Savage

 

[ACK!!]

Originally posted by Savage:

ACK,
I see the difference but its not that tremendous.
We agree more than you probably think.
A lot of articles and supplements have created a
dispersed, old, CT Advanced. It would me nice if they were officially rolled out with fixes. I just never considered MT to be CT Advanced.

...

I don't have a problem with experience in CT but can see where it uncomfortable for many, expecially progression based D&D players. I'm ref ing T20 in a TNE setting because I believe Traveller needs to move forward. Many of my players would prefer we play Gurps but we have to
see how the ball bounces. THB's vehicle design is a bit too loose for me. I don't want a TL8 chassis in my fancy TL17 ground sports car...just don't want it. But this is another topic...
...
Hirch,
Yes. By all means 2248 would be a great setting for T5. Go 1000 years in the future. Have TL12 and TL17 empires....go forward not backward.
...
Actually, I know a lot of people that loved d6 mechanics. I was one of them.
...

The original CT was pretty easy on new players as well. If there was a T5 it should try to organize, fix, and add to the Classic Traveller system. For example, Trillion Credit Squadron is pretty dated.

Just my thoughts, Cheers.
Savage [/QB]

Picking and choosing your words Savage.

I agree with you that we are agreeing more disagreeing. We just keep talking past each other on a couple of issues.

We disagree on whether MT was CT Advanced. Still, we areee on d6 mechanics and both like the feel of CT.

We both agree on the idea of moving canon forward not back.

I too believe that if you put together the best house rules, articles and other errata from throughout the Traveller Universe one could easily update CT to be the best system around. I was just not expressing things clearily enough I believe.

Ok, Take CT, MT, T4 and all those Traveller Digest and JTAS classic rules (please I almost forgot some of the BITS stuff). Pick and choose the best of all the mechanics from each system. What should be the criteria for choosing the best? Only two criteria: Elegance and Simplicity ..

I like the Digest Group's Task system. Andy Slack's experience rules were just rocking. Some people say that At Close Quarters or a combo of Snapshot/Striker rules makes the best combat system. FFS or Highguard or what rules for Starship creation? What about the BITS starship combat rules? Those were supposed to rock.

Come on. I love CT but it was not perfect. I liked MT but I see how it was overly complex in some places and badly re-done in others. I can see some goodness in TNE rules for realism but gosh that stuff was a mess to play and I don't want to end up with that level complexity.

You can pick any point I have made and disagree but the general sentiments in terms of elegance and simplicity and d6 mechanics and moving canon forward.

I think we are on the same boat there.

 

[robject]

From the T5 chargen and task system rules (http://traveller5.com), it looks like T5 is rather more like a "T4 Much Improved" than a "CT Advanced". But that's not a bad thing, since T4 went back to the CT roots (in some ways) more than building on MT or TNE. No idea what the vehicle design rules will be, but I'd assume (!) we'll be able to design starships in a way similar to HG, which strikes a balance between the abstraction of a game and the requirements of realistic rules. I hope that the design rules will be as inclusive as MT, but (how can I say this right?) more user friendly.

Also, the popular hope is that the core rules be setting independent, along the lines of The Traveller Book, with a few short pages of the primary milieu if necessary. T4 failed in this regard by limiting TL in equipment and vehicles; otherwise I think T4 would have been held in higher opinion.

Finally, Virus is simply not a big enough issue to worry about. Don't like it or the timeline? Poof! It's gone, and the timeline is appropriately stretched or shrunk to your preference. It's Your Traveller after all.

 

[savage]

Point taken ACK. We're on the same boat.
I never tried the BITS combat system. We had our own home rules that worked nicely. I'll agree with Elegance and Simplicity.

Sigg,
I looked at the T4 rule book, hadly a page for all of it but the T5 site suggests a book on each era might be published. That includes The Plague (Virus Era).

Robject, you're possibly correct. I'd have to reread T4 to compare and you never know until the product hits the shelves.
As I recall the Starships book was written by a new team member at FFS. The designs were generally
weak. If the product wasn't better than CT,MT,TNE then there was no reason to use it.

Cheers,
Savage

 

[robject]

Agreed Mr. Savage. Why publish what's already been published? That was my first concern about T5 -- after all, CT is complete (just scattered all about), MT & TNE are complete and then some, T4 is neoclassic (just a bit limited), and there's GT and T20 for everyone else; how can T5 compete?

The playtest material eased my fears a bit, because the material is fresh. It's Traveller True (tm), but the cool new extensions are there that will make it worth paying for. If the rest of T5 is true to what's out there now, it will be good.

I'm still worried about some things; in particular: Is FFS3 complete enough to be the baseline for design, and can the core rules be true to the gearheads yet pleasing to the eye of casual ship designers? Can the standard ship designs be re-done yet again without boring the veterans?

I'm not worried about the milieu or alien chargen. Marc is military-saavy, so the milieu will be rocking good fun. And new bits like alien chargen are just icing on the cake.

 

[savage]

How long has that T5 material been out there?
I didn't look to hard but didn't see any dates.

On another note, I might have been a bit harsh on T4. I was browsing through it and noticed several
nice descriptions that embellished earlier publications. I liked "Poverty at TL12", for example.

If T5 were done in a CT Advanced fashion where CT
ships can readily be used (and other systems converted into CTA) I think it would sell nicely. There was a lot of dissappointment in T4...whether it was justified or not.

Savage