Why?
- Thread starter MJD
- Start date
etherflyer
SOC-12
With TNE, the Traveller setting went from being one where you could travel from one end of the Imperium to the other, and beyond, one commercial tickets, to one where most people died within walking distance of where they were born. The basically optimistic setting of Classic Traveller became a dark and gloomy one. It was a big change, and many of us didn't like it.
Mike was (and hopefully still is) a good bloke. He certainly wasn't the only fan to leave the game, but he said goodbye in a nice way. he explained what he didn't like, and why he didn't like it, without accusing the writers of being incompetent because they didn't write exactly what he wanted to see.
Frankly, it <em>wasn't</em> necessary to destroy the CT setting to accomplish what Nilsen wanted. A new campaign set out on the opposite side of the Solomani Confederation would have done that, or a historical campaign set in Dark Nebula or Reavers' Deep, or during the Interstellar Wars.
I suspect that most Traveller fans agreed with Mike. Certainly GURPS Traveller resurrected the Classic setting, and T20 did as well.
PS.
Personally, I hated the TNE setting when it first came out, until I realized that it had lots of potential for gaming back in the Reformation Coalition. Unfortunately, the two published adventure sourcebooks emphasized military adventures (which don't interest me): either decapitation strikes or smash-and-grab raids. Interestingly, the RC claimed a right to pre-emptively attack anyone who might be a threat later, and also to loot resources that they needed for their plans. Seemed downright immoral at the time... The one campaign I ran involved politics -- opposition to the RC "we know how to restore civilization and if you don't agree you're an enemy" policy. (This was later hinted at in other RC materials, so I figure that it would have been developed had GDW continued.)
Oddly enough, the RC is now one of my favourite settings. Certainly <em>Hivers and Ithklur</em> is one of my favourite aliens books.
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
I wish I'd stuck around long enough for the TNE issue to have mattered much to me, but the Rebellion/Assassination (and generally incomprehensible starship construction rules) sent me off to other games for 15 years.
Nevertheless, I sympathize completely with the position of Mr. Metlay.
I found his rant to be well written and well thought out.
Yes, the TU and it's various systems went on. But Mr. Metlay was certainly not the only one to leave (as I pointed out above, I left in 1987). Even many who embraced TNE/T4 etc. eventually left (as is attested to be the largish number of dead Traveller sites out there).
However, a combination of nostalgia and general overall liking for the CT:OTU lured me back at the end of 2002. Fortunately, I was able to make my way over here and to the current TML.
Let us say, however, that I had stuck around until the release of TNE, and also been on the Internet (no computer for me at that time), and also, like Mr. Metlay, said goodbye with lots of stated reasons (and honestly, at that time, I'd have likely said something quite similar).
Then, let us say, that I was wandering around the Internet today, and found a cool site like CotI . . . and, in a flash of nostalgia, rooted through the site and found the active topics list. What is at the top? A discussion of, possibly, potentially, *me*. On that thread I am being personally ripped up for me heartfelt feelings of 11 years before. I would sagely nod that I had been right all along, and move on, and one more fan does not return to the fold (resting in the knowledge that some people, at least, do not *care*, and since it's only such a miserable little thing, a game, and not something we invest our time, our thoughts, and our lives in, then it really must not matter enough to return to), and how could it matter, after all, what would this Forum, or the TML, or all those wonderful websites be without fans who cared enough to put in the effort?
Why, I very nearly think that Traveller really would be dead at that point.
Nevertheless, I sympathize completely with the position of Mr. Metlay.
I found his rant to be well written and well thought out.
Yes, the TU and it's various systems went on. But Mr. Metlay was certainly not the only one to leave (as I pointed out above, I left in 1987). Even many who embraced TNE/T4 etc. eventually left (as is attested to be the largish number of dead Traveller sites out there).
However, a combination of nostalgia and general overall liking for the CT:OTU lured me back at the end of 2002. Fortunately, I was able to make my way over here and to the current TML.
Let us say, however, that I had stuck around until the release of TNE, and also been on the Internet (no computer for me at that time), and also, like Mr. Metlay, said goodbye with lots of stated reasons (and honestly, at that time, I'd have likely said something quite similar).
