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MGT Only: 300-ton stretched refitted Free Trader

Idley curioous, what would the figure to go for, cargo-wise, if I up this to a 400 ton design? 150dT? more?

For comparison, from MgT HG2e, pp 160, the stats for the book 400-ton subsidised merchant...

Code:
TL12 Subsidised Merchant

Item            Description                         Tons      Cost (MCr)
Hull            400 tons, Streamlined               -         24
Armour          Armour: 0                           -         -
M-Drive         Thrust 1                            4         8
J-Drive         Jump-1                              15        22.5
Power Plant     Fusion, Power 135                   9         9
Fuel Tanks      4 weeks operation, J-1              41        -
Bridge          -                                   20        2
Computer        Computer 5                          -         0.03
Sensors         Civilian Grade                      1         3
Weapons         -                                   -         -
Systems         Fuel Scoop                          -         -
                Fuel Processors (20/tons a day)     1         0.05
                Docking Space (20 tons)             22        5.5
                Launch                              -         5.607
Staterooms      Standard x 19                       76        9.5
Software        Low Berths x 9                      4.5       0.45
                Jump Control/1                      -         0.1
                Library                             -         -
                Manoeuvre/0                         -         -
Common Areas    -                                   5.5        0.55
Cargo           -                                   201        -

This devoted literally 50.25% to cargo, with a LOT of passenger space. Now, granted, the Type R is only M-1/J-1, and I'm designing for M-2/J-2, with fewer passengers, but even so, would a third of the ship to cargo be, ball park/gut feeling, too little for a Type AP Subsidised Frontier Trader?
 
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I whipped up a Q&D 400 dTon, jump2 design for you to use as a base of comparison.

It's the Type-R from TTA with as few differences as possible. Those differences are: jump2, fuel for two parsecs, a Model 2 computer, 4 turret sockets instead of 2, and the extra engineer the drives require.

There are still 13 staterooms to split between the crew and pax, 9 low berths, and a 20 dTon launch.
Ship: March Hopper
Class: Redcap
Type: Type-R LX
Architect: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
EX-4421221-000000-00000-0 MCr 174.422 400 Tons
Bat Bear Crew: 6
Bat TL: 12

Cargo: 159.500 Passengers: 7 Frozen Watch 0 Fuel: 88.000 EP: 8.000 Agility: 1
Craft: 1 x 20T Launch
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 1.744 Cost in Quantity: MCr 139.538

Detailed Description

TONNAGE
400.000 tons standard, 5,600.000 cubic meters, Close Structure Configeration

CREW
Pilot, Navigator, 2 Engineers, Steward, Medic

ENGINEERING
Jump-2, 1G Manuever, Power plant-2, 8.000 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/2 Computer

HARDPOINTS
4 Hardpoints

ARMARMENT
4 None Empty Turret

DEFENCES
None

CRAFT
1 20.000 ton Launch (Crew of 0)

FUEL
84.000 Tons Fuel (2 parsecs jump and 30 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
13.0 Staterooms, 9 Low Berths, 159.500 Tons Cargo

COST
MCr 176.166 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 1.744), MCr 139.538 in Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
82 Weeks Singly, 65 Weeks in Quantity

By way of contrast, my "bare bones" TL11, 300 dTon, jump2 design had 15 staterooms, 12 low berths, no launch, an air/raft, and 107 tons of cargo. Going "up" 100 tons gives you the launch and over 50 more dTons of cargo at the same performance.

Hope this helps.
 
With armour and arms you gain less space, but still a lot.
The ship I posted earlier had 75 dT cargo @ 300 dT, it would have 134 dT cargo @ 400 dT (but with 4 hardpoints a 6 man crew is iffy, add another gunner and we are down to 130 dT cargo). Price goes up from MCr 98.2 to MCr 114.5. Income potential doubles.

On the other hand you will fill it less often from the cargo tables.

