Why? Why?? Why!!!

[ACK!!]

Originally posted by robject:
Agreed Mr. Savage. Why publish what's already been published? That was my first concern about T5 -- after all, CT is complete (just scattered all about), MT & TNE are complete and then some, T4 is neoclassic (just a bit limited), and there's GT and T20 for everyone else; how can T5 compete?

The playtest material eased my fears a bit, because the material is fresh. It's Traveller True (tm), but the cool new extensions are there that will make it worth paying for. If the rest of T5 is true to what's out there now, it will be good.
....

I'm not worried about the milieu or alien chargen. Marc is military-saavy, so the milieu will be rocking good fun. And new bits like alien chargen are just icing on the cake.

Ok, first IMO CT is scattered and pulling it all together with tighter chargen, alien chargen guidelines, a simple solid task system like the Digest Group rules, good experience system, and the best combo of starship and personal combat rules would rock.

The new extensions in some places just smack of over-extension or needless complexity. Read my post in the wishlist. I read over the task system again to make sure I was not being too harsh but gosh it appears to be a bear. You probably know better than I -- how does it play?

How does it compare to other task system matrixes?

Also, the life pursuit thing kind of irked me because that is the sort of thing that becomes apparent in how a character is played. Why do we need to add a layer of rules around that? A simple experience system plays through this easy.

Finally the idea of continuing to go backwards in canon for milleu is the gripe that started the thread to begin with. Once again, IMHO, it is time to advance the timeline forward enough to give the TNE folks room and progress things forward.

Tell me why I am wrong on this.

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by Savage:
ACK
Your probably not going to get me to buy into the Imperium=Good, Rebellion/Virus=Bad ideology. For
some the Imperium is plain dull. But I also think
the freighter campaigns are dull, so its viewpoint.

The Imperium as good? Bad? Neither. It is, however, one of the selling points for three editions, and respectfully handled (albeit roughly!) in a fourth. It WAS AND IS what traveller is to a great many.

MT as CT Advanced? I haven't read the ship construction in years but as I recall it was redesigned significantly. When I say CT Advanced I mean that a CT ship and CT Advanced ship should be able to exist in the same universe. I also was not thrilled with the introduction of Volume as the core element of design. The system required a significant quantity of redesign...but I'm not anti-MT, the rebellion was good stuff. It covered a lot about Imperium Navy mechanics.

All the design elements EXCEPT jump fuel requirments being 5x JDrive Volume appeared in either HG or Striker.

Artimis,

Aramis, as in the musketeer and/or the world in the Spinward marches.

SFiction versus SFantasy...so you think aslan and vargr are good SF and Virus is fantasy? Most of Traveller is buried in unlikely outcomes and if people would like they're dogs to speak back in galactic, it is fantasy at best.

The Vargr are, in fact, a wonderful bit of Sci-Fi. Uplifts are part of the Semi-Hard Sci-Fi tradion.

The Aslan are as well developed a race as any in any other sci-fi game I've read. In fact, few come close to traveller (except TNE) in respectful and detailed attempts to avoid "Man In Rubber Suit". That Aslan are "Samurai Lions" bothers me not at all, despite it not being terrific Sci-Fi, it's good literature. Animal Ailiteration is common for aliens throughout science fiction. See also Taura in the Vorkosiverse, the Cateni (by McCaffree), The Kzin, and many others.

I believe the beauty of all of the Traveller systems is the ability to remove the Fantasy elements (crazy races, grav plates) and develop a more realistic future environment in a refs' TU, if they choose too.
***
For me, IMTU I have an active virus in a TNE setting based in a pocket empire around a surviving Imperium Depot. The grav plates, crazy
races and a few other fantasy twists are there.

I'm using T20 and wished it were a bit more robust. I like the cheap supplements and that
is the biggest attraction. T5 would be wise for
going back to the cheap supplements. But not like the gurps supplements...they're lacking detail in my view. I'm suprised Marc doesn't publish the occassional supplement for the universe in order
to clean house.

