Worlds without Roads

[Condottiere]

Or, the original colonists were all wiped out, and this is a new colonization.

However, rumours of the malicious spirits of the former colonists persist.

 

[McPerth]

On Earth, do we settle 3 million people in the fertile plains of France and enjoy the weather, but ignore the Radioactives that could be mined in the North American deserts? and the Diamonds of South Africa? and the Petrochemicals of the Middle East?

It's not a matter about if they will ignore them, but a matter about if they can exploit them. With so Little manpower base, it's unlikely that they can, more so if the ressources are so distant one another, so, even if located, those ressources are likely to be left for latter development, when the world has the capacity.

Another matter is if they need those ressources, being so (relatively) few inhabitants...

Or they can lease its explotation to outworld companies in exchange for hard currency (to be used to build/maintain the communications netweork, or outright building and maintaining it)...

 

[atpollard]

It's not a matter about if they will ignore them, but a matter about if they can exploit them. With so Little manpower base, it's unlikely that they can, more so if the ressources are so distant one another, so, even if located, those ressources are likely to be left for latter development, when the world has the capacity.

This is the Spinward Marches. The Frontier of the Third Imperium. Worlds only settled for a little over a millennium or two.

... so when is this 'later development' going to kick in?

Another matter is if they need those ressources, being so (relatively) few inhabitants...

Or they can lease its explotation to outworld companies in exchange for hard currency (to be used to build/maintain the communications netweork, or outright building and maintaining it)...

OK, so do they?
I am not asking for just Biter. Worlds with a POP of less than 9 are MOST WORLDS in Traveller. So this is a universal question about what every world that is not POP 9+ is like? In the OTU there are few (bordering on none) worlds that are 'new colonies' still being built. So they are either thinly populated worlds, or mostly unpopulated worlds.

If these resources are not being exploited, then they should not be available on the trade table when I land there.

I am asking you to take a stand and have an opinion.

Lots of things "COULD BE".
So what do you think "COMMONLY IS" in the OTU?

 

[RandyB]

Lots of things "COULD BE".
So what do you think "COMMONLY IS" in the OTU?

All of the above. Different worlds will have different solutions. No one solution will be more prevalent than any others.

 

[atpollard]

All of the above. Different worlds will have different solutions. No one solution will be more prevalent than any others.

No. There is at least one fundamental development pattern that will impact almost everything. With a small population and a large land area, the population will either:

• More often Concentrate into a small geographic area than disperse over the entire surface to exploit resources.
• More often disperse over the entire surface to exploit resources than Concentrate into a small geographic.
• Concentrate into a small geographic area 50% of the time and disperse over the entire surface to exploit resources 50% of the time.

Unless you believe the odds are 50/50, either concentration or dispersal of population will be prevalent.

My "opinion" is resource exploitation will force dispersion, which raises transportation issues when the population can not afford to build and maintain the long roads. Thus alternative vehicles will be more common on most worlds.

To say that "every world is unique" is true, but not particularly useful as a starting point for what to expect. The practical result is usually that every starport looks like an airport and every world looks like the nearest city to the players.

Do you have any opinions to inspire Refs to get beyond that default?

 

[whartung]

Resource exploitation will indeed disperse population, but odds are those dedicated communities will be little more than mining camps or company towns. Depends on how old the operation is, and of course, their connectivity to the rest of the world.

But even then most company towns basically focus on the company production plus whatever little infrastructure necessary to support the population (such as schooling, local markets, local services (like a mechanic)). But it's a given that whatever can't be done locally, would be done somewhere else.

You could model the transport infrastructure sort of like at G:FT handles the shipping lanes. As traffic passes through interconnected area, the ones that move more traffic get larger.

I approach it like this because here in the California deserts, we have a rich history, as well as the remains, of operations like this. From discovery of a resource, exploitation of it, the rise of transportation, the draw down as the resource is consumed, and finally the collapse and shut down of the infrastructure. Simply, few people stay in the desert just to stay. Most are attracted by an economic opportunity. But when that opportunity is gone, the people leave. The desert is inhospitable enough to make it difficult to transition to something else.

We still have effectively company towns around here. The companies may or may not actually own the town and it buildings, but it's the primary reason the people are there. If the company were to go, the town would pretty much up and die and become a modern ghost town.

