X-Boat Stations

[rancke]

Even 2 is 3 links in web vs 2.

Not if two of the three links are daily or twice daily or four times a day and the extra link is once a week. Do the math.

And, given a median range between significant worlds of 3Pc, a J5-J6 web is going to have an average of 18 worlds.

Average of 18 worlds out of what?

At 4 Pc distance, it still is running about 10-12 worlds. DO THE MATH.

I'd rather have a look at an actual example. Unfortunately, the canonical X-boat network is excessively inefficient. Many of the worlds in the network that is within four parsecs of each other but nevertheless not connected, such as Strouden to Carey and Carey to Mora OUGHT to be connected in the first place, so it's difficult to find good examples.

It gets real ugly really quick.

So you say, but I don't see it.

A hub and spoke does mean the occasional world makes 4 hops instead of 2... but it's the most cost effective distribution for governance, and for dissemination of central information, provided the arms of the primary level run to major points of importance, and then the spur hubs come off of those.

What does "4 hops instead of 2" mean?


Hans

 

[tjoneslo]

Why? X-boat routes are not tracks laid in jumpspace. They are just X-boat stations witin four (or six) parsecs of each other and the expressed intention to send an X-boat from one to the other at certain intervals.

And the lines on the map show where regularly scheduled routes run.

Do you have a set of rules/guidelines for how often the boats run between various points? Or is it, as you explain in the note, political (hence GM) fiat?

As a guess there would be a choice of 1 per week, 2 per week, 1 per day, 2 per day, and 4 per day.

Let's take the region between Regina and Efate as an example. You want to connect Regina to Efate, Roup, and Feri. So you connect Regina to Roup (average four boats per day), Roup to Efate (average four boats per day), and Roup to Feri (average one boat per week). And then the multi-millionaires on Efate puts political pressure on and get a link from Efate to Feri (average one boat per day) and between Feri and Kinorb (average one boat per day). And then the multi-millionaires on Regina puts on a bit of political pressure of their own and get the link from Roup to Feri upgraded to a boat per day.

This is what I'm talking about. The route that goes Regina->Roup->Feri->Kinorb. This takes three weeks, plus layover time (average 1/2 week for the Roup->Feri layover).

If I'm a Regina Plutocrat, I'd push for a Regina->Feri J5 boat over upgrading the Roup->Feri route. Even once a week for the J5 boat, I get the messages to Kinorb a week faster.

The thing to remember is that for all practical purposes all X-boat stations within four parsecs of each other are linked to each other, unless you think that TPTB feel that the few extra X-boats that would take is too great an expense.

The question isn't how to get from A to B, but how to get a message from A to D, with potential intermediate points of B, C, X, and Y.

 

[rancke]

And the lines on the map show where regularly scheduled routes run.

But does each link shown represent one jump? Does it really take three jumps to get information from Roup to Efate (Roup --> Feri --> Boughene --> Efate)? That makes no sense at all when a link from Roup to Efate would cut two weeks off the communication time.

Do you have a set of rules/guidelines for how often the boats run between various points? Or is it, as you explain in the note, political (hence GM) fiat?

No guidelines. All I know is that there's a canon mention of every six hours somewhere.

Ever since I decided that the X-boats must have been redundant for four centuries, official hype to the contrary notwithstanding, I've largely ceased to work on the details of the setup.

As a guess there would be a choice of 1 per week, 2 per week, 1 per day, 2 per day, and 4 per day.

Add 3 per week and you have six entries to a D6 tabel.

This is what I'm talking about. The route that goes Regina->Roup->Feri->Kinorb. This takes three weeks, plus layover time (average 1/2 week for the Roup->Feri layover).

If I'm a Regina Plutocrat, I'd push for a Regina->Feri J5 boat over upgrading the Roup->Feri route. Even once a week for the J5 boat, I get the messages to Kinorb a week faster.

Or you could try to get a J6 link to Efate and a J5 link from Efate to Kinorb, something the Efate plutocrats would support.

