The Solomani, not just bad guys anymore

[tzunder]

Almost all the polities in Known Space have simple one line taglines that collapse under examination!
Part of it is simply the fact that Traveller system gen is designed to create cultural and political heterogeneity; part of it is to allow variant interpretations to allow conflict within as well as without.
Plus people read into societies what they want to see, I am amazed at how many democratic Americans read the Imperium as good or democratic when at a stellar level it is feudal mercantile oligarchy at best.
However it doesn't have to matter, what matters is how people live at the system and subsection level.

There are plenty of ways to tell stories of humanist Solomani who are democratic, with a benign Solomani Party, and also xenophobic and hateful towards non humans. They can struggle against wicked a subversive Imperium that oppresses Terran freedom and incites monarchical fantacism, tries to steal Solomani resources, and bombs Solomani Cultural Embassies.

Now.. that's just humans we recognise. It gets much more tricky with radically different humans.. but even the Zhodani are clearly detailed as really far more heterogeneous than the simple headlines.

I do think that Known Space is surprisingly conservative, assumes capitalism or mercantilism, and rarely democratic or socialist. But hey.. it's SF and you can interpret that UWP in soo many ways.

 

[Condottiere]

What's the point of having power?

To keep it and accumulate more of it.

 

[tzunder]

What's the point of having power?

To keep it and accumulate more of it.

Not really sure how that it is relevant to the chat.

 

[Condottiere]

The Solomani Party's primary purpose is to remain in power (and control).

To be fair, the Imperium's noble and Imperial families have similar goals.

 

[tzunder]

The Solomani Party's primary purpose is to remain in power (and control).

To be fair, the Imperium's noble and Imperial families have similar goals.

Whoever you vote for, the Government gets in?

 

[Condottiere]

Generally true.

Disruptors tend to get coopted, to greater or lesser degrees.

Doesn't mean that it remains static, since successful leaders try to be ahead of the mob, not follow them.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Plus people read into societies what they want to see, I am amazed at how many democratic Americans read the Imperium as good or democratic when at a stellar level it is feudal mercantile oligarchy at best.

"Good" is relative. The 3I has some democratic features within its structure, but ultimately isn't.
They're Stationary Bandits. (wiki -- Mancur Olson) Yeah, skimming off the top, but they have a vested interest in long-term peace and prosperity overall.

Basically, it comes down to, "there's going to be something like an empire anyhow, these guys are at least better than the alternative -- and the democratic elements tend to allow peaceful transitions of power (with rare but notable exceptions)".

My usual shorthand IMTU is "Neither good nor evil, just too big to care".

 

[mike wightman]

There is no democratic element to Imperial government. The Emperor is an authoritarian ruler absolute. His designated underlings, the Dukes, rule in his name.
No one elects the Emperor, only the Emperor appoints Dukes.

In the past I have described it as more akin to the mob...

The Imperium is not a modern western liberal democracy in space, and has none of the trappings of such.

 

[kilemall]

There is no democratic element to Imperial government. The Emperor is an authoritarian ruler absolute. His designated underlings, the Dukes, rule in his name.
No one elects the Emperor, only the Emperor appoints Dukes.

In the past I have described it as more akin to the mob...

The Imperium is not a modern western liberal democracy in space, and has none of the trappings of such.

Er, the Moot?

 

[Condottiere]

The English term is derived from Anglo-Norman and dates to the 14th century, coming from the 11th century Old French parlement, "discussion, discourse", from parler, meaning "to talk".[2] The meaning evolved over time, originally referring to any discussion, conversation, or negotiation through various kinds of deliberative or judicial groups, often summoned by a monarch.

 

[mike wightman]

Er, the Moot?

The Moot doesn't elect... it confirms who they are told to confirm
the Moot can not deselect, indict or through any other mechanism remove an Emperor except by disolving the Imperium, which the Emperor would ignore.

Where was the Moot during the first Civil War era? It's almost as if it was invented purely for MT having never been previously mentioned.

 

[Krikkitone]

There is no democratic element to Imperial government. The Emperor is an authoritarian ruler absolute. His designated underlings, the Dukes, rule in his name.
No one elects the Emperor, only the Emperor appoints Dukes.

In the past I have described it as more akin to the mob...

The Imperium is not a modern western liberal democracy in space, and has none of the trappings of such.

I think it is more that it is a slightly liberal autocracy. The government does not consult the people, but it is a limited government (most of the time….but that is also true of liberal democracies).
The “liberal” elements are due to the fact that the “leader who is there” is more important than the emperor in what they want, because the emperor doesn’t really care about XYZ details in subsector ABC. And so the government officials most important to my life as a free trader is the subsector noble and the world governments that I trade with.

That said it seems set up that any of the major powers of Charted Space can be viewed in that variety of ways… ie under the right circumstances you can get caught in a dystopian nightmare in any of them. and in any of them you may have parts of society that increase flourishing. The TI and Solomani are the most “neutral” of those (the others have increasingly bizzare horrors or happiness as options). And as such I could see living under either of those governments not too different than living under a a random nation on Earth today (some areas more democratic or war torn, but public opinion is important in all areas, exploitation occurs in all areas)

 

[Condottiere]

Protection money.

The difference is actual application for social benefit.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Protection money.

The difference is actual application for social benefit.

Honest graft refers to the money-making opportunities that might arise while holding public office. The activities are, strictly speaking, legal, although they might raise eyebrows or provoke criticism. [politicaldictionary.com]

 

[Murph]

The Moot doesn't elect... it confirms who they are told to confirm
the Moot can not deselect, indict or through any other mechanism remove an Emperor except by disolving the Imperium, which the Emperor would ignore.

Where was the Moot during the first Civil War era? It's almost as if it was invented purely for MT having never been previously mentioned.

Good point. Very good point. Another Deus Ex Machina to justify fouling up Traveller......

 

[Ulsyus]

The Solomani Party's primary purpose is to remain in power (and control).

To be fair, the Imperium's noble and Imperial families have similar goals.

That follows a pattern of authoritarian regimes trying to ensure their own survival.

That said, democratic governments attempt to ensure their survival and prevent a slide into authoritarianism, so the desire to keep their system extends to this type as well.

Whoever you vote for, the Government gets in?

But if you don't get to vote for the government, your opinion doesn't really matter does it? If the Solomani Party is the only game in town, then feelings about its efficacy or anything else just don't matter

 

[Condottiere]

The best analogy I can think of would be Renaissance Europe.

Most people are Christian, but it's factionalized.

Also, occasionally you have to burn a couple of witches and heretics.

And the Solomani Inquisition.

 

[BackworldTraveller]

The best analogy I can think of would be Renaissance Europe.

Most people are Christian, but it's factionalized.

Also, occasionally you have to burn a couple of witches and heretics.

And the Solomani Inquisition.

Nobody expects the Solomani Inquisition!

 

[BackworldTraveller]

The best analogy I can think of would be Renaissance Europe.

Most people are Christian, but it's factionalized.

Also, occasionally you have to burn a couple of witches and heretics.

And the Solomani Inquisition.

And being an Admiral doesn't excuse you from being sacrificed to political expediency.

Occasionally they hang one to encourage the others

 

[Ulsyus]

The best analogy I can think of would be Renaissance Europe.

Most people are Christian, but it's factionalized.

Also, occasionally you have to burn a couple of witches and heretics.

And the Solomani Inquisition.

As in: the Solomani Sphere is Ren Europe, and the Solomani are the main game in town but there's a protesting movement? Or did you mean something else?

And being an Admiral doesn't excuse you from being sacrificed to political expediency.

Cardinal Admiral Biggles was always going to have to deal with some friction...