Anyhow, people also appeared not to like TNE because marc didn't right it. It attempted to
implement a stronger task based system...etc. I
was fond of the ruleset. I thought it made the next logical move (for the 80s) in gaming direction but tried to keep the MT ship design feel (yucha). Afterall, FFS wasn't perfect
but it was a good start.


</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Just say that the Virus was a bad idea that went too far and be done with it.

Virus Lives! Seriously, its here to stay. I lobbied GDW for a bezerker-like Virus (as did many others) in the 80s...TNE was going strong while others faded. It has a big following.

Savage </font>[/QUOTE]I liked some of the changes TNE made mechanically. I disliked more it's combat systems... as they were dramatically flawed... PC's felt no threat unless outnumbered or faced by obviouusly "GMPC" characters.

The overall feel was a move towards the flash-gordon saturday matinee feel. And away from a "Sci-Fi" approach to one of "Don't Ask us how it works, it just does" to many setting elements, especially virus and aliens.

TNE is a fine game... it just doesn't feel like CT nor MT, nor 2300... nor even T4.

CT, MT, T4, T20 all work fine without aliens. TNE (and 2300) doesn't work well WITH aliens.

 

[ACK!!]

Originally posted by Aramis:
I liked some of the changes TNE made mechanically. I disliked more it's combat systems... as they were dramatically flawed... PC's felt no threat unless outnumbered or faced by obviouusly "GMPC" characters.

The overall feel was a move towards the flash-gordon saturday matinee feel. And away from a "Sci-Fi" approach to one of "Don't Ask us how it works, it just does" to many setting elements, especially virus and aliens.

TNE is a fine game... it just doesn't feel like CT nor MT, nor 2300... nor even T4.

CT, MT, T4, T20 all work fine without aliens. TNE (and 2300) doesn't work well WITH aliens.

T20 huh?

I have been avoiding the system because I hate d20 and yes I tried d20 before. Its the same for me when it comes to GURPS. Nothing wrong with GURPS or T20 I guess. Its just me. I did not like it.

I have always like the d6 dice mechanics. I don't know enough about T4 honestly. I was not playing rpgs at the time that came out.

Honestly, I was hoping at one time to find out more about it on-line or here in the forums but there is not much here.

I believe it was either Freelance Traveller that had a review to T4 where the author said he would have given it a 10 out of 10 if there had not been so many mistakes in the materials.

Another person made the statement that a simple complete correction of T4 would make a great T5 system.

What do you guys think?

Good enough idea to start another thread?

I am ready for a 4th Imperium or at the least a real progression in the timeline far enough ahead to as I have said before to give the TNE folks still playing some breathing room.

I guess I should make such hash out of looking back. After all, I have built a campaign scenario out of fighting terroists in post-Fifth Frontier era Spinward Marches before the Rebellion. 1112 - 1116 timeframe.

 

[savage]

I disliked more it's combat systems... as they were dramatically flawed...

Show me a combat system that's perfect certainly not CT, MT, TNE, T2300, T4, T20 or GT. Actually, the answer would be "home rules" at this point.

TNE is a fine game... it just doesn't feel like CT nor MT, nor 2300... nor even T4.

Yes. Marc didn't work with it, write it or (as far as I'm aware) provide input. He had left GDW at this point. So, with that in mind, they dared to be different.

Another person made the statement that a simple complete correction of T4 would make a great T5 system.

What do you guys think?

That would be T4 v2 not T5. I am not apposed to the concept of fixing T4 but there is a lot to fix.

am ready for a 4th Imperium or at the least a real progression in the timeline far enough ahead to as I have said before to give the TNE folks still playing some breathing room.

Yep 1000 years of sector sized empires...IMO, including the future 4th Imperium. How about a TL17-18 4th Imperium!

Savage

 

[ACK!!]

Originally posted by Savage:
Yep 1000 years of sector sized empires...IMO, including the future 4th Imperium. How about a TL17-18 4th Imperium!

