Are fleets too Large in Traveller

[aramis]

Given the way they fight battles, I'd have them running lots of fleet maneuvers and target exercises, the occasional show-the-flag mission to impress and intimidate, the odd specialty mission that only a cruiser or battlewagon can perform, and leave the patrolling to the destroyers and escorts.

As would I, and I get a similar feeling from various CT and MT sources...

I find the assumption that the ships of the line would be port-queens just about counter to my grip of the canonical OTU. And certainly counter to the needs of the 3I to show the flag.

 

[rancke]

Yes, they're very much different. The station that the IN ships are deployed to is the equivalent of a present-day home fleet. In peacetime those batrons and crurons are not gallivanting around. They're stationed at the subsector capital or at some of the secondary bases, and the families would be housed groundside, a shuttle flight from the crewmembers.

That is not really how Imperial Squadrons describes things.

How does Imperial Squadrons describe things then?

Besides, being stationed somewhere is usually not really the same as being deployed there.

For example, I was stationed out of San Diego but I was deployed on Gonzo Station in the Straits of Hormuz.

I'm quite possibly using the terms incorrectly. But perhaps used correctly they do not apply the way you and timeover believe. Timeover seems to belive that being stationed to a numbered fleet is the same thing as being deployed away from family and loved ones. I suggest that it could be a lot more like being stationed at San Diego than like being deployed in the Straits of Hormuz.

(Note: I'm not saying every ship is kept at a base for the whole year. I'm saying that the combat vessels (the big guys) are. Some of the small fry will be sent on patrol sweeps, but there's no reason to suppose the IN won't have enough small fry to keep such patrols down to, say, three months at a time.

Its the length of deployment away from the base that they're stationed that I am talking about. In modern times where travel is not a serious issue, deployments are limited in length.

The Classic Era is not modern times.

Age of Sail is not a good comparison as travel times force deployments to be very long and the families are pretty much screwed over in just about every way according to "Daily Life in the Age of Sail" by James M. and Dorothy Denneen Volo.

Why is that not a good comparison? Besides, in this case I'm simply pointing to a historical example where military deployment did last for very long times. Perhaps such long deployments aren't actually the case for the IN (my primary supposition), but even if they were, the IN might either have ways to alleviate to problems or callously accept the negative consequences as the price of doing business.

Are they? or are they out patrolling half the time? Non GT sources seem rather fuzzy about the matter.

I wasn't aware of any sources, GT or otherwise, that wasn't fuzzy about the matter.

That (i.e. canon being fuzzy) being the case, we're free to imagine that the IN doesn't send its batrons and crurons gallivanting away from their bases but mostly keep them where the admiral knows where they can be reached by comm call if he suddenly needs them.

I'll grant that there is one piece of canon that speaks against that. The deployment of Tigresses in peacetime as described in FS. That has always seemed very much a misuse of assets to me. The ones deployed to Five Sisters are especially puzzling. I tend to think of those deployments as huge propaganda operations rather than sensible SOP deployments[*]. YMMV.

[*] A deployment from Rhylanor to Andor would eat up a lot of time in transit. Just getting there will take ten jumps. It sounds a lot more like a stunt than like a proper use of a Tigress.​

Hans

 

[rancke]

Given the way they fight battles, I'd have them running lots of fleet maneuvers and target exercises, the occasional show-the-flag mission to impress and intimidate, the odd specialty mission that only a cruiser or battlewagon can perform, and leave the patrolling to the destroyers and escorts.

That's also how I see it.


Hans

 

[rancke]

As would I, and I get a similar feeling from various CT and MT sources...

I find the assumption that the ships of the line would be port-queens just about counter to my grip of the canonical OTU. And certainly counter to the needs of the 3I to show the flag.

System-queens, Wil. I'm thinking they usually stay within comm call of the admiral. Or of HQ if the admiral goes along on the maneuvers. I've nothing whatsoever against the notion that they'd go on maneuvers frequently.

Just not year-long maneuvers in the neighboring system.


Hans

 

[aramis]

System-queens, Wil. I'm thinking they usually stay within comm call of the admiral. Or of HQ if the admiral goes along on the maneuvers. I've nothing whatsoever against the notion that they'd go on maneuvers frequently.

Just not year-long maneuvers in the neighboring system.


Hans

Then they're absolutely WORTHLESS for showing the flag.

During the age of Sail, Capital ships HAD to be where the fleet was to operate - port admirals were commonly portrayed as inept, well meaning but inept at best, power-mad sycophant abusers at worst.

During the age of steam, we find the port-queen battleships - and the era ends with them being sunk as we hit the Dreadnought era (circa 1906-1920). That had a lot to do with 2-week fuel bunkers, tho.

The navies who had kept their firepower in the field presented a more credible threat than those who kept them in blue-water near shore, and those who kept them in blue water more than those who kept them in port.

During the "modern" era - 1965 on - we find that almost no major navies presented a credible threat by staying close to home.