And that's why automation is tricky. In most situations you will have several alternatives. You need to calculate their respective costs and weigh them against their respective political values and then throw some dice to decide which one was chosen (You can't automatically assume that the one with the best value/cost ratio will be the one chosen, since log-rolling may be involved).


Hans

 

[tjoneslo]

Or you could try to get a J6 link to Efate and a J5 link from Efate to Kinorb, something the Efate plutocrats would support.

But, as you point out, the routes are not railroad tracks in the stars. The difference between Regina->Roup->Efate J4 route and Regina->Efate J6 route is the assignment of ships to the Regina way station.

So the routes drawn on the map represent the (current) state of the resource allocation. There is no line drawn between Regina->Efate because there are no resources allocated to running the communication route in that direction.

 

[rancke]

But, as you point out, the routes are not railroad tracks in the stars. The difference between Regina->Roup->Efate J4 route and Regina->Efate J6 route is the assignment of ships to the Regina way station.

We shall have to be careful to distinguish between a state of affairs where there are no J5 or J6 X-boats and one where such ships, while constrained by budgetary concerns, are possible, given the political will.

So the routes drawn on the map represent the (current) state of the resource allocation. There is no line drawn between Regina->Efate because there are no resources allocated to running the communication route in that direction.

What do you mean there are no resources allocated? There are enough resources allocated to form a comunication route of no less than four links between Regina and Efate. And all you really need is enough resources to form a two link route. But there is no line drawn between Roup and Efate, which is extremely strange.

Efate has to be the location for an X-boat station, not only in its own right, but because it's the most direct route to Jewell¹. And Jewell, being a subsector capital, is a primary destination. And that means a two link route from Regina to Efate, because that's as fast as you can get if limited to jump-4. And of the possible intermediate worlds, Roup is by far the most important, so Regina to Roup makes perfect sense. But Roup to Feri to Boughene to Efate does not make any sort of sense at all².

¹ Since Grant was interdicted, that is.
² Unless the X-boats are redundant and efficiency is not a factor at all. Even then you'd think they could spare a few X-boats to link Roup to Efate at least once a week.​

Hans

 

[tjoneslo]

Unless the X-boats are redundant and efficiency is not a factor at all. Even then you'd think they could spare a few X-boats to link Roup to Efate at least once a week.

The challenge I have is you are arguing both things must be true at the same time.

I think I've finally figured out how this system works. There are two x-boat systems in place. There is the primary one, consisting of Capital, the sector capitals, and the subsector capitals. These are connected by routes (i.e. railroad tracks) with intermediate jump stations selected for their efficiency in keeping the routes as short as possible. These are staffed by J6 xboats, and run on a regular, frequent, schedule.

The second one is the local routing system. Each of the jump stations in the above route also serves as a local hub for any important worlds in the J3/J4 vicinity. The jump station is now assigned some additional J6/J4 xboats to run a less regular schedule to these un-routed worlds. The secondary jump stations are position, and trips between then are based upon political pressure, bribes, economic influence, random dice rolls, etc.

In our ongoing example, there is a primary jump station at Efate and Regina, with regularly scheduled route between the two. The are secondary jump station at Feri and Roup, and general traffic J4 traffic between the four worlds based upon local needs.

Now what happens when a important world isn't within J4 of one of the primary jump stations. For example, Kinorb. This becomes a routing problem, in how to connect this distant world to the primary jump system. In this case, there are two solutions. One is routing through Feri, then on to Efate or (if there is sufficient political pressure) sending one J6 xboat directly from Efate to Kinorb.

This still leaves two problems. First is how is it determined that Kinorb, Roup, and Feri should rate a jump station? Second, how should that be marked in the data?

 

[rancke]

The challenge I have is you are arguing both things must be true at the same time.

No, but I think we are mixing up several different system.

1) There's the canonical J4 X-boat system as it is shown on the canonical maps.