Then, let us say, that I was wandering around the Internet today, and found a cool site like CotI . . . and, in a flash of nostalgia, rooted through the site and found the active topics list. What is at the top? A discussion of, possibly, potentially, *me*. On that thread I am being personally ripped up for me heartfelt feelings of 11 years before. I would sagely nod that I had been right all along, and move on, and one more fan does not return to the fold (resting in the knowledge that some people, at least, do not *care*, and since it's only such a miserable little thing, a game, and not something we invest our time, our thoughts, and our lives in, then it really must not matter enough to return to), and how could it matter, after all, what would this Forum, or the TML, or all those wonderful websites be without fans who cared enough to put in the effort?
Why, I very nearly think that Traveller really would be dead at that point.
M
Malenfant
Guest
It's not so much the reasons that annoy me (if he doesn't like it, fair enough. Nobody's forcing him to), it's more the way it's being said.
If someone doesn't like the current version of the game, they can stick with the old one. Hell, there's enough people talking about CT and MT and TNE and T4 and any other version here (even before T20 and 1248 were in the works) and some of those have been out of print for ages.
But when people approach it as if they're authorative enough to tell authors where the game should be going and that their vision of the game is better than the authors, and that they know why the authors are doing something better than the authors do, that's when I get annoyed. Even if you spend 10 years painstakingly writing up an entire sector of space in minute detail from its first colonisation til the year 1300, that doesn't mean that anyone is obliged to listen to or accept your take on it.
It's OK to care about the game - of course most people here do. But when you "care" about the game so much that you'd let any changes to it emotionally affect you as much as it did Mike Metlay, or enough to write to authors and threaten them for what they're doing, then that should be a very clear warning bell that it's time to step away from it for a while because you're getting too emotionally involved with it. It should not be an opportunity to get on a pedestal and start trying to rally people to your cause and against the people that do actually have the right to do whatever the hell they want with the game because they're the ones being paid to write the product. At that point, I'd say you go from being a help to being a major liability, and you deserve all the vitriol that gets thrown at you by everyone else.
"Canon" is an appropriate word - for some people Traveller has become a religion. Most people are sensible enough to have limits on how much they invest in the "religion" of Traveller. But as with any real religion you get extremists who are intolerant of change or of opposing/non-canonical views (another "religious" aspect is the fragmentary, contradictory nature of the "scriptures" that form the basis of the game). Such people are, IMO, dead weight, counter-productive, and do nothing to help "spread the good word" about the game.
If someone doesn't like the current version of the game, they can stick with the old one. Hell, there's enough people talking about CT and MT and TNE and T4 and any other version here (even before T20 and 1248 were in the works) and some of those have been out of print for ages.
But when people approach it as if they're authorative enough to tell authors where the game should be going and that their vision of the game is better than the authors, and that they know why the authors are doing something better than the authors do, that's when I get annoyed. Even if you spend 10 years painstakingly writing up an entire sector of space in minute detail from its first colonisation til the year 1300, that doesn't mean that anyone is obliged to listen to or accept your take on it.
It's OK to care about the game - of course most people here do. But when you "care" about the game so much that you'd let any changes to it emotionally affect you as much as it did Mike Metlay, or enough to write to authors and threaten them for what they're doing, then that should be a very clear warning bell that it's time to step away from it for a while because you're getting too emotionally involved with it. It should not be an opportunity to get on a pedestal and start trying to rally people to your cause and against the people that do actually have the right to do whatever the hell they want with the game because they're the ones being paid to write the product. At that point, I'd say you go from being a help to being a major liability, and you deserve all the vitriol that gets thrown at you by everyone else.
"Canon" is an appropriate word - for some people Traveller has become a religion. Most people are sensible enough to have limits on how much they invest in the "religion" of Traveller. But as with any real religion you get extremists who are intolerant of change or of opposing/non-canonical views (another "religious" aspect is the fragmentary, contradictory nature of the "scriptures" that form the basis of the game). Such people are, IMO, dead weight, counter-productive, and do nothing to help "spread the good word" about the game.
etherflyer
SOC-12
You might also be interested in the GURPS Traveller material. SJG's license is explicitly for the Classic setting, and the books are generally very well done. Don't be put off by the GURPS rules -- most of the books can be used just fine with any rules system.
hunter
Ancient - Absent Friend
I think this bears repeating. Just about any of the setting material from SJG, QLI, or even the out of print stuff is quite usable no matter what version of the game you play.
