Naval Infantry

[mike wightman]

I agree with Hans - certain careers should have no weapon skill defaults, especially purely civilian careers.

It would make a lot of sense to retcon the removal of melee weapon skill defaults from these civilian careers, with the possible exception of brawling perhaps.

 

[Barsanuphius]

Thank you Hans.

I must admit. I read many of your posts. I have a friend whom you remind me of. I appreciate your value and input. As I do his.

Joseph

 

[Blue Ghost]

Rancke2; I think the blade combat thing falls into the category of "use your common sense".

 

[Jame]

Citizens of the Imperium provides character generation for 12 different careers. Doctor is one of them; Scientist is a different and distinct career. Both careers are civilians. According to the rules, all doctors receive a skill level of 0 (enough to avoid the unskilled penalty) in Dagger, Blade, Foil, Sword, Cutlass, Broadsword, Bayonet, Spear, Halberd, Pike, and Cudgel, but no expertise in with any guns. All scientists get a skill of 0 in all the aforementioned blades and polearms plus Body Pistol, Auto Pistol, Revolver, Carbine, Rifle, Auto Rifle, Shotgun, Laser Carbine, and Laser Rifle.

In my opinion it is ridiculous to use those rules to prove that all doctors and scientists in Charted Space (or just in the Imperium) are familiar with all those blades and polearms and that all scientists also get familiarity with all those guns.

Hans

I would retcon it so bureaucrats, doctors and scientists get level-0 in Brawl, Dagger, Club/Cudgel and Pistols but nothing else (well, maybe shotgun). I.E. any weapon a civilian of TL 8+ would regularly have access to.

 

[mike wightman]

Weapon access for civilians depends a lot on the law level of the culture. Here in the UK very few civilians have any real knowledge of how to fire handguns, shotguns and rifles.

Ask them to reload, clear a jam or strip a weapon down and that's way beyond what they've seen in action films.

 

[Dragoner]

I think it is a mistake to apply chargen to anything other than characters, over all of charted space and beyond, there are too many variables.

 

[aramis]

I agree with Hans - certain careers should have no weapon skill defaults, especially purely civilian careers.

It would make a lot of sense to retcon the removal of melee weapon skill defaults from these civilian careers, with the possible exception of brawling perhaps.

I, too, agree that it shouldn't be all, especially not all weapons. All guns, well, in a society with as much glory of guns as the US, most people should be able to get the right end downrange and have a reasonable chance of hit.

It's not written that way, tho.

 

[rancke]

Rancke2; I think the blade combat thing falls into the category of "use your common sense".

I agree completely, and I try to base all my arguments on just that principle.

I, too, agree that it shouldn't be all, especially not all weapons. All guns, well, in a society with as much glory of guns as the US, most people should be able to get the right end downrange and have a reasonable chance of hit.

It's not written that way, tho.

Which is the point. When the rules simplify complex situations for the sake of playability, it's perfectly reasonable to ignore the complexities and get on with having fun playing. But to go from there to assuming that the situation is, in fact, as simple as the rules claim it is, is to ruin the verisimilitude of the setting. It's even worse to assume that a game rule is a complete and accurate reflection of the setting when doing so results in selfcontradictions or plain absurdities. The rule itself may very well work perfectly for gaming purposes. But to drew conclusions from such a rule is to base one's conclusions on faulty assumptions, and we all know what that leads to. GIGO.


Hans

 

[aramis]

I agree completely, and I try to base all my arguments on just that principle.



Which is the point. When the rules simplify complex situations for the sake of playability, it's perfectly reasonable to ignore the complexities and get on with having fun playing. But to go from there to assuming that the situation is, in fact, as simple as the rules claim it is, is to ruin the verisimilitude of the setting. It's even worse to assume that a game rule is a complete and accurate reflection of the setting when doing so results in selfcontradictions or plain absurdities. The rule itself may very well work perfectly for gaming purposes. But to drew conclusions from such a rule is to base one's conclusions on faulty assumptions, and we all know what that leads to. GIGO.


Hans

Or, it leads one to a realization that the 3I isn't the late 20th C US (and it's clearly NEVER been Modern Europe) in space.

If most everyone has significant exposure to guns and blades, then there's something much more akin to, say Revolutionary War or Civil War US or late Tokugawa shogunate Japan than to modern civilization.

 

[rancke]

Or, it leads one to a realization that the 3I isn't the late 20th C US (and it's clearly NEVER been Modern Europe) in space.

Not unless you're willing to swallow the notion that the 3rd Imperium is one monolitic culture where EVERYONE trains with blades, polearms, and guns.

Me, I think that the culture of the 3rd Imperium is at best a thin veneer spread over 11,000 worlds with many thousands of different planetary cultures. And that even the Imperial culture has enough diversity to give the lie to any supposedly universal truth embodied in any of the generic character generation systems.

everyone has significant exposure to guns and blades, then there's something much more akin to, say Revolutionary War or Civil War US or late Tokugawa shogunate Japan than to modern civilization.

I don't believe that everyone would have significant exposure to guns and blades (and especially not polearms!) and I don't believe that everyone who were exposed to guns and blades would want to or have the ability to learn from such exposure.