Savage

Hell, as long as we kept the really neat tech at a large enough scale. Disentegrators and stuff like that only for big military ships. As long as we did not get too many munchkin items thrown in for characters then I am too cool with that.

Maybe the best thing is to leave the 4th Imperium to MJD and the post TNE years, skip over it entirely.

Go straight to the 5th Imperium for Traveller5. Now that is an idea.

Imagine the perfect role-playing experience:

CT + DG Tasks + adjusted Striker combat + Advanced chargen fom MT + Quick chargen from T5 playtest + Andy Slack's HR on experience + Maybe Mayday rules for quick space combat (I liked those stone me know) + vehicle/ship gen rules updated but compatible with CT + more pictures + more equpment + alien chargen rules builtin

Adjust as needed for above (I role-play not a gearhead at all)

MJD and the TNE folks have all the room in the world to move around. Make the 4th Imperium a 1000 year empire and open at the start of the 5th Imperium. Yes, I am just talking off the top of my head here.

What do you think?

 

[savage]

ACK,

If I see another one of these "all society dies" and then an intergalactic empire springs up overnight I'm gonna get ill.
I haven't had the stomach to sign up for MJD's
1248. I'll like something and it'll get written out and then I'll me bummed.

The 4th Imperium should be about 2 1/2 sectors for the next 800+ years. Then it begins to growth and
merging into something actually above the 3rd Imperium. Call it the 4th Imperium on Steroids or
the 5th Imperium but its severely big (imperium,solomani, alsan, vargr, hiver big)!
Ave Imperium Member TL17
-J36 per home rules at TL17
-Disintegrators and other mean weapons
-AI w/out a mean streak. Avatars on military starships over 10kt
-wormholes (stargates) for communications and limited travel
-and an enemy, so very, very bad

Heck, I'm GDW published perhaps, its time to get back in the swing of things. I should go to Marc and ask to write the Far, Far Future Baby and it Rocks...

No munhkin items, darn. I love good junk. How about 1 time use munchkin items.

What do you think Robject?

Savage

 

[ACK!!]

Originally posted by Savage:
ACK,

If I see another one of these "all society dies" and then an intergalactic empire springs up overnight I'm gonna get ill.
I haven't had the stomach to sign up for MJD's
1248. I'll like something and it'll get written out and then I'll me bummed.

Come on, I was only half joking but MJD does need room to breath so to speak in terms of history. Especially if Marc Miller tries to write forward the canon instead of doing a milleu -500 with a lemon lime twist past thing again.

Still, the sticky part of what Lord IronWolf first mentioned about moving canon forward is the problem you run into with the post-TNE stuff being done here. Lots of neat ideas.

The real trick is to make a campaign out of it. I don't want a the-whole-universe-is-changing-around-you but all you are doing is running a far trader and trying to make payments campaign. Ran into that with a Fifth Frontier War. How do make the characters feel like they are part of the struggle? That is the tough stuff.

Originally posted by Savage:

The 4th Imperium should be about 2 1/2 sectors for the next 800+ years. Then it begins to growth and
merging into something actually above the 3rd Imperium. Call it the 4th Imperium on Steroids or
the 5th Imperium but its severely big (imperium,solomani, alsan, vargr, hiver big)!
Ave Imperium Member TL17
-J36 per home rules at TL17
-Disintegrators and other mean weapons
-AI w/out a mean streak. Avatars on military starships over 10kt
-wormholes (stargates) for communications and limited travel
-and an enemy, so very, very bad

Heck, I'm GDW published perhaps, its time to get back in the swing of things. I should go to Marc and ask to write the Far, Far Future Baby and it Rocks...

No munhkin items, darn. I love good junk. How about 1 time use munchkin items.

What do you think Robject?

Savage

No munchkin items does not mean new cool, logical equipment. People confuse the two sometimes around here. They say, "It is not canon so it must be munchkin line." (or if it ever appeared in Cyberpunk or Shadowrun .. oops they might be right about that one.

)

J36?!? Woh, that seems a bit much but damn Jump-2 is soooo slow sometimes.

