Ok, What is the Role of a close Escort?
- Thread starter infojunky
- Start date
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Target practice/recon by fire sacrifice ... otherwise known as a picket/speed bump.
In a meta-game sense, it's the same role as the Type T Patrol Cruiser but for LBB5 space combat, without a boarding party.
That is, countering civilian ships used in piracy or commerce raiding.
- A Close Escort is supposed to do convoy escort of merchant traffic or other high-value small assets. (An essentially defensive mission).
- .A Type T Patrol Corvette is an active independent policing patrol (though it could be assigned Escort Duty as well, I suppose). (An essentially offensive mission).
Another thing to keep in mind is which rule set(s) it operates within.
A Type T is pretty formidable in LBB2.*
In LBB5 and later systems, the same ship is essentially a heavily-armed civilian ship with good acceleration, but not an effective combatant vessel (and is pretty small as military ships go).
It's the far future version of a coast guard cutter.
The Gazelle/Fiery (same stats, latter is streamlined) aren't all that good in LBB5 terms, but they'll wipe the floor with most pure-LBB2 designs in the same size class under LBB5 combat rules. Computer Mod/# upgrades to the Book 2 ships beyond what's needed for a full suite of LBB2 programs might even things out somewhat, but the particle accelerator is devastating against unarmored ships.
--------------
* This in a universe where a Broadsword is a major combatant vessel and the Kinunir is a front-line battlecruiser, and armor isn't really a thing. Bring in LBB5 for real (instead of alluding to it as with the Kinunir), and everything changes.
A Type T is pretty formidable in LBB2.*
In LBB5 and later systems, the same ship is essentially a heavily-armed civilian ship with good acceleration, but not an effective combatant vessel (and is pretty small as military ships go).
It's the far future version of a coast guard cutter.
The Gazelle/Fiery (same stats, latter is streamlined) aren't all that good in LBB5 terms, but they'll wipe the floor with most pure-LBB2 designs in the same size class under LBB5 combat rules. Computer Mod/# upgrades to the Book 2 ships beyond what's needed for a full suite of LBB2 programs might even things out somewhat, but the particle accelerator is devastating against unarmored ships.
--------------
* This in a universe where a Broadsword is a major combatant vessel and the Kinunir is a front-line battlecruiser, and armor isn't really a thing. Bring in LBB5 for real (instead of alluding to it as with the Kinunir), and everything changes.
Last edited:
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
In a small ship universe it is for merchant protection, piracy protection, fighter screen for larger ships, forward sensor picket, that sort of thing.
In a LBB5 universe - target practice.
In a LBB5 universe - target practice.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
1. Unlikely to be clarified by a single sentence.
2. Anything can be a close escort, usually determined by the importance of the vessel or it's cargo to be protected.
3. Destroyers and cruisers can act as convoy or fleet escorts.
4. Usually, older ones for convoys, but normal attrition tends to make them necessary for fleet escort or patrol.
5. At this point, really old vessels get reactivated, and new cheap slow mass produced ones should become available, possibly manufactured to commercial standards.
6. Expectation is to counter substandard armed commercial raiders, comparatively.
7. Hunter killer groups could be positioned nearby to deal with anything more dangerous.
8. Deterrence, or at least ensuring that the convoy arrives mostly in tact, is considered success.
9. Battleships and battlecruisers can escort carriers.
A. Their massive secondary batteries tend to shield important targets from swarms of minor combatants.
B. Traveller rules and mechanics can directly add on to the effectiveness of defensive systems by directly allocating spacecraft as close escorts to specific spaceships.
2. Anything can be a close escort, usually determined by the importance of the vessel or it's cargo to be protected.
3. Destroyers and cruisers can act as convoy or fleet escorts.
4. Usually, older ones for convoys, but normal attrition tends to make them necessary for fleet escort or patrol.
5. At this point, really old vessels get reactivated, and new cheap slow mass produced ones should become available, possibly manufactured to commercial standards.
