Why? Why?? Why!!!
- Thread starter Lord Iron Wolf
- Start date
Lord Iron Wolf
SOC-12
Ack,
Your idea of the Fifth Imperium sparked the writer in me about the obvious question: What happened to the Fourth Imperium? I know you were joking from the tone of your message but it still raises an interesting question. After CT has the First and Second Imperium which were just part of the past and used to add depth to the Third Imperium. I have no trouble with a short-lived Fourth Imperium that rebuilt from the Viruses' havoc on Known Space. But in that stability would be the seeds of its destruction and the aftermath/remnants left to form the Fifth Imperium.
Another problem comes up with trying to modernize Traveller X. The basis of Traveller is the SF books written in the 40's and 50's. I see a lot of those stories in Traveller. Updating the technology is fine but it will change the Traveller Universe due to the effects of that technology. If you do the mental exersize for a science fiction writer called: "Ask the Next Question", you will see many changes to the basic framework of the Traveller Universe. The question is: are we willing to support many technology changes that will irreversably change the Traveller universe?
On the other hand are we willing to put up with the anachronisums in the Traveller game: Feudal/Aristocratic social classes, WWII battleship style combat fought with Starships, futuristic weapons that take several shots to kill and other things that are more reminisent of our last century that the future possibilities? It's a question we will have to consider.
I want to see the future of Traveller's known space and the reorganization of humaniti and the other sophonts. I also want to see a remixture of empires and rivalries that produces and new playing field, not a rehash of the milleu of the Third Imperium. An advance in the knowable technology will produce some new equipment and its effects but I still want to see adventures coming down to "Courage & Cunning", not just a few toys or McGuffens.
Sorry for a Rambling Post,
Lord Iron Wolf
Your idea of the Fifth Imperium sparked the writer in me about the obvious question: What happened to the Fourth Imperium? I know you were joking from the tone of your message but it still raises an interesting question. After CT has the First and Second Imperium which were just part of the past and used to add depth to the Third Imperium. I have no trouble with a short-lived Fourth Imperium that rebuilt from the Viruses' havoc on Known Space. But in that stability would be the seeds of its destruction and the aftermath/remnants left to form the Fifth Imperium.
Another problem comes up with trying to modernize Traveller X. The basis of Traveller is the SF books written in the 40's and 50's. I see a lot of those stories in Traveller. Updating the technology is fine but it will change the Traveller Universe due to the effects of that technology. If you do the mental exersize for a science fiction writer called: "Ask the Next Question", you will see many changes to the basic framework of the Traveller Universe. The question is: are we willing to support many technology changes that will irreversably change the Traveller universe?
On the other hand are we willing to put up with the anachronisums in the Traveller game: Feudal/Aristocratic social classes, WWII battleship style combat fought with Starships, futuristic weapons that take several shots to kill and other things that are more reminisent of our last century that the future possibilities? It's a question we will have to consider.
I want to see the future of Traveller's known space and the reorganization of humaniti and the other sophonts. I also want to see a remixture of empires and rivalries that produces and new playing field, not a rehash of the milleu of the Third Imperium. An advance in the knowable technology will produce some new equipment and its effects but I still want to see adventures coming down to "Courage & Cunning", not just a few toys or McGuffens.
Sorry for a Rambling Post,
Lord Iron Wolf
daryen
SOC-14 1K
While it is pointless to argue with philosophical positions, I do want to argue your conclusion. From what I have seen, some of those "diehard TNEers" you worry about hate the project even more than you. Also, know that at least some working on the playtest are avowed NON-TNEers.
And while you may or may not like the method used to achieve the new setting (some of which was dictated by what went before), the setting seems to me to be what most players have been asking for for a long time.
While it is pointless to argue with philosophical positions, I do want to argue your conclusion. From what I have seen, some of those "diehard TNEers" you worry about hate the project even more than you. Also, know that at least some working on the playtest are avowed NON-TNEers.
And while you may or may not like the method used to achieve the new setting (some of which was dictated by what went before), the setting seems to me to be what most players have been asking for for a long time. </font>[/QUOTE]I do know, amongst those that I have played traveller with over the last decade, all of them want the whole virus era scrapped. A few want hard times scrapped. I know (personally) no person that I've met faace to face who liked TNE's settings. Not one of the gamers I've met face to face. A number like the mechanics of FF&S, and are die hard fans of the D20 TNE task system. I've only seen TNE settings "liked" by persons on line. And anything that includes Virus is definitely NOT what the traveller players that matter to me (to wit, those I have gamed with and/or am likely to game with) have ever wanted.
