Will the "real" Spinward Marches please stand up?

[daryen]

OK, now that MJD's efforts to update the UWP data for the Spinward Marches has been officially killed, what is the "correct" set of UWP data for the Spinward Marches?

Since no changes can be made, it is likely that a single set must be taken whole. However, each time the UWPs for the Spinward Marches has been published, subtle (and not so subtle) changes have been made.

So, which is the "real" version of the UWP listings?

 

[Foxroe]

Unfortunately, this is a tough one to answer. I'm a CT fanboy so seeing as I don't play other versions of Traveller (though I do use MT for ideas and I'll likely purchase T5), I can't speak for the other SM publications.

I selected Supplement 3, only because it's the one that I use. However, I also wanted to select the SMC because I consider it as part of CT canon. I haven't bothered to sit down and look for all of the differences between S3 and SMC, but I figure I can explain away any sociopolitical differences to the 5th Frontier War. Physical world differences are likely typos and I would default to S3 since it was the original, but that's just my opinion.

-Fox

 

[Foxroe]

I haven't bothered to sit down and look for all of the differences between S3 and SMC, but I figure I can explain away any sociopolitical differences to the 5th Frontier War. Physical world differences are likely typos and I would default to S3 since it was the original, but that's just my opinion.

Ah ha! I see that the differences are posted over at TAS. Thanks daryen!

-Fox

 

[far-trader]

I'm afraid I had to vote "other" which of course bears an explanation.

The only right answer to which published set of data is the right one is none. The fist set has errors, and all the others either compounded those, introduced new ones, and/or corrected some.

My favorite over the years? That's a tough one...

Kinorb kinda leads the pack in oddest error with it's Class A starport and TL 5 (when a Class A starport is a +6 by itself meaning the lowest possible TL should be 7, while in reality it has to be at least 9 to build Starships). Has to be some typo, maybe the Law code 9 and the TL 5 were transposed. Who knows? SMC "fixed" it by making it TL 8, which is still too low for building Starships, unless that was a reading error of a TL B. Again who knows?

No, really, I want to know who knows? And what is the right data?

 

[aramis]

Only one set of sector data is in a core rulebook... MT IE & MT PM have a set of Marches Data...

Regina Subsector appears in two core rulebooks: MT (as part of the Marches), and CT in the Traveller Book.

The Marches make another CT appearance in Deluxe Traveller, but the data isn't in the core rulebooks, but in the bundled in Adventure 0.

For me, the MT IE data is the "real" marches.

 

[hunter]

For me, the MT IE data is the "real" marches.

Well I'd agree with MT data if the new book is set in the Rebellion, but if it is set in the 5IW era, then I'd have to say Supp 3 or SMC.

 

[fredofmars]

S3 is the "Real" data for me, seeing as I gravitate towards CT. The others are interesting and useful to show how the UWPs have changed over time.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

S3, SMC and A0 are all CT...

 

[rancke]

For me, the MT IE data is the "real" marches.

That's the one that has an extra star system that doesn't appear in any other listing, right?


Hans

 

[rancke]

So, which is the "real" version of the UWP listings?

You might as well ask me if I've stopped beating my wife.


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

OK, now that MJD's efforts to update the UWP data for the Spinward Marches has been officially killed...

Daryen,

Huh? Why did that happen?

I think everyone agrees that there are "daft" worlds in the old data that need to be corrected. Of course, not everyone agrees on precisely the same list of "daft" worlds, but there must be a handful of "poster children" everyone agrees are broken.

MJD should go ahead with his update. Then MWM can review it after the work is done. Let's see what improvements we can get out of the process before making a decision.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[daryen]

Daryen,

Huh? Why did that happen?

My take is someone got into a frothing rage and got MWM to kill then entire effort without actually taking a look at what was being proposed.

Regardless of what happened, the effort is now dead. So, I want to know what the "correct" data actually is.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

I doubt anyone "got" Marc to do it - he's always resisted changes like this (even to AotI data).

 

[jfetters]

I doubt anyone "got" Marc to do it - he's always resisted changes like this (even to AotI data).

Indeed - my favorite little 'quirk' like this is 2817 Magyar in AotI - its an Imperial world, yet has non-Imperial military and Navy bases. When I suggested that it should be changed (either the world allegiance or the base types), I don't think it got anywhere.

I tend not to stress too much about those things. From a gamer/ref perspective, odd quirks like that take some creativity to solve (the Library Data is bad, dissident groups keep entering wrong data into the net to mess with world trade, etc.

 

[daryen]

I doubt anyone "got" Marc to do it - he's always resisted changes like this (even to AotI data).

That may be true. My point was that MJD never even got the chance to present the ideas.

Regardless, anyone trying to use AotI as anything but a secondary or tertiary source is wasting their time. It is so riddled with mistakes and stupidities that it isn't even worth worrying about. Use it as a data point if there is a conflict, but otherwise ignore it.

Its applicability to the Spinward Marches is, quite frankly, non-existant.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

He should've checked with Marc first.

 

[Supplement Four]

Indeed - my favorite little 'quirk' like this is 2817 Magyar in AotI - its an Imperial world, yet has non-Imperial military and Navy bases. When I suggested that it should be changed (either the world allegiance or the base types), I don't think it got anywhere.

You see, I don't think this needs to be "fixed" at all. (Again, this is just another example of why the OTU data shouldn't be changed.) This makes that one world unique, and it gives you something to ponder creatively.

Do I have a knee-jerk reaction that this is wrong? No.

What I do is sit back and wonder, "Why?"

There's a lot of history on these worlds. Hundreds of years to thousands and more. Maybe Magyar has some history similar to Hong Kong. Rightfully, Hong Kong was part of China, but for over a century it was a British Possession (until the change in 1997).

So, maybe the world of Magyar is Imperial world, but there is a continent, an island, a city, or whatnot owned by the Zho's.

Or, maybe some deal between the Zho Consulate and the and the Magyar people has been reached where the Zho's have a lease to have their bases on that world, not unlike the US's base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

See...this is so much more creative thinking than just, "Ah, that's wrong. It needs to be changed in the OTU."

 

[jfetters]

Well, I tend to see both sides on that - my kneejerk reaction was "fix it!" when I first saw it. But on further reflection, there are plenty of opportunities for creativity there, like you mention.

Same is true for some of the other examples on this thread and the other.

 

[Plankowner]

Tough choices really. I originally thought I would go with S3, but then I started thinking. If you use S3, you cannot use the higher lettered atmospheres and government types. Atmosphere is capped at C and GOV is capped at D (I think).

Also, Regina has a TL of A in S3, and TL C in all other versions. Then there is that whole missing system from S3...

I finally decided that SMC was the better choice for the 1105 era setting. I think that any other eras really need to have the social UWPs revisited before they are published. You cannot change allegiance, have an alien invasion and have NOTHING happen to ANY of the UWPs except change allegiance codes, defies logic.

But, whatever MWM picks we will have to live with, so all other versions will officially become NON CANON right?

Also, Martin was putting together his proposal for Mongoose to give to MWM when it all hit the fan. Martin never got a chance to present his side of the story. Such is fandumb...

 

[daryen]

I finally decided that SMC was the better choice for the 1105 era setting.

SMC, huh?

So that means you like the fact that the empty world of Pavanne is deleted and replace with a clone of Violante?

And what do you have against Jesedipere? What ever did it do that makes you want it removed from existance entirely?