2) There's the system that OUGHT to be in place if the J4 X-boat system was organized for even reasonable efficiency.

3) There's the J6 X-boat system that OUGHT to be in place if the X-boats were actually the primary means of communication used by the Imperial administration.

Note that I take the fact that System 3 is not in place as evidence that the system that is in place is not the primary means of communication used by the Imperial administration.

4) And then there's the scheme I suggested earlier for how Strephon might go about changing System 1 to System 3.

I think I've finally figured out how this system works. There are two x-boat systems in place. There is the primary one, consisting of Capital, the sector capitals, and the subsector capitals. These are connected by routes (i.e. railroad tracks) with intermediate jump stations selected for their efficiency in keeping the routes as short as possible. These are staffed by J6 xboats, and run on a regular, frequent, schedule.

This would be either System 3 or System 4.

I snipped the next three paragraphs for the sake of brevity, but I agree with everything you said.

This still leaves two problems. First is how is it determined that Kinorb, Roup, and Feri should rate a jump station? Second, how should that be marked in the data?

My take is that Roup deserves a connection in its own right because it has a population of three billion and Feri deserves one in its own right because it has a population of 600 million. Kinorb, with 6 million inhabitants, does not deserve a connection on that account, but we have canonical evidence that it does get a connection for its own sake (it's a terminal). So I thought up a reason why. But I wouldn't have thought it up if canon hadn't shown the connection in the first place.

As for how to determine if a world is important enough to rate an X-boat connection, you may use the new importance rating from T5. Or population size, possibly cross-referenced with starport type. Or GWP. Whatever you choose, I can almost guarantee you that you won't hit every canonical X-boated world.

How to mark it in the data? how about a code that means 'X-boat station present'?


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

A dreadnought squadron is about GCr1000

The J4 X-boat is MCr70. It requires tenders costing MCr274
The J6 Fleet Courier (CF) is MCr255
A Kokirrak DN is GCr120.

A 30 link Xboat service with daily service is at least 16 ships per link, probably 18, plus at least 33 tenders (3 to cover for the other 30 during annual maintenance, as it's going to mean time off service - 3 weeks, minimum, if not in an A-Port). So 480*MCr70=GCr33.6, and 33xMCr274=GCr9. So, about GCr 42 for a daily X-boat run in a sector.

Covering the same sector with J6 in place of most J3 links on the will reduce it to about 20 links... and need still the same 16 per link minimum for daily service so about 320 ships at MCr255, or GCr81.

It's well more than a "drop in the bucket."

Adding the spoke service to the other 300 worlds, even if only weekly, still requires 4 ships per link - coming off the x-boat hubs, you're looking at at least 2400 ships, and assuming Type S's as is canon, GCr42 or so additional.

It's about the same cost as a dreadnought to field a J6 network and a supporting J2 network.

Now, add adding additional links for those couriers, in standard density, and the average world goes from 1 to at least 4 links; it's liable to be 6, but we'll halve it to account for them sharing the load... so 3 unique links per system... so now the scout courier net at weekly departures is as much as a dreadnought.

Perhaps I should have been more detailed.

The Imperium is said to have a naval fleet comprising some 20,000 ships - "cruisers, carriers, battleships, and some escorts," averaging about a thousand such ships per sector. You are debating costs that, per sector, amount to the cost of one or two of those ships.

Small potatoes.

If we allow that ships are lasting about 40-50 years, as they seem to in AHL, then replacing the entire xboat network in a single year is still no more than 5% to 10% of the annual cost of buying new ships for the Navy. And, of course, there's no reason they need to do the whole shebang in a single year.

Politics is politics. Someone somewhere might be squeezing the Scouts to cut costs to the bare minimum needed, while generously endowing the Admirals of the Fleet with the funds for yet another new class of dreadnought. It would not be the first time in history that a government agency trying to do something useful got nickel-and-dimed to perdition for its efforts while military spending took the lion's share. However, it is in fact - small potatoes.

 

[tjoneslo]

No, but I think we are mixing up several different system.