I dislike the pay to playtest for other reasons, too... I'm unwilling to spend money on something that I can neither flip through at the store, skim at a friends, nor read a review by a person I trust the "Traveller judgement" of.
I've seen what MJD can do. He might be able to "De-Magic" Virus. But it would be a major retcon.
daryen
SOC-14 1K
Unfortunately, that is not one of the options. The powers that be have already decreed that, for better or worse, the Rebellion, Hard Times, and Virus all occured.
Therefore, whoever is to move the timeline forward must deal with the mess left over by TNE. MJD is attempting that, and is attempting it in such a way as those who want to make input can.
--aramis
Well, how do you really feel.
My players like it. And I like it. Its in print and therefore canon. So, I would suggest using the Gurps timeline and allowing those that do enjoy the collapsed Imperium their rights to play in and "grow" that canon universe.
But what you do in YTU is purely your initiative.
Yeah I can see that as a potential problem when
refunds for failed projects are not assured.
I also like seeing and flipping through the
final product although I'm very pro PDF because
paper is a bit of a pain. It's nice to drag
around a laptop instead of a box of gaming materials. But they do suggest that it allows
quicker production of the products...that is a
positive.
Savage
From the playtest preorder page:Originally posted by Savage:
And that if it failed to go to print the playtesters would be paying a print price for a pdf...
but that is very unlikely.
" In the event the printing of a product you have preordered is cancelled for any reason, you will be refunded the originally billed price, less $10.00 for the actual playtest access and your copy of the final PDF version of the product. "
/me shrugs
Casey
Bill Coffin
SOC-7
As somebody who's only ever played CT, I find the endless chatter over the various settings interesting, but in a very detached way. If T5 is to become a reality, why not start it by publishing the core rules and then releasing millieu books one after another, with each one covering one of the major setting iterations that has come down the pike? That way, you've got a universal rules set that you can slot into whatever setting you like, including whatever new "historic" setting may be in the works? Maybe I'm missing something here, but that seems like the best way to do things, since it'll include everybody.
as somebody who used to write RPGs for a living, I think that advancing the timeline of a setting folks are familiar with is just a bad idea. Keep things always on the erge of happening. A war is brewing, a rebellion is forming, some catastrophe is in the opening stages. That always lends a sense of urgency to the world and gives players plenty to do. You don't need ot inflict damage to an already loved and understood setting to get folks to play the heck out of it. If you MUST wreck something, wreck a small corner of the original setting and leave the rest for the flks who have nothing against it.
as somebody who used to write RPGs for a living, I think that advancing the timeline of a setting folks are familiar with is just a bad idea. Keep things always on the erge of happening. A war is brewing, a rebellion is forming, some catastrophe is in the opening stages. That always lends a sense of urgency to the world and gives players plenty to do. You don't need ot inflict damage to an already loved and understood setting to get folks to play the heck out of it. If you MUST wreck something, wreck a small corner of the original setting and leave the rest for the flks who have nothing against it.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Core rules followed immediately by, or released with, a setting book would get my vote.
I would want an update of FF&S released at the same time, if only on cd as pdf files. Come to think of it, the setting books could be paper plus pdf to make it easier to make player handouts and game aids.
I would want an update of FF&S released at the same time, if only on cd as pdf files. Come to think of it, the setting books could be paper plus pdf to make it easier to make player handouts and game aids.
Ok, here we go back to the subject at hand with Bill Coffin's ideas mixed in for fun.
A nice hardcover book (the industry almost demands this nowadays) but the graphics are very LBB'ish
example from robject:
T5 Cover draft
All the rules are covered in one big hardbound book that has been playtested in part by a number of people.
Now, what about supplements?
You start issuing mileu books at almost the same exact time.
mileu 0, mileu 100, mileu way far future, CT setting, whatever ... The fact the game cannot be tied to a single mileu. It is just too damn limiting.
Keep the mileu out of the Core rules and our discussion is sidelined to the supplements.
Also, I believe that Marc Miller has already stated he wanted to do a Far, Far Future supplement mileu anyway.