Code:
    Jumps / Year       Cost / Jump        kCr        Revenue / Jump        kCr
         25            Mortgage         171,5        High                120,0
                       Maintenance        3,4        Mid                   0,0
                       Fuel               6,1        Low                  13,0
                       Life Support      15,8        Cargo               120,0
                       Salaries          10,1                
                       Berthing, average  1,8                
                                        
                                        208,7                            253,0
                                               Potential    44,3        
                                               Year MCr      1,1
becomes
Code:
    Jumps / Year       Cost / Jump        kCr        Revenue / Jump        kCr
         25            Mortgage         206,2        High                120,0
                       Maintenance        4,1        Mid                   0,0
                       Fuel               8,1        Low                  13,0
                       Life Support      15,8        Cargo               214,4
                       Salaries          10,1                
                       Berthing, average  1,8                
                                        
                                        246,0                            347,4
                                               Potential   101,4        
                                               Year MCr      2,5
 
I suggest a quick look at the Freight and Passenger tables for the rule system of choice would be a good place to start looking for the balance between cargo and passengers.

I would personally start with the design of a stripped down freight-only version as my base design starting point and see how you could upgrade that for a target market.
 
With armour and arms you gain less space, but still a lot.
The ship I posted earlier had 75 dT cargo @ 300 dT, it would have 134 dT cargo @ 400 dT (but with 4 hardpoints a 6 man crew is iffy, add another gunner and we are down to 130 dT cargo). Price goes up from MCr 98.2 to MCr 114.5. Income potential doubles.

On the other hand you will fill it less often from the cargo tables.


becomes
Code:
    Jumps / Year       Cost / Jump        kCr        Revenue / Jump        kCr
         25            Mortgage         206,2        High                120,0
                       Maintenance        4,1        Mid                   0,0
                       Fuel               8,1        Low                  13,0
                       Life Support      15,8        Cargo               214,4
                       Salaries          10,1                
                       Berthing, average  1,8                
                                        
                                        246,0                            347,4
                                               Potential   101,4        
                                               Year MCr      2,5

Yeah; this is likely why there aren't too many commercial ships in the 300dT range (why am I voicing that like Arnie? "A traydah in da treehunnet-dee-tee range" ;) )

I suggest a quick look at the Freight and Passenger tables for the rule system of choice would be a good place to start looking for the balance between cargo and passengers.

I would personally start with the design of a stripped down freight-only version as my base design starting point and see how you could upgrade that for a target market.

That's not a bad idea (stripped down version first), that. Thanks :)
 
I whipped up a Q&D 400 dTon, jump2 design for you to use as a base of comparison.

It's the Type-R from TTA with as few differences as possible. Those differences are: jump2, fuel for two parsecs, a Model 2 computer, 4 turret sockets instead of 2, and the extra engineer the drives require.

There are still 13 staterooms to split between the crew and pax, 9 low berths, and a 20 dTon launch.


By way of contrast, my "bare bones" TL11, 300 dTon, jump2 design had 15 staterooms, 12 low berths, no launch, an air/raft, and 107 tons of cargo. Going "up" 100 tons gives you the launch and over 50 more dTons of cargo at the same performance.

Hope this helps.

Whoops, thought I'd commented on this earlier, but apparently not - yeah, that's handy, thanks :)

It's looking more like a 400dT type AP Sub Trader, instead of a 300dT one, which is irritating, but I can get over that (Big of me, that, isn't it ;) ) if this does the job.

I'll mess about with the CT book 5 (HG) process first (I've software for that, makes things a darn sight easier to change things on the fly), and if that works, I'll move up to the MgT spreadsheet, and see what I can develop. More shortly.
 
By the way, where do those figures come from (potential etc), and how did you arrive at them?

Code:
    Jumps / Year       Cost / Jump        kCr        Revenue / Jump        kCr
         25            Mortgage         206,2        High                120,0
                       Maintenance        4,1        Mid                   0,0
                       Fuel               8,1        Low                  13,0
                       Life Support      15,8        Cargo               214,4
                       Salaries          10,1                
                       Berthing, average  1,8                
                                        
                                        246,0                            347,4
                                               Potential   101,4        
                                               Year MCr      2,5
Potential income is "Revenue / Jump" - "Cost / Jump".
Year is Potential Income × "Jumps / Year".
Revenue is based on a full ship.
Mortgage is based on standard design (10% discount). A Year is 12 months.
 