1) There's the canonical J4 X-boat system as it is shown on the canonical maps.

2) There's the system that OUGHT to be in place if the J4 X-boat system was organized for even reasonable efficiency.

I have a outstanding request from Don and Marc to propose a set of Xboat links that meets this criteria.

3) There's the J6 X-boat system that OUGHT to be in place if the X-boats were actually the primary means of communication used by the Imperial administration.

Note that I take the fact that System 3 is not in place as evidence that the system that is in place is not the primary means of communication used by the Imperial administration.

4) And then there's the scheme I suggested earlier for how Strephon might go about changing System 1 to System 3.

This would be either System 3 or System 4.

I'm trying to get as close as possible to system 4 (your proposal), assuming it also meets the criteria for system 3.

I snipped the next three paragraphs for the sake of brevity, but I agree with everything you said.

This was mostly me making sure I have an understandable system in place. If I can't describe it to someone else, I don't understand it myself.

My take is that Roup deserves a connection in its own right because it has a population of three billion and Feri deserves one in its own right because it has a population of 600 million. Kinorb, with 6 million inhabitants, does not deserve a connection on that account, but we have canonical evidence that it does get a connection for its own sake (it's a terminal). So I thought up a reason why. But I wouldn't have thought it up if canon hadn't shown the connection in the first place.

As for how to determine if a world is important enough to rate an X-boat connection, you may use the new importance rating from T5. Or population size, possibly cross-referenced with starport type. Or GWP. Whatever you choose, I can almost guarantee you that you won't hit every canonical X-boated world.

My problem is that neither Roup nor Feri have any combination of Importance, population, starport, or GWP to distinguish them from the literally thousands of other similar worlds.

The current implementation of the xroute has 942 jump stations. That includes the capitals, the importance 4 and 5 worlds, the links between them. Altering the criteria to include Feri and Roup would add between 1,000 and 2,000 worlds to that list. Based upon previous attempts to draw xboat routes, this would push the system from sparse but efficient into an overloaded mess of short, crossing routes.

How to mark it in the data? how about a code that means 'X-boat station present'?

A Base Code of J works for me.

 

[inexorabletash]

A Base Code of J works for me.

Classically, 'Xb' was used in remarks in some data files.

With the latest T5 simplification of base codes it becomes practical to use 'X':

http://travellermap.com/doc/secondsurvey#bases

The current meaning of 'X' is for a Zhodani relay station, but having allegiance-specific codes has been retired; 'D' is now used for Depot, Imperial or otherwise. (Only Imperial Naval/Scout bases get special codes, because these may exist in non-Imperial systems.)

We could therefore imagine 'X' as a code used for allegiance-specific com network stops.

(Of course, there's the problem of polities routing com networks beyond their borders, but now we have CsIm and CsZh allegiances for client states, at least.)

 

[tjoneslo]

Maps are here.

I've updated the J6 route maps with the various tweaks, suggestions, and random pokings. This is closer to the final version of what Hans suggested, but still lacking in a few details.

I've also posted a "stations.txt" file which contains the list of worlds which would contain the x-boat stations for making this route to work. The list contains 1119 worlds.

I have found, on reviewing the maps, a small number of changes per sector to make things more sane. Mostly this is merging a few, close and therefor redundant stations, and perhaps moving one or two stations. I would estimate between 30 and 50 changes overall.

I'm going to do a J4 version of this same process, probably this evening. I'll post the maps here when its done.

As usual, feedback is always appreciated.

 

[Vladika]

Maps are here.

I've updated the J6 route maps with the various tweaks, suggestions, and random pokings. This is closer to the final version of what Hans suggested, but still lacking in a few details.

I've also posted a "stations.txt" file which contains the list of worlds which would contain the x-boat stations for making this route to work. The list contains 1119 worlds.

I have found, on reviewing the maps, a small number of changes per sector to make things more sane. Mostly this is merging a few, close and therefor redundant stations, and perhaps moving one or two stations. I would estimate between 30 and 50 changes overall.