MJD could do a TNE or post-TNE mileu book with dual T20 and T5 stats and ideas. Listen some people like D20 and will back that product despite T5 and some people will play T5 and other people will play CT till they die. It is just the way of things. I do not see T5 being competition for T20. Just my opinion and the QLI/RPGREALMS folks may feel different.
A new Central Supply Catalog and a new Fire, Fushion and Steel that makes sense would be crucial. Wait! Should there be equipment, vehicle creation rules in the core rules? No. Either put it in the Core or put it out as a supplement but don't do both. I mean it. Two different places to find rules is not as bad as having two different places to look and conflicting rules.
What about Alien Races then? Can the Core rules do them justice? No new rules in the Alien Modules. Instead you have more descriptions and backgrounds and ideas and planets detailed to give them life and power.
What about ships? A Ships of the Imperium with descriptions and Class names and deckplans are needed. Sure, you almost have to (for the newbie) include some of the classics. But for god's sakes there has to be more than a deckplan for the Scout and the Far Trader.
Just some ideas.
A nice hardcover book (the industry almost demands this nowadays) but the graphics are very LBB'ish
example from robject:
T5 Cover draft
All the rules are covered in one big hardbound book that has been playtested in part by a number of people.
Now, what about supplements?
You start issuing mileu books at almost the same exact time.
mileu 0, mileu 100, mileu way far future, CT setting, whatever ... The fact the game cannot be tied to a single mileu. It is just too damn limiting.
Keep the mileu out of the Core rules and our discussion is sidelined to the supplements.
Also, I believe that Marc Miller has already stated he wanted to do a Far, Far Future supplement mileu anyway.
MJD could do a TNE or post-TNE mileu book with dual T20 and T5 stats and ideas. Listen some people like D20 and will back that product despite T5 and some people will play T5 and other people will play CT till they die. It is just the way of things. I do not see T5 being competition for T20. Just my opinion and the QLI/RPGREALMS folks may feel different.
A new Central Supply Catalog and a new Fire, Fushion and Steel that makes sense would be crucial. Wait! Should there be equipment, vehicle creation rules in the core rules? No. Either put it in the Core or put it out as a supplement but don't do both. I mean it. Two different places to find rules is not as bad as having two different places to look and conflicting rules.
What about Alien Races then? Can the Core rules do them justice? No new rules in the Alien Modules. Instead you have more descriptions and backgrounds and ideas and planets detailed to give them life and power.
What about ships? A Ships of the Imperium with descriptions and Class names and deckplans are needed. Sure, you almost have to (for the newbie) include some of the classics. But for god's sakes there has to be more than a deckplan for the Scout and the Far Trader.
Just some ideas.
I'd argue against the millieu books being published in rapid succession.
Pick one, then support the hell out of it, and INVALIDATE THE HECK out of ALL the prior stuff. Make it clear that the setting is a NEW version, not just a rehash. Ruthlessly prune contradictory and/or undesireable elements. Reset canon to a new, clean slate.
A year or two later, provide a different setting., again building solely upon both player input and the new canon, and ignoring what came before.
There are serious issues growing in that GTTU has lots more details, some controversial, that are fixed as GT canon, but really are not CT canon &/or T20, T4, MT, nor TNE canon, either. And T20 being used to argue TCS issues; T20 is only canonical for setting, not rules.
This kind of cross fertilization is not only confusing to the newcomer, but inherently bad for the game overall...
T5 needs to prune the tree. Not that GT needs to go away, nor T20. But T5 needs to make a "Clean Break" to a new canon.
Pick one, then support the hell out of it, and INVALIDATE THE HECK out of ALL the prior stuff. Make it clear that the setting is a NEW version, not just a rehash. Ruthlessly prune contradictory and/or undesireable elements. Reset canon to a new, clean slate.
A year or two later, provide a different setting., again building solely upon both player input and the new canon, and ignoring what came before.
There are serious issues growing in that GTTU has lots more details, some controversial, that are fixed as GT canon, but really are not CT canon &/or T20, T4, MT, nor TNE canon, either. And T20 being used to argue TCS issues; T20 is only canonical for setting, not rules.
This kind of cross fertilization is not only confusing to the newcomer, but inherently bad for the game overall...