6. Expectation is to counter substandard armed commercial raiders, comparatively.
7. Hunter killer groups could be positioned nearby to deal with anything more dangerous.
8. Deterrence, or at least ensuring that the convoy arrives mostly in tact, is considered success.
9. Battleships and battlecruisers can escort carriers.
A. Their massive secondary batteries tend to shield important targets from swarms of minor combatants.
B. Traveller rules and mechanics can directly add on to the effectiveness of defensive systems by directly allocating spacecraft as close escorts to specific spaceships.
In a small ship universe, at 400 tons (including tanks) it and the type T are both destroyers, TL A; the TL9 destroyer is subpar in all but armament. (That last is in Mayday.)
The Type T? Yes, in a small-ship LBB2-only universe (while you theoretically could have a LBB5 universe with a hull-size limit at 5KTd -- my guess is that the Kinunir was developed in that context -- you probably wouldn't).
The Gazelle class? It's not terrible in LBB5 1st Ed. Its lack of agility is a serious handicap in 2nd Ed. (a problem shared by the Lightning Class cruisers). Were I to tackle a Gazelle re-work in LBB5'80, I'd trade off a little armor for a bigger power plant and its fuel.
Last edited:
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Armour 3 is too thin, Armour 4 is about minimum to avoid crits from nukes.
In the OTU, the Gazelle isn't going to be facing adversaries with nuclear weapons in its primary role.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Shivvas and the like don't carry nukes? You don't win wars by hoping the enemy don't shoot back...
The original JTAS Gazelle even carried a nuclear damper.
The original JTAS Gazelle even carried a nuclear damper.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Quickie attempt:
TL-15, MCr 300, 300 Dt + 100 Dt tank = 400 Dt.
J-4, M-6, Agility-4 with tank.
J-2, M-6, Agility-6 w/o tank.
J-5 dropping tank.
A token armour 4 and three mixed turrets.
A gig and 4 marines to harass civilians.
TL-15, MCr 300, 300 Dt + 100 Dt tank = 400 Dt.
J-4, M-6, Agility-4 with tank.
J-2, M-6, Agility-6 w/o tank.
J-5 dropping tank.
A token armour 4 and three mixed turrets.
A gig and 4 marines to harass civilians.
Code:
CE-3456971-430000-25002-0 MCr 281 300 Dton Agility=6
CE-4446771-430000-25002-0 MCr 281 400 Dton
bearing 2 11 4 Crew=9
batteries 2 11 4 TL=15
Troops=4 Cargo=34 Fuel=88 EP=28 Agility=4 DropT=100
Dual Occupancy 34 348,0
USP # Dton Cost
Hull, Part Streaml Custom 3 300
Configuration Close Structur 4 18
Scoops Partial 0,3
Armour 4 4 15 10,5
Drop Tanks 100 Dton 0,1
Total tonnage 400 Dton
Jump Drive 4 1 20 80
Manoeuvre D M 6 1 23 48
Power Plant 7 1 28,0 84,0
Fuel, #J, #weeks J-4, 4 weeks 4 28,0
Purifier 1 3 0,0
Bridge 1 20 1,5
Computer m/7 7 1 9 80
Staterooms 5 20 2,5
Staterooms, Half 8 16 2
Cargo 34
Demountable Tanks J-4 1 60 0,1
Mixed Turret Full 1 2
Weapon Fusion 5 1 2
Weapon Pulse 2 1 0,5
Mixed Turret Full 2 2
Weapon Missile 2 2 3
Weapon Sand 3 1 0,5
Gig 20 Dton 1 20 15,0
Nominal Cost MCr 348,04 Sum: 34 348,0
Class Cost MCr 69,94 Valid ≥0 ≥0
Ship Cost MCr 281,43
Crew & High 0 Crew Bridge 2
Passengers Mid 0 9 Engineers 3
Low 0 Gunners 3
Extra SR 0 Frozen Service 1
# Frozen W 0 0 Flight 0
Marines 4 Marines 4Short of all-out war (that is, contesting against routine escort and anti-piracy patrols), using nukes just brings the rest of the Imperial Navy doing it's Implacable Fist of an Angry God impression down on you and all you hold dear. You might win this round, but you're doomed.
Shivvas are LBB2 optimized fighter-carriers anyhow. (Wait, what's the HG-optimized version look like?)