 

[Condottiere]

You could have peaceful religious fundamentalists farming out in the boonies, with an urbanized elite planning on allowing a megacorporation access to the planet's mineral resources, with marauding biker gangs terrorizing the countryside.

 

[JimMarn]

I've read several sf books where the planet in the story didn't have roads. They built several monorails.

Want to work at the mines ? Take the monorail over to the mountains. Go to the beach ? Take the monorail ! Want to go to the next city ? Monorail. The farms are near each city. Nothing much in between.

 

[kilemall]

Stable pop at Biter? Ag planet?

One word- boredom.

The kids get bored, and dream of heading off-planet and NOT farming.

Not all motivations are about earning potential.

 

[Condottiere]

That might be a pull to the largest planetary urban centre, but it's not the same as getting a cheap junket flight to India, because none of them could like the odds of getting popsicled.

 

[aramis]

Resource exploitation will indeed disperse population, but odds are those dedicated communities will be little more than mining camps or company towns. Depends on how old the operation is, and of course, their connectivity to the rest of the world.

You should take a look at the settlement history of Alaska... most of the "company towns" grew from native villages... because the villages were already at the best shelter, food and water locations in the region.

The exception being Sitka - which was a fine harbour - and Anchorage, which started as a railroad camp because of good soil and a good anchorage point in close proximity. (The original port location is still the port. Adjacent to the rail yards.)

The mineral extraction sites are actually quite close to reasonable village sites, and so the nearby village turned into the mining town.

This may be indicative of a different approach to natives by the Russians...

 

[McPerth]

This is the Spinward Marches. The Frontier of the Third Imperium. Worlds only settled for a little over a millennium or two.

... so when is this 'later development' going to kick in?

When manpower allows (and probably requires) their explotation.

OK, so do they?
I am not asking for just Biter. Worlds with a POP of less than 9 are MOST WORLDS in Traveller. So this is a universal question about what every world that is not POP 9+ is like? In the OTU there are few (bordering on none) worlds that are 'new colonies' still being built. So they are either thinly populated worlds, or mostly unpopulated worlds.

If these resources are not being exploited, then they should not be available on the trade table when I land there.

I am asking you to take a stand and have an opinion.

Lots of things "COULD BE".
So what do you think "COMMONLY IS" in the OTU?

OK, my guidelines (YMMV):

As those worlds cannot afford much in form of roads, they don't have extensive roads (incluiding any form or railroad) networks. There may be a single long line or two (again like the transsiberian), but little more in long range.

At low TLs (undersood here as not able to maintain grav traffic) this will mean clustered population, near an ocean if there is any, and most traffic among clusters will be naval (and air if TL allows it). If there is no oceans, population will cluster near lakes, and there will be little interconection among them (a few caravan paths, as the silk road was, using ATVs if TL allows)

At high TLs (understood here as able to maintain grav traffic) population can disperse more, as grav vehicles do not need roads, and ressources are exploited as manpower allows. Bulk traffic may still go by ship, though (mostly at the lower TL edge of gravitics) as it may be cheaper.

 

[whartung]

As those worlds cannot afford much in form of roads, they don't have extensive roads (incluiding any form or railroad) networks.

I just take umbrage with this, and it's mostly just the wording.

I pretty much agree with the rest of your post.

But it just makes it sound as if these poor rock farmers just can't make roads (or whatever), and that's just not the case.

For a developing world, there will be as many paths as necessary. If there is an opportunity to be exploited, it will need a road to make that possible. If the opportunity isn't worth building a road to, they won't do it, and the opportunity will lay idle (perhaps as a lightly explored claim or whatever) until it is worth it.

Here's another example.

There is (was) a town in eastern California called Bevridge. Getting there today is difficult and arduous. The trail is very hard, and very badly maintained, and can be difficult to follow. The terrain and climate is terrible. There is no "road". A road was simply not feasible.

But it was a mining town, and the ore was worth digging out.

Instead of a road, they built a gondola system, and used that to efficiently move things up and down the canyon that it sits at the head of.

Today, that system is gone, so it's back to on foot on steep trails in the desert sun, making it most certainly a path less traveled.

There may well be many other mining claims and such out in those mountains that we do not know about simply because the difficulty of extracting those resources makes it impractical to pull them out.

So, a developing world will have as many roads as it needs. Leveraging local resources is always cheaper, but if an opportunity exists that worth pursuing, someone will cut a path there of some kind to exploit it. Just part of the start up cost.