And let me add that even if it was concievable that the cultures of the Imperium were universal enough to be covered by the character generation systems, it would be a sad, sad setting that embodied such a universal sameness.


Hans

 

[Blue Ghost]

Ah, but Rancke2, this is the magic of the Imperium, because it was designed to be a sort of generic setting where you could cobble or clash together a variety of cultural and technological sets. You're right in that the Imperium is merely a glue to hold together the various worlds spread over the vastness of totality of the 3rd Imperium.

I think if an individual were to try to enlist into the Imperial Navy, then the navy, being the Imperial Navy, would have a uniform training regime nation wide. World to world exposure to equipment and weapons may vary, but I think the official military for the Imperium (not the local boys) would be justification for dishing out those skills.

If a character is generated by way of a local navy or other service, then I think you have a point.

 

[DangerousThing]

Where does staff fall under Traveller?

I ask because if you have to teach people to fight off people using swords, the staff is the easiest weapon to teach people for this. I used to teach those interested in college (for something like the SCA) and found in about four hours of practice most of my students could fend off a swordsman. Of course, most of these students were both physically fit and skilled at the sword.

In a real world situation I'd want a lot more time or some guns.

 

[far-trader]

Where does staff fall under Traveller?

In CT? Probably under Brawling:

LBB1: "Brawling: Brawling is a general skill for hand-to-hand combat. It includes the use of hands, clubs, and bottles as weapons."

I tend to add here: feet, chairs, boards, etc. etc... and yes, if pressed I'd say staves. Basically any improvised or similar, or natural, weapon. Higher skill levels tend to indicate specific styles such as Judo, Wrestling, Boxing, etc. but that's just colour sub-text

The Traveller Book fleshes out the description a bit more which is probably where I sourced my expanded take:

"Brawling Weapons: Brawling generally involves found
or easily located weapons which are already at the site of
the brawl. Brawling weapons are effective only at close and
short range. Such weapons are classified as clubs, cost
nothing, and generally weigh from 500 to 3000 grams (one
die times 500 grams). Pistols may be used as clubs when
brawling. Bottles may be used as clubs (once, then they
become dagger minus 1). Animals are equipped with their
own weapons, generally specified in the encounter tables
which specify and define the animal."

 

[Blue Ghost]

I think it falls under a cascade skill, doesn't it? At least in MT I think it does.

 

[aramis]

I think it falls under a cascade skill, doesn't it? At least in MT I think it does.

Brawling?
It's part of Hand Combat, but has no cross-over to cudgels.
Blade combat is a cascade under Hand combat, and cudgel falls inside it.

 

[rancke]

Where does staff fall under Traveller?

[The following is based entirely on reading; I have no practical experience on the subject whatsoever.]

If it's a staff that can be wielded one-handed, like a police baton or a jo stick, I'd either allow it to be used with Sword skill or declare it a separate skill[*].

[*] It's certainly as different from a sword as a cutlass is (or more); but then, so is a sabre and that doesn't get a skill of its own. But the again, at the resolution of the the Traveller Combat System, I wouldn't make cutlass a separate skill, so either way it's a problem for me. (Or would be if it cropped up in one of my games).​

If it's a two-handed staff, I'd require a separate skill[**]. I'd allow a default from Spear, but not from Pike or Halberd.

[**] So does the fact that no one has Quarterstaff-0 prove that no one makes Robin Hood remakes in the Classic Era? ​

Hans

 

[Blue Ghost]

What, you mean like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WS5R6ztNTqc

Back to naval infantry...

 

[Fritz_Brown]

I tend to add here: feet, chairs, boards, etc. etc... and yes, if pressed I'd say staves.

Only if it's a two-piece custom-made pool cue. If it's a "proper" staff, you gotta have a "proper" skill.

 

[Blue Ghost]

ST 7
Dex 7
End 7
Int 10
Ed 10
SS 7

Pool Cue - 1

 

[Carlobrand]

[The following is based entirely on reading; I have no practical experience on the subject whatsoever.]

If it's a staff that can be wielded one-handed, like a police baton or a jo stick, I'd either allow it to be used with Sword skill or declare it a separate skill[*].

[*] It's certainly as different from a sword as a cutlass is (or more); but then, so is a sabre and that doesn't get a skill of its own. But the again, at the resolution of the the Traveller Combat System, I wouldn't make cutlass a separate skill, so either way it's a problem for me. (Or would be if it cropped up in one of my games).​

If it's a two-handed staff, I'd require a separate skill[**]. I'd allow a default from Spear, but not from Pike or Halberd.

[**] So does the fact that no one has Quarterstaff-0 prove that no one makes Robin Hood remakes in the Classic Era? ​

Hans

If it's being wielded one-handed, it's basically a cudgel - which oddly enough is one of the (separate) Blade Combat skills you can select. Though, one could argue wielding a properly weighted and designed stick using one of the other Blade Combat skills, say as a non-lethal practice weapon.

If it's a two-handed staff, it can either be used in the traditional "Robin-hood" quarterstaff-fighting style, or it could be used in something more akin to a two-handed sword style - thus Broadsword skill.