The SJG source material is quite good. Sword Worlds, Behind the Claw, Rim of Fire, the upcoming Interstellar Wars, all are worth having.
Things like Starports, Far Trader, First In, the Alien books, are slightly more problematic because they are more rules-based, but are still excellent sources for any version of Traveller.
Hunter
I don't see how you qualify them as counter-productive. It's not like the choices that the company made was the "one true way" that they could have proceeded.
Indeed, I rather liked the baddies from the core idea being fostered before TNE hit much more than TNE. But TNE killed that plotline (along with others.) Does that make TNE, its authors and fans the "counter productive" ones?
hunter
Ancient - Absent Friend
As mentioned by another poster in a round-about way, we (QLI) are pretty fair about publishing material submitted by the fans. Show us what you've got!
We are QUITE interested in having more EPIC Adventures to publish. The EPIC Adventure PDFs outsell all of our other PDFs by about 2:1. They don't have to be set in the Gateway era and area either. We'll take submissions set in the Spinward Marches, Solomani Rim, or pretty much any other area or era of the game. It just has to be good!
Hunter
We are QUITE interested in having more EPIC Adventures to publish. The EPIC Adventure PDFs outsell all of our other PDFs by about 2:1. They don't have to be set in the Gateway era and area either. We'll take submissions set in the Spinward Marches, Solomani Rim, or pretty much any other area or era of the game. It just has to be good!
Hunter
Michael Taylor
SOC-13
Quote: "I would sagely nod that I had been right all along, and move on, and one more fan does not return to the fold (resting in the knowledge that some people, at least, do not *care*, and since it's only such a miserable little thing, a game, and not something we invest our time, our thoughts, and our lives in, then it really must not matter enough to return to), and how could it matter, after all, what would this Forum, or the TML, or all those wonderful websites be without fans who cared enough to put in the effort?"
I played CT until that fateful year of 1987 when MT came along. I got busy at university/life/career and never got back to Traveller until 1996 with T4. Then another break until 2002 when I found this site.
I missed out on the MT/TNE years, but today I use CT/T20. After all, it is easy to separate the setting from the rules, so using, for instance, CT in 993 setting is a piece of cake.
I too, returned to the fold, a lost soul who arrived in the nirvana of the 993 and 1248 settings, CT reprints and T20.
I played CT until that fateful year of 1987 when MT came along. I got busy at university/life/career and never got back to Traveller until 1996 with T4. Then another break until 2002 when I found this site.
I missed out on the MT/TNE years, but today I use CT/T20. After all, it is easy to separate the setting from the rules, so using, for instance, CT in 993 setting is a piece of cake.
I too, returned to the fold, a lost soul who arrived in the nirvana of the 993 and 1248 settings, CT reprints and T20.
My players look at me funny when I haul out old deckplans and suchnot for the game. But Traveller has an immense body of work, so why not use it.
As an added bonus, I understand that the GT ship books actually have (gasp) a side with a square grid on it!
The two GURPS books I use the most for Traveller are First In and Alien Races 3. (DGP had the BEST alien books AFAIAC, but never got around to puting a Hiver book out and the CT hiver book is really too thin and has too little detail).
As for First In, UWPs won't match up, but details AFTER the UWP are very well done, as well as non-UWP related details like determining when the world is first colonized, etc. (DGPs World Builder Guide is also a common reference, less accurate in some ways but meshes with UWPs better.)
M
Malenfant
Guest
Originally posted by Psion:
. I quite liked the idea of something nasty coming from the core too (this is the "Sparklers" thing, right?), but it got explained a bit in MTJ#4 and I liked what they did afterwards with TNE anyway. It was no big deal for me.
At the end of the day, the authors are the ones who decide where it goes. As fans we can either like that and follow it, or not like it and not follow it. It gets counter-productive when people claim that their opinions and viewpoints are more valid than what is in print and start telling everyone else not to follow it because of that - they're not in a position to say those things.