 

[GypsyComet]

My "opinion" is resource exploitation will force dispersion, which raises transportation issues when the population can not afford to build and maintain the long roads. Thus alternative vehicles will be more common on most worlds.

This thesis statement took way too much effort to extract.

To say that "every world is unique" is true, but not particularly useful as a starting point for what to expect. The practical result is usually that every starport looks like an airport and every world looks like the nearest city to the players.

On the contrary. Recognizing that "unique" solutions are the norm is an important part of meeting your next question...

Do you have any opinions to inspire Refs to get beyond that default?

That everyone can understand, or just City Planners and Public Works Engineers?

Would you prefer an attempt to boil a four-year Geography degree into a few pages, or a set of random tables?

Keep in mind that many of the variables that might affect the final picture are things the UWP doesn't touch, even in its T5 incarnation.

 

[atpollard]

This thesis statement took way too much effort to extract.

The value is in the Journey, not the destination.
The Thesis statement is irrelevant.

Actually, I had already done the road calculations on the OP to determine whether the IMTU Biter should have wheeled or tracked trucks. Then I was bored and decided to post it to a topic. The goal of the topic was not to reach a conclusion, but to challenge crative people to talk about "what if there were no roads" and see what sort of ideas other people came up with.

On the contrary. Recognizing that "unique" solutions are the norm is an important part of meeting your next question...

That everyone can understand, or just City Planners and Public Works Engineers?

Would you prefer an attempt to boil a four-year Geography degree into a few pages, or a set of random tables?

Keep in mind that many of the variables that might affect the final picture are things the UWP doesn't touch, even in its T5 incarnation.

What I want is to land in a Starport that feels nothing like an airport, and step out into a world that feels nothing like Tampa, Florida or greater suburbia.

Anything you have to offer that get's me from Exit Visa to 'not an Airport/City/Suburb' would be welcome. If you have some data that suggests it might make sense, all the better.

 

[GypsyComet]

my understanding is that all vehicles in russia are required to have dash cams. so, every time there's an accident the whole world gets to see it. meanwhile most accidents in most other countries are unrecorded and thus not observed. thus russia's accident rate is disproportionately represented.

I see I was too obtuse. Russia underwent rapid industrialization but didn't get the infrastructure upgrades that industrialization needed. The roads you see in those dash cams are always narrower than the observed traffic levels would call for. Central barriers or simple separation are practically unknown, and safety has been foisted off on the vehicles instead of undertaking road improvements. Russia's road system is exactly the case ATPollard described in his opening posts. In Traveller terms, I would argue, Russia's in-place transportation infrastructure is a TL behind.

In short (American) terms, they got their Ford, but never got their Eisenhower.

 

[Condottiere]

I believe someone got recently convicted in Russia for stealing a road, and reselling the components.

 

[GypsyComet]

The Thesis statement is irrelevant.

I disagree, but I'm going to move on.

What I want is to land in a Starport that feels nothing like an airport, and step out into a world that feels nothing like Tampa, Florida or greater suburbia.

Anything you have to offer that get's me from Exit Visa to 'not an Airport/City/Suburb' would be welcome. If you have some data that suggests it might make sense, all the better.

While I probably haven't flown out of what would qualify as an "E" class port, I have been to a few C/Ds (nearly all airports have fuel...), and a B or two (company "home" airports) and seen a few likely E ports on TV (National Geographic's "Life Below Zero" has one that is fertile Traveller fodder).

The airport model is a tough one to escape, especially if one knows much about the variety found in airports. It is simpler to get away from the major international airport feel. Simply dropping Customs and massive passenger security processes changes a port profoundly. Cargo hubs are different than passenger hubs. International ports differ from Municipal ports, which differ again from small town fields and again from many of the back country strips used solely by crop dusters.

I use crop duster strips frequently as inspiration for D/E ports on low pop/law worlds. The local Portmaster is also the world's Knight. He raises sheep just over the fence and keeps a fast grav boat out behind the port office. The nice road goes out to the edge of Imperial land and stops, assuming the locals use roads. The fence is mostly to keep the sheep off the field when they aren't mowing it...

The need for a good extrality fence is strongly influenced by local Law Level. If the locals don't need Customs controls, *there won't be any*. The Portmaster in a tiny port like the above may want to check ID as you leave the port, but that may be so he can identify your body later...