It's basic Mahan theory - the closer to home you keep your ships, the more irrelevant to geopolitics they are, and the more they are for home-political dog and pony show grandstanding.

Keeping them operating in-system with the base is WORSE than keeping them "ported-and-ready" - because now you can't be certain that the crews are ready, and further, they're hours outside of comm. In sight, but out of immediate dispatch. For reaction purposes, they're no closer to the Enemy, AND they're going to have lag departing, and may need to spend a couple days coming back in to replenish before your can deploy them.

I can think of more unviable defensive deployments, but not any that any sane officer would use. Unfortunately, system queens is EXACTLY what a politician might suggest during budget cuts.... and it's not quite as bad as ship cuts entirely, so some admirals might see it as a viable compromise...

Oh, and a nifty quote from S9: "In peace, various Tigresses are often scattered throughout a region on peacekeeping missions, or to show the flag. Several individual Tigresses have been deployed among the worlds of the Five Sisters subsector to enforce the amber zone blockade of Candory and Andor." Not "System Queens" by that text...

 

[Carlobrand]

System-queens, Wil. I'm thinking they usually stay within comm call of the admiral. Or of HQ if the admiral goes along on the maneuvers. I've nothing whatsoever against the notion that they'd go on maneuvers frequently.

Just not year-long maneuvers in the neighboring system.


Hans

Part of fleet maneuvers would necessarily be fleet exercises intended to test the ability of fleet combat elements and logistic/support elements to coordinate movements to ensure the combat ships got needed supplies and the operational information they need to coordinate strategy with other fleets while maneuvering from system to system. For example, an exercise might test how a fleet would remain in supply while pursuing an enemy retreating through several systems, or how best to keep logistic elements coordinated in the event a fleet were forced to retreat from a system. Given the communication delays integral to Traveller, drilling on and experimenting with various contingency plans to deal with the unexpected would be a vital part of peacetime operations intended to train command and staff officers.

These wouldn't be year-long, but they could easily run two or three months.

 

[shield]

The TNS reports that detailed Dulinor's hidden fleet that he built in verge mentions that verge was used for IN tests / wargames that could last up to a year, so we must assume that some of those training patrols last that long.

As for personnel moving around and taking their families with them. Its not unreasonable for them to uproot a military family and ship them to the nearest naval base to the place the military member is stationed deployed.

Using the HG career, I would guess that the individual 1 year assignments are probably within the same subsector (with possible exceptions for special duty), major moves - across subsector or sector boundaries are every 4 year term (if necessary).

Note sure how much it applies to officers - we have Norris being sent to the old expanses / Diasporia as part of this military career - a heck of a re-deployment. It might be that as noble they shipped him across the empire so he could get a grasp of the wider nature of the empire and also to stop local noble / navy cliques forming.

All this movement of personnel and families could take up a fair bit of MCr - either on navy transports or commercial shipping hired for the job.

Cheers
Richard

 

[robject]

Seems that relative autonomy from fixed locations is a hallmark of Traveller anyway. I'm not sure if it applies well to the Imperial navy, but it might.

 

[rancke]

Then they're absolutely WORTHLESS for showing the flag.

They are, OTOH, pretty well suited for defending the worlds they's supposed to be be defending and for rapid response to dangers.

During the age of Sail, Capital ships HAD to be where the fleet was to operate - port admirals were commonly portrayed as inept, well meaning but inept at best, power-mad sycophant abusers at worst.

The admiral commanding a numbered fleet would be in charge of the whole she-bang. He'd be the equivalent of the admiral in command of a foreign station during the Age of Sail, except that in some ways he'd be closer to the First Lord of the Admiralty of one Britain in an empire of 320 Britains. In charge of an organization about the size of the present day US Navy and in charge of running something much more like an entire navy than just a single (present-day) fleet. Numbered fleets are BIG and they cover a lot of teritory. Individual divisions or even squadrons may be sent to show the flag, but the Fleet Admiral is mostly going to stay at his proper place, at the subsector naval HQ.

It's basic Mahan theory - the closer to home you keep your ships, the more irrelevant to geopolitics they are, and the more they are for home-political dog and pony show grandstanding.

Is that relevant? How is it relevant? What in an Imperial subsector in the Classic Era do you see as the equivalent of the geopolitics on Earth?

Keeping them operating in-system with the base is WORSE than keeping them "ported-and-ready" - because now you can't be certain that the crews are ready, and further, they're hours outside of comm.

Being hours outside of comm is still a lot better than being a week out of comm.

Oh, and a nifty quote from S9: "In peace, various Tigresses are often scattered throughout a region on peacekeeping missions, or to show the flag. Several individual Tigresses have been deployed among the worlds of the Five Sisters subsector to enforce the amber zone blockade of Candory and Andor." Not "System Queens" by that text...

That would be the text I referred to in my post above. There are some very interesting questions arising from that quote. First and foremost, what is the Admiral of the 212th Fleet at Rhylanor doing deploying his assets to worlds in Five Sisters? Or 'throughout a region' assuming said region is larger than the Rhylanor subsector alone? It sounds to me like it's something he must have been ordered to do by the Sector Admiralty. As I said above, political propaganda stunts rather than sound SOP deployments.