Disentegrators are fun for big ships.

The only munchkin item I kind of have the kicks for is a force field (limited not-so-Black-Globe) style shields for smaller ships. I know that space combat is fine without it but if its written right it could be sooo cool. Writing it in correctly is the only nasty point. Otherwise, there goes the game mechanics and fun factor right out the window and this ref knows it.

Really looking for some real tech movement in terms of weaponary. The entire weapon list for Trav is kind of small in the grand scheme of things if you only include the stuff we have not already seen in our lifetime. No, I don't want a BFG we already have plasma and fushion weapons. In fact, I am not totally positive what to do in that regard but I am not a military person or a gunsmith.

Avatars on starships sounds very cool.

The age-old issue comes into play really quick. How to balance that gritty tech feel of Traveller with newer tech that might either make it feel to cybertechish or on the other hand too space fantasy ala Star Trek and Star Wars and all those other Star programs.

Still, tech has to move forward. White Globe generators, nueral weapons and disentegrators have already kind of made it in right toward the end.

It is time to move the genre .... That Savage I think we both agree on.

 

[savage]

We agree but how much more than 800 years would MJD need for breathing room.

I'm running a merc TNE 1212 campaign that abuses some terminology loopholes in several MT books. I
could never do the free trader (aka Firefly) scenario. Not enough grit. I also don't understand the we want to write future TNE but not really TNE" crowd. I guess, I like all the versions of Traveller, my fatal flaw.

Why does everyone assume that the far future will be pretty and clean? Has anyone ever figured out why star trek never gets dirty unless its ships get blasted. Don't recall captain kirk ever tripping over a robot mop.

Yes. The far, far, future sounds fun. I was going to get 1248 to know what happens...

Savage

 

[savage]

ok how about 1500 years...

 

[ACK!!]

Originally posted by Savage:
Why does everyone assume that the far future will be pretty and clean? Has anyone ever figured out why star trek never gets dirty unless its ships get blasted. Don't recall captain kirk ever tripping over a robot mop.

Traveller always had that sort grimmy, gritty feel to it like the whole thing needed a good scrubbing with lysol cleaner. At least IMTU it did.

Originally posted by Savage:
Yes. The far, far, future sounds fun. I was going to get 1248 to know what happens...

ok how about 1500 years...

I was just throwing out numbers really. I don't care that much as long as MJD and the man Marc Miller can figure it out.

Maybe that is the key I don't care about specifics as much. I just think canon can move forward and tech too without making it either Third Imperium rehashed or TNE in a new timeframe.

It just needs to capture the flavor of some CT elements and maybe some TNE elements as well. The intrigue between corporations and nobles and local populations played into many a Traveller campaign for me. Some of the edge of your seat reclaiming space stuff from TNE could be cool too. It all depends on how it is done and how well it is supported.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Savage:
If I see another one of these "all society dies" and then an intergalactic empire springs up overnight I'm gonna get ill.
I haven't had the stomach to sign up for MJD's
1248. I'll like something and it'll get written out and then I'll me bummed.

Just a little clarification. In 1248 all of society does NOT die. Yes, a lot of it does die or badly regress. But there are at least three human states that never lose interstellar capability, NOT including the Regency. Sure, they get smacked around, but they never get knocked out.

So they don't all die and the 1248 empires don't spring up overnight.

 

[savage]

Just a little clarification.

Daryen.

Not necessary. But thanks for the extra info. I'm
looking forward to 1248. MJD has a lot of talent
and I'm sure it'll be great. I'll probably wait
for the final version (pdf or printed).
I was rambling and concerned with any sort of recovery being too quick. It takes time lots of time.

ACK
We're in agreement. My campaign universe has refitted, mothballed imperium navy ships 96
years after the rebellion. The ship the players
have is actually over 200 yrs old. I do grit as
well.


Savage

 

[Lord Iron Wolf]

Athough the fifth Imperium sounds good the better question is what was the fourth Imperium and what happened to it? No cheating with repeating 1-3 Imperiums.