T5 needs to prune the tree. Not that GT needs to go away, nor T20. But T5 needs to make a "Clean Break" to a new canon.
any "new, clean slate" is likely to have just as many contradictory and/or undesireable elements as the original. one observes that the "contradictory and undesireable elements" all seem to arise from the hard science/wargame aspect of traveller, while the rpg aspect carries along just fine. traveller support should emphasize roleplaying. as for the hard science/wargame aspect, a smorgasbord approach, where all rulesets and milieus are supported on a demand-driven basis, seems most likely to succeed - it's what everyone does anyway.
'course, I have no business interest in traveller. those who sell it must cater to demand, and if there's no demand for an rpg then there's no reason to support it.
That is an interesting idea.
However, I have begun to warm up to the concept of keeping mileu out of the core rules all together.
I guess you are right in the sense that one mileu should be the default and I would choose the future something just far enough ahead of MJD to give him room. That way the tech could almost be the same but new ideas could be introduced without "disturbing" canon.
However, I do think that sourcebooks dealing with other eras would be interesting and sell well with the old crowd. Other systems have multiple campaign settings and this should be seen no differently.
I am not sure honestly there is a need to completely wipe the slate clean. We have to look at the vastness of not only the setting itself but the timeframe. The Imperium and the states around it make for a huge setting with tons of possibilities in terms of both time and space.
Just to add my 0.02Cr...
I would have to concur with most posters who do not wish to wipe the slate clean but it becomes increasingly complicated to satisfy the desires of the Imperial Campaign as there is so much history.
Those milieus needing patching could be bridged by individual sourcebooks but that would create all sorts of problems for newbies who would pick up a revised Imperial Squadrons and suddenly find the milieu is all about the First Imperial Civil War then in another book dealing with exploration it could be set in the time of the great Vilani migration...us, old timers, would love it but the newbie would ultimately be confused.
So rather than cleaning the slate, why not have start a milieu on the frontiers of the Imperium but don't explicitly state which milieu it actually takes place in nor use the proper names that every Traveller worth their salt would know.
For example, using generic names, such as Empire, Federation, Earthlings/Bilani, Bioware Inc., Confederation, Postal Union, etc. Rather than the proper names of: Third Imperium, Solomani/Viani, SuSag LIC, "Antarian League" or the "Yillean Confederation", etc would keep the players and referees guessing and create ample room for experimentation.
Possibily, one of the better milieus to undertake this project is Milieu 200, as the concepts of Imperium are still in formation but we could alternately set it in a Pocket Empire during the Long Night...or why not in Zhodani Space?
Even if one wants to keep the history and proper names why not set the milieu in Reaver's Deep, the Lost Keith supplement (published by Cargonaught Press) provides more than enough conflict between the different interstellar powers.
I would have to concur with most posters who do not wish to wipe the slate clean but it becomes increasingly complicated to satisfy the desires of the Imperial Campaign as there is so much history.
Those milieus needing patching could be bridged by individual sourcebooks but that would create all sorts of problems for newbies who would pick up a revised Imperial Squadrons and suddenly find the milieu is all about the First Imperial Civil War then in another book dealing with exploration it could be set in the time of the great Vilani migration...us, old timers, would love it but the newbie would ultimately be confused.
So rather than cleaning the slate, why not have start a milieu on the frontiers of the Imperium but don't explicitly state which milieu it actually takes place in nor use the proper names that every Traveller worth their salt would know.
For example, using generic names, such as Empire, Federation, Earthlings/Bilani, Bioware Inc., Confederation, Postal Union, etc. Rather than the proper names of: Third Imperium, Solomani/Viani, SuSag LIC, "Antarian League" or the "Yillean Confederation", etc would keep the players and referees guessing and create ample room for experimentation.
Possibily, one of the better milieus to undertake this project is Milieu 200, as the concepts of Imperium are still in formation but we could alternately set it in a Pocket Empire during the Long Night...or why not in Zhodani Space?
Even if one wants to keep the history and proper names why not set the milieu in Reaver's Deep, the Lost Keith supplement (published by Cargonaught Press) provides more than enough conflict between the different interstellar powers.
Damn nice cover! I hope we can see similar art inside. No being one of the active playtesters but what Marc seems to envision is taking Traveller back to the LLB whereby it forms the generic universe that anyone can play in.
A good idea, save all those, like myself who demand history. But, as I indicated in the previous post, I would be in favour of giving up a certain amount of history, in favour of an expansive milieu connected but separate from canon.
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