I'm going to do a J4 version of this same process, probably this evening. I'll post the maps here when its done.

As usual, feedback is always appreciated.

One thing right off the bat:

Why not a direct route from REGINA to EFATE to JEWELL? Otherwise it's two jumps (two weeks) longer. JEWELL is "front line" with the Zho's and I think that route would enjoy a serious priority.

 

[rancke]

One thing right off the bat:

Why not a direct route from REGINA to EFATE to JEWELL? Otherwise it's two jumps (two weeks) longer. JEWELL is "front line" with the Zho's and I think that route would enjoy a serious priority.

Or if there's a limited number of J6 links possible for budgetary reasons, have one J6 link from Regina to Lysen and keep the two link route from Regina to Efate (via Roup, not Knorbes).


Hams

 

[Vladika]

Or if there's a limited number of J6 links possible for budgetary reasons, have one J6 link from Regina to Lysen and keep the two link route from Regina to Efate (via Roup, not Knorbes).
Hams

Roup is far more important than Knorbes and should at least be linked.

The Lysen route I would use as an alternative in case Efate fell to an enemy. Otherwise, Efate is also extremely strategically important. News from Efate to Regina could be particularly crucial, if timely.

I see the use of the J5-6 ships more in terms of their military significance.

 

[tjoneslo]

One thing right off the bat:

Why not a direct route from REGINA to EFATE to JEWELL? Otherwise it's two jumps (two weeks) longer. JEWELL is "front line" with the Zho's and I think that route would enjoy a serious priority.

It's the rules used for linking the "secondary" worlds to the primary routes. These are all (theoretically) limited to J4. Probably for reasons of economics, though those links are the minority of the overall system.

Hans implied several times Jewell should be the subsector capital. If that is changed in the data, it automatically gets a J6 route to Regina, probably via Efate.

This is the limitation of the current system, it's only as good as the data input into it.

 

[Vladika]

It's the rules used for linking the "secondary" worlds to the primary routes. These are all (theoretically) limited to J4. Probably for reasons of economics, though those links are the minority of the overall system.

Hans implied several times Jewell should be the subsector capital. If that is changed in the data, it automatically gets a J6 route to Regina, probably via Efate.

This is the limitation of the current system, it's only as good as the data input into it.

Thanks for the "heads up". I'm sure no program can get it just right. I think that the xboat network should account for primarily military communications, OR add the oft talked about J6 naval couriers to certain fixed runs. These should take advantage of backwater planets for wilderness or gas giant refueling too assure the fastest communication possible. (Assuming we leave certain deep space points out of the running.)

I would link Depots, Capitals, High TL/high population worlds, principle shipbuilding systems as well as certain Imperial research stations. Also, with the Darrians as allies, they need to be linked, probably through a LUNION and MORA connection.

 

[tjoneslo]

I would link Depots, Capitals, High TL/high population worlds, principle shipbuilding systems as well as certain Imperial research stations. Also, with the Darrians as allies, they need to be linked, probably through a LUNION and MORA connection.

I've tried building routes using a similar set of criteria. Depots, the Scout way stations, the various sector and subsector capitals as end points, and use the High TL/high pop worlds in preference for the routing. I wasn't as happy with the results. I'm much happier with the outcome of these rules as they have better (but not perfect) coverage of the Imperium.

The other advice I have is you don't want too many x-boat/jump stations, either in close proximity or overall. If things are too crowed, because the politics of who ranks as Important, the system becomes inefficient, and a complete mess.

(Assuming we leave certain deep space points out of the running.)

You can't send ships to places that are not on the map.

 

[BlackBat242]

Unless the OS is a cover for the much older organization to use that building shape - The Octagon.

http://foreven.com/libdat/libdat/o/OctagonSociety.htm

I had forgotten this earlier discussion, which proposed a different origin for the Octagon Society: http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=21766&highlight=octagon