LIW

 

[mike wightman]

Athough the fifth Imperium sounds good the better question is what was the fourth Imperium and what happened to it?

Umm, do you know something you're not telling us?

 

[Straybow]

MM: As a matter of canon, I have resolved that TNE (virus, etc) is part of canon,
and needs to be explained as best it can.

EvilDrG: Why is it that people take TNE as some kind of personal affront? I really don't understand this attitude.

No, it isn't that. For me, it is partly that when I hear "canon" I can't help but think of how much Star Wars "canon" sucks. Heck, I didn't even bother to watch Clone Wars until it happened to be on HBO when I could watch it. I doubt I would've interrupted my schedule to watch it, or spent $2 renting it.

Looking back at all the Traveller stuff that came out since I was gaming in college 20 yrs ago, I say the same thing. Nice, but I don't need it.

Separate the game mechanics from the milieu. Period.

 

[TheEngineer]

Originally posted by Straybow:
Separate the game mechanics from the milieu. Period.

Guess thats the most important thing every publisher, producer of Traveller stuff should consider !
If they do not, things will become worse.

Regards,

mert

 

[ACK!!]

Originally posted by Lord Iron Wolf:
Athough the fifth Imperium sounds good the better question is what was the fourth Imperium and what happened to it? No cheating with repeating 1-3 Imperiums.

LIW

Come on, Lord Ironwolf I was half-joking. 5th Imperium for Traveller5 get it?

Really, I do not care as long as MJD and Marc Miller can have a nice long email, phone conversation and give each other some breathing room. And more importantly, Canon moves forward.

To be honest, even though the milleu 200 was supposed to be the "supported" milleu, I saw on his TOC.pdf from Traveller5 a list of other books he was thinking about doing which looked like campaign settings and sourcebooks for many milleus.

I am with you on not repeating the last three Imperiums. CT did make you use your imagination a lot but there are a combo of ideas that made the Spinward Marches and that 3i environment so popular at the time:

1. The frontier mentality.

2. Intriques from Nobles

3. Corporate intrique from the Megacorporations.

4. Threat from the outside (the Zho)

5. Lots of talks back in the late 70's about terroist intrique and such.

Combine these out and you had some good adventure making material.

Read through 76 Patrons.

I have decided to forge a whole campaign by tying together a string of adventures based on those Patron encounters to a common theme.

Good stuff.

 

[savage]

Athough the fifth Imperium sounds good the better question is what was the fourth Imperium and what happened to it? No cheating with repeating 1-3 Imperiums.

Actually, I was serious. 5th instead of 4th...I have
several ideas on the far, far, future how and why...but it depends what 1248 looks like.


Savage

 

[aramis]

Well, I'm philosophically opposed to the pay-to-playtest mode for 1248... it will result in a small few diehard TNEers shaping what whill become official for the rest of us... without recourse to views which favor less kill-happy settings.


T5 in the 5I makes sense... much more so than M200.

But I agree, seeing what 1248 does to the universe might make it worthless. Or worse.

 

[ACK!!]

Originally posted by Savage:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Athough the fifth Imperium sounds good the better question is what was the fourth Imperium and what happened to it? No cheating with repeating 1-3 Imperiums.

Actually, I was serious. 5th instead of 4th...I have
several ideas on the far, far, future how and why...but it depends what 1248 looks like.


Savage </font>[/QUOTE]Half joking is half serious. 4th Imperium or 5th Imperium does not matter as long as Marc Miller and MJD can figure something out so they are not stepping on each other's toes with Marc forging the 5th Imperium or later 4th Imperium or whatever on the back of an idea that MJD ends up trouncing.

However, I honestly believe with Lord Ironwolf that canon must go forward eventually. There is too much nice tech and ideas that could be brought out in a future campaign.

Quite honestly, I think it is time for a man with a history of looking at sci-fi to come forward and figure how to bridge some of the new ideas rippling through science fiction and try how to figure that into a far future campaign. Forging the ideas in as much hard science as possible. It would help to do that in a forward facing milleu.