OK, first three versions using High Guard Shipyard v1.314 for CT.

These are 400dT hulls, one bare of everything, one with turrets, one with turrets and armour. The staterooms are automatically generated, I'll fix that on the next run through (you can do them manually, but it saves time when prototyping to let the package determine them), but it's interesting to see how the cargo space varies with armour, let alone crew/passenger levels, staterooms, and low berths.

Oh, and I'm not ready to play with the MgT spreadsheet on this yet; once I've nailed down the CT HG design, yeah, as I'll have a better handle on what's needed and not needed, but for now, have a look, and as usual, comments/observations/suggestions are welcome :).
 

Attachments

Code:
    Jumps / Year       Cost / Jump        kCr        Revenue / Jump        kCr
         25            Mortgage         206,2        High                120,0
                       Maintenance        4,1        Mid                   0,0
                       Fuel               8,1        Low                  13,0
                       Life Support      15,8        Cargo               214,4
                       Salaries          10,1                
                       Berthing, average  1,8                
                                        
                                        246,0                            347,4
                                               Potential   101,4        
                                               Year MCr      2,5
Potential income is "Revenue / Jump" - "Cost / Jump".
Year is Potential Income × "Jumps / Year".
Revenue is based on a full ship.
Mortgage is based on standard design (10% discount). A Year is 12 months.

Cool. Did a spreadsheet do this (if so, which one?), or did you work it up yourself?
 
Whipsnade, what version is that? Seems a bit high in cost, just did the mortgage numbers and that could be tough to sustain even with MgT's higher rates.
 
OK, final CT Book 2 design for the 400-dT Type AP Frontier Trader

Code:
Ship: Subsidised Frontier Trader
Class: TBD
Type: AP
Architect: Roger Stenning
Tech Level: 13

USP
         AP-4122221-030000-20002-0 MCr 197.670 400 Tons
Bat Bear             2     2   2   Crew: 9
Bat                  2     2   2   TL: 13

Cargo: 150 Passengers: 8 Crew Sections: 1 of 9 Low: 10 Fuel: 88 EP: 8 Agility: 1
Craft: 1 x 20T Ship's Launch
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 1.837   Cost in Quantity: MCr 160.936


Detailed Description
  (High Guard Design)

HULL
400.000 tons standard, 5,600.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Navigator, 2 Engineers, Steward, Medic, 2 Gunners, 1 Flight Crew

ENGINEERING
Jump-2, 2G Manuever, Power plant-2, 8.000 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/2 Computer

HARDPOINTS
2 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
2 Triple Mixed Turrets each with: 1 Beam Laser (Factor-2), 1 Missile Rack (Factor-2).

DEFENCES
1 Sandcaster in each Mixed Turret, organised into 2 Batteries (Factor-3)

CRAFT
1 20.000 ton Ship's Launch (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 14.000)

FUEL
88 Tons Fuel (2 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
15 Staterooms, 10 Low Berths, 4 High Passengers, 4 Middle Passengers, 10 Low Passengers, 150 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 185.507 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 1.837), MCr 146.936 in Quantity, plus MCr 14.000 of Carried Craft (Hardpoints and Turrets charged)

CONSTRUCTION TIME
82 Weeks Singly, 65 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS



TBD Class AP

HULL
Hull: 0.000 Td; MCr 48.000
Armour Factor-0: 0.000 Td; MCr 0.000

ENGINEERING
M-Drive Factor-2: 20.000 Td; MCr 14.000
J-Drive Factor-2: 12.000 Td; MCr 48.000
P-Plant Factor-2: 16.000 Td; MCr 48.000; +8.000 EP

FUEL
P-Fuel: 8.000 Td; MCr 0,000
J-Fuel: 80.000 Td; MCr 0.000
Scoops: 0.000 Td; MCr 0.400
Purification: 5.000 Td; MCr 0.030
L-Hyd Drop Tanks: 0.000 Td; MCr 0.000