If you're that convinced that you understand something better than the authors do, then send in a convincing proposal and write your own book - but bear in mind that it's likely that your views will be tempered during playtest by the fans.
No, but then the whole DGP/GDW thing is a rather messy, complicated affair
At the end of the day, the authors are the ones who decide where it goes. As fans we can either like that and follow it, or not like it and not follow it. It gets counter-productive when people claim that their opinions and viewpoints are more valid than what is in print and start telling everyone else not to follow it because of that - they're not in a position to say those things.
If you're that convinced that you understand something better than the authors do, then send in a convincing proposal and write your own book - but bear in mind that it's likely that your views will be tempered during playtest by the fans.
<<<Jeez, I hated WW's Mage Revised when it came out. I really didn't like what it did to the game that I loved. But did I go round every newsgroup I could proclaiming that it was the devil's own work and the people responsible should be nailed to a wall for such an abomination?>>>
I'm sure some religious groups beat you to it. All that "magic" and all, ya know...
Scout
I'm sure some religious groups beat you to it. All that "magic" and all, ya know...
Scout
Yep, they do. The plans are a bit large (in terms of scale) and a bit large (the plans are based on the old CT plans so the volumes/areas don't work out properly). But, the plans are pretty well done (graphically/artistically) and come with sets of Cardboard Heroes.
Even though I'm currently only playing online (and therefore, using my own deckplans), I picked up almost all of the GURPS deckplans when Stiggy Baby had their 50-80% off selected GURPS sale.
Ron
PS: The plans are on sale now for 55% off at Stiggy Baby. Not quite as good of a deal as I remember, but still quite good.
Michael Taylor
SOC-13
Just to humbly ask - has anyone actually liked the EPIC 4 Merchant Cruiser Adventure? I've only seen criticism of it. Did anyone actually like the design and background of the ship?
After all, like all adventures, what's written in the EPICs is just a guideline/suggestion. If you dont like the sense motive rolls, just fudge them or dont use them. (And you may not be using T20 rules anyway).
After all, like all adventures, what's written in the EPICs is just a guideline/suggestion. If you dont like the sense motive rolls, just fudge them or dont use them. (And you may not be using T20 rules anyway).
hunter
Ancient - Absent Friend
One thing you need to realize, you will tend to hear more complaints than praise. Those who have issues with a product tend to be more vocal than those who enjoyed it.
EA4 is selling well, and there should be a review on JTAS for it shortly. When I get a copy of the review, I'll forward it on to you.
Hunter
M
Malenfant
Guest
Well, I bought it yesterday, but haven't had much of a chance to look through it yet...
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
You might also be interested in the GURPS Traveller material. SJG's license is explicitly for the Classic setting, and the books are generally very well done. Don't be put off by the GURPS rules -- most of the books can be used just fine with any rules system. </font>[/QUOTE]I find all GT milieu material to be top quality.
As I don't use GURPS, I find that all the mechanics information, from character write-ups to starships are generally useless to my purposes. It's not that any of the proposed game systems in the GT material are wrong or anything, just that they're from a game system I'm not going to use.
Especially the GT:Credit being different than the CT/MT:Credit, and I've been told that there is no conversion. GT:Credits are entirely independent of CT/MT:Credits.
Also, quite irritating, are English Measurements instead of Metric Measurements.
Finally, UWP information is completely different. In essence, the UWP, a core feature of the Traveller game system, is absent from GT:Traveller. It makes the output of GT:First In unusable for my purposes.
These three factors limit GT utility to me.
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
Mr. Taylor,
Good to have you back; whatever your tastes are, whatever your past, present, or future opinions of the game, their versions, the eras, the authors, or fans (also past, present, and future).
Good to have you back; whatever your tastes are, whatever your past, present, or future opinions of the game, their versions, the eras, the authors, or fans (also past, present, and future).
M
Malenfant
Guest
Surely it's not that hard to convert First In output to UWPs? IIRC there's a conversion table from UWP to GURPS Space format in the GT corebook, can't you use that the other way round?
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