As for Startowns, I'm strongly influenced by Andre Norton, but they could just as easily look like a larger city's industrial zone, dedicated solely to shipping, warehousing, and receiving with only a sandwich shop or bar every two blocks to serve the employees.

As a side note, Tampa, Florida is a Pop 5 all by itself. The differences between that and the dinky Pop 3 town with the crop duster's airstrip near here are enormous.

 

[Timerover51]

While I probably haven't flown out of what would qualify as an "E" class port, I have been to a few C/Ds (nearly all airports have fuel...), and a B or two (company "home" airports) and seen a few likely E ports on TV (National Geographic's "Life Below Zero" has one that is fertile Traveller fodder).

The airport model is a tough one to escape, especially if one knows much about the variety found in airports. It is simpler to get away from the major international airport feel. Simply dropping Customs and massive passenger security processes changes a port profoundly. Cargo hubs are different than passenger hubs. International ports differ from Municipal ports, which differ again from small town fields and again from many of the back country strips used solely by crop dusters.

I use crop duster strips frequently as inspiration for D/E ports on low pop/law worlds. The local Portmaster is also the world's Knight. He raises sheep just over the fence and keeps a fast grav boat out behind the port office. The nice road goes out to the edge of Imperial land and stops, assuming the locals use roads. The fence is mostly to keep the sheep off the field when they aren't mowing it...

The need for a good extrality fence is strongly influenced by local Law Level. If the locals don't need Customs controls, *there won't be any*. The Portmaster in a tiny port like the above may want to check ID as you leave the port, but that may be so he can identify your body later...

As for Startowns, I'm strongly influenced by Andre Norton, but they could just as easily look like a larger city's industrial zone, dedicated solely to shipping, warehousing, and receiving with only a sandwich shop or bar every two blocks to serve the employees.

As a side note, Tampa, Florida is a Pop 5 all by itself. The differences between that and the dinky Pop 3 town with the crop duster's airstrip near here are enormous.

I think that the air strip at Gizo would qualify as an "E" class starport. For one, it is on a coral island in the harbor (being very generous here), and you get to and from it by motor launch. It is grass-covered, with trees on both sides of the grass strip. For refueling, that is done with hand pumps attached to 55 gallon drums of turbo-prop fuel, maybe JP-4, but I did not inquire into details. No landing lights at all, so no night landings or takeoffs. Just an open grass strip.

As for Star Towns, for Class A ports, the area around O'Hare in Chicago would be reasonable. Class B, maybe the area around Mitchell in Milwaukee, but if you need a seedier area, then the area around Midway in Chicago. Some hotels and car rental agencies, but also lot of bars and fast food restaurants, and also abandoned buildings, some warehouses, and assorted other signs of urban decay. The roads could use a LOT of maintenance.

I am not sure how much of a Startown you would have outside of a Class D starport. At Honiara on Guadalcanal, there is a one-story terminal building, basically of pre-fab metal construction, that has a couple of freight holding areas attached, then a sort of road running into town. I say "sort of" as it appeared at one time to have been paved with asphalt, and now was a mix of broken asphalt and mud potholes.

 

[epicenter00]

So what do you think "COMMONLY IS" in the OTU?

There's no roads, airplanes, trains, or ships. It's all grav. Using roads for hauling is as obsolete as using 1800s tall ships for hauling or copper-line telephone networks for phone service in our world. Discussing the economics of roads in the OTU would be like showing up at an urban housing development planning meeting in the 21st century Western world and shouting about "But where will stable the carriage horses?"

Low local TL means that they can't maintain the high TL components and depend upon interstellar trade to bring in the required spare parts. High volumes of trade means that these spare parts are not as expensive as you might think; it's good enough to keep these worlds going. The more dependent a world is on off-world imports, the lower TL the world is. Grav may be expensive as listed in the sourcebooks, but Vilani thinking towards devices means they're intended to last - a good utility grav vehicle with reasonable maintenance will last you your entire lifetime and probably your children's lifetime and their grandchildren's with an low to affordable rate of maintenance costs; many people buy used grav utility vehicles.

Locals might use airplanes, boats, or off-road vehicles for relatively light duty (like hunting, foraging, or just visiting the next village over) but nobody uses them "industrially" for scheduled hauling or anything like that; so dirt roads or paths are fine.