AVIONICS
Bridge: 20.000 Td; MCr 2.000
Computer Model/2: 2.000 Td; MCr 9.000; -0 EP

WEAPONRY
2 x Mixed Turrets: 2.000 Td; MCr 6.200

SCREENS

CRAFT
1 x Ship's Launch: 20.000Td; MCr 0.040; Cost of craft: MCr 14.000

ACCOMODATIONS
15.0 x Staterooms: 60.000 Td; MCr 7.500
10 x Low Berths: 5.000 Td; MCr 0.500
Cargo: 150.000 Td; MCr 0.000

USER DEFINED
Designed using High Guard Shipyard v1.314

The passengers really eat into the cargo space, but that's not much of a surprise.

I decided that armour wouldn't be fitted, as it eats way too much available space.

I've only fitted two turrets, which reduces the required crewing for them. There are two hardpoints left for later refits, should they be required.

The program makes no allowance for double-hatting the crew members, and as a result, the automated listing for the crew is incorrect, as I'm double-hatting a couple of them, as follows:

CREW
Pilot,
Navigator,
Chief Engineer,
Second Engineer,
Medic,
Steward / Gunner,
Boat Pilot / Gunner.

That's a total of seven crew, all with their own staterooms, plus four high and four mid (with their own staterooms, eight in total), and ten low (each with their own cryotube, no false economy here!), passengers.

That leaves exactly 150dT of cargo space.

Comments/observations/suggestions, if you would be so kind :) Once those are in, I'll get on with working up the MgT HG version :)
 
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I would always go stripped down for the initial build and add on higher computer models or weapons or small craft if they are not needed initially. No need to pay for the add-ons twice, which is what happens with mortgages.

Gives a nice middling goal to shoot for, so to speak.
 
m1 would give you 24 dtons more to work with. or mmm/sss turrets would allow better offense and defense and permit agility 2.
 
Crap. Someone better check me on this, I think it's nonviable...

Code:
Outgoings Per month

Item			     Book Monthly Cost             Actual Cost
=======================================================================
Mortgage                     Varies on ship                Cr   823,625

Life Support                 Cr1000 per stateroom,         Cr    15,000
                             Cr3000 for double occupancy,  .
                             Cr100 per low berth,          Cr     1,000
                             Cr1000 per person             Cr    25,000

Fuel                         Cr500 per refined ton,        Cr    88,000
                             Cr100 per unrefined ton       Cr    16,800

Repairs and Maintenance      0.1% of purchase price,
                             divided by 12                 Cr 1,482,525

Salary: Pilot                Cr6000                        Cr     6,000
Salary: Astrogator           Cr5000                        Cr     5,000
Salary: Engineer             Cr4000                        Cr     4,000
Salary: Second Engineer      -                             Cr     3,500
Salary: Medic                Cr3000                        Cr     3,000
Salary: Boat Pilot / Gunner  -                             Cr     2,500
Salary: Steward              Cr2000                        -
Salary: Steward / Gunner     -                             Cr     2,500                        
Salary: Gunner               Cr1000                        -

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Total outgoings/month                                      Cr 2,462,450
=======================================================================

Full capacity/Occupancy revenue per month:

150 dT cargo                 Cr  1,600 / J-2               Cr   480,000
4 x High pax                 Cr 12,000 / J-2               Cr    96,000
4 x Mid Pax                  Cr  9,000 / J-2               Cr    72,000
10 x Low Pax                 Cr  1,300 / J-2               Cr    26,000

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Total revenue incoming / month                             Cr   674,000
=======================================================================
DEFICIT:                                                   Cr 1,788,450

* One months income/outgoings based on two jump-2 per standard month
  using refined fuel only.

Waitaminit.

This is for a SUBSIDISED trader, so no mortgage payments. Oh, pooh. Still nonviable. Deficit is still Cr 964,825 without mortgage payments. :(
 
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