In any case, the admiral of the 212th isn't going to be aboard any of those deployed Tigresses, is he? Come to that, the poor admiral commanding the #th BatRon is going to have to chose one of his scattered Tigresses to stay aboard while the rest are months out of contact.

Indeed, the Admiral of the 212th isn't going to be aboard any of his deployed squadrons. He's going to be back at Fleet HQ on Rhylanor. And he's going to stay there until he's relieved or sent to throw the Vargr out of the Kinorb Cluster.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Part of fleet maneuvers would necessarily be fleet exercises intended to test the ability of fleet combat elements and logistic/support elements to coordinate movements to ensure the combat ships got needed supplies and the operational information they need to coordinate strategy with other fleets while maneuvering from system to system. For example, an exercise might test how a fleet would remain in supply while pursuing an enemy retreating through several systems, or how best to keep logistic elements coordinated in the event a fleet were forced to retreat from a system. Given the communication delays integral to Traveller, drilling on and experimenting with various contingency plans to deal with the unexpected would be a vital part of peacetime operations intended to train command and staff officers.

These wouldn't be year-long, but they could easily run two or three months.

I have no objections to anything you say here. I just don't think such maneuvers would involve an entire numbered fleet at once and the Fleet Admiral may occasionally be aboard one of the ships during such a maneuver, but he'd have an office and a staff and a HQ on the subsector capital and he'd be expected to do his job there most of the time.

Timeover was objecting to year long deployments to Imperial fleets. I don't think people are deployed to Imperial fleets, I think they're stationed to them.


Hans

 

[Timerover51]

Yep, again I thought I was clear, the Traveller naval 'camp followers', 'service brats', whatever you call them I'm proposing only as an option, make up their own 'fleet' of non-combatant ships. Mobile PX, housing, recreation, etc. Everything one would find in a typical modern base town.

Also deals with the shore leave abuses and such I think.

A traveling "Strip" would make an absolutely magnificent target for the opposition. Either the fleet commander splits his forces to cover that grouping while he is engaging in combat elsewhere, or he leaves that at his last jumping point prior to combat. Given the limited number of stars in the Spinward Marches, it would not take a lot to determine where the traveling "Strip" is likely to be, and then hit it with a small force.

 

[shield]

I think Far Trader is proposing moving dependants and some camp followers from 1 naval base to another - probably on a once per term basis, so that ships crews have their families at the base they are stationed at.

E.g. if you move get posted from lanth to a patrol cruiser out of regina, the navy ships your entire family from lanth to regina and puts them up on base housing. The crewman can see home and family every 2 months or so when the patrol ship gets back in.

Don't think he was suggesting a troop ship full of camp followers lingering at the edge of the system or at the rear of the fleet

 

[rancke]

A traveling "Strip" would make an absolutely magnificent target for the opposition.

But targetting a civilian ship would be completely contrary to the conventions of war. It would be something like the barbarisms of some pre-starflight worlds, right out of the dark ages of history.




Hans

 

[aramis]

Hans: Look up (and read) Alfred Thayer Mahan's The Influence of Seapower Upon History. It's THE definitive text for naval strategy (but ignores tactics for the most part) and geopolitics, which is part of why it's part of US Naval Education for Naval Officers.

Mahan's theories are about the most relevant of the historical naval strategy and geopolitical texts there are.

Oh, and defending a single world, unless kept within 2-3 hours of it, is a practical impossibility. And, given Traveller N-space speeds, 2-3 hours pretty much equates to "in orbit". Again, fail on the system-queen theory. (Not to mention that it fails multiple quotes of canon.)

 

[rancke]

Hans: Look up (and read) Alfred Thayer Mahan's The Influence of Seapower Upon History. It's THE definitive text for naval strategy (but ignores tactics for the most part) and geopolitics, which is part of why it's part of US Naval Education for Naval Officers.

Mahan's theories are about the most relevant of the historical naval strategy and geopolitical texts there are.

Yes, lovely. Next time I'm involved in a 20th Century naval campaign set on Earth I'll check it out. I repeat (slightly rephrased), what aspect of the politics of an Imperial duchy/subsector do you see as equivalent to 20th Century geopolitics?

Oh, and defending a single world, unless kept within 2-3 hours of it, is a practical impossibility. And, given Traveller N-space speeds, 2-3 hours pretty much equates to "in orbit". Again, fail on the system-queen theory. (Not to mention that it fails multiple quotes of canon.)

Yes, I'll retract that bit. I was mixing up the duties of a fleet admiral with the duties of an admiral commanding a batron or even a task force of several squadrons.

I stick to my assertation that the admiral commanding an Imperial numbered fleet will stay in his planetside HQ most of the time. He may dispactch parts of his ships and squadrons on patrols and maneuvers and deployments, but he