Decent design you've done up. Ditching the PartAcc and swapping in missiles and sandcasters for lasers frees up a lot of power for the maneuver drive there.
Shivvas are LBB2 optimized fighter-carriers anyhow. (Wait, what's the HG-optimized version look like?)
Decent design you've done up. Ditching the PartAcc and swapping in missiles and sandcasters for lasers frees up a lot of power for the maneuver drive there.
Last edited:
The Gazelle can't exist is a pure Bk2 universe. Bk2 has no PA barbettes...
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
I've covered what a close escort could be.
The classic one wouldn't really be a Gazelle, probably has an acceleration factor of three, a range of three parsecs, and might not need armour, just lifeboats.
It should have one or more weapon systems that could seriously damage a commerce raider.
Regarding picket duty, that's more likely for a better equipped destroyer.
The classic one wouldn't really be a Gazelle, probably has an acceleration factor of three, a range of three parsecs, and might not need armour, just lifeboats.
It should have one or more weapon systems that could seriously damage a commerce raider.
Regarding picket duty, that's more likely for a better equipped destroyer.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
What's the point of a fighting ship that can't fight? I don't understand the idea that it's small so it should be a helpless victim.
It's still a warship, it's intended to survive a fight. Why else would you buy it?
The Shivva class is actually a LBB5 design, presumably for a LBB2-type environment:
Note the fib computer and dispersed hull to be able to launch the fighters quickly.
I wouldn't call it optimised...
The missiles have much better to-hit and are more difficult to suppress. The PAs on the Gazelle are more decorative.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
The requirement specification seems to disagree:
The LBB5'80 version might be a failure at this, but that's its primary role. Now, in peace-time they can dawdle around harassing civilians, but the primary purpose is war.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
As usual the issue is trying to combine two superficially similar but actually very different ship paradigms.
What I always wanted as a supplement was a warships book for CT LBB:2. since this has not been forthcoming, I have done the next best thing, collect the options that make sense to me as additions to LBB:2 to build warships rather than the civilian/paramilitary ships that it churns out.
The Gazelle and the Kinunir were hybrids of LBB:2 and LBB:5 with some unexplained terms - what exactly is a heavy laser?
What I always wanted as a supplement was a warships book for CT LBB:2. since this has not been forthcoming, I have done the next best thing, collect the options that make sense to me as additions to LBB:2 to build warships rather than the civilian/paramilitary ships that it churns out.
The Gazelle and the Kinunir were hybrids of LBB:2 and LBB:5 with some unexplained terms - what exactly is a heavy laser?
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
So, what would I require from a Close Escort?
Can keep up with the fleet, so J-4 & M-6.
Can refuel independently, so streamlined and with purifiers.
Can fight a tech-disadvantaged heavy fighter, or its tech-disadvantaged counterpart. (TL-14: Zho, Solomani, Kkree.)
Considerably cheaper than a much more combat effective bay-armed frigate (GCr ~2), so costs less than GCr 0.5, preferably cheaper.
Can kill civilian rabble without needing to be towed to a yard afterwards, remain mobile and combat effective. (So no drop tanks...)
Can I build that? Highly questionable...
Design considerations:
Must be able to hit a Zho (Solomani, Kkree) heavy fighter, so at the very minimum factor 3 missiles batteries and a m/9 computer. (Getting expensive already...)
Can keep up with the fleet, so J-4 & M-6.
Can refuel independently, so streamlined and with purifiers.
Can fight a tech-disadvantaged heavy fighter, or its tech-disadvantaged counterpart. (TL-14: Zho, Solomani, Kkree.)
Considerably cheaper than a much more combat effective bay-armed frigate (GCr ~2), so costs less than GCr 0.5, preferably cheaper.
Can kill civilian rabble without needing to be towed to a yard afterwards, remain mobile and combat effective. (So no drop tanks...)
Can I build that? Highly questionable...
Design considerations:
Must be able to hit a Zho (Solomani, Kkree) heavy fighter, so at the very minimum factor 3 missiles batteries and a m/9 computer. (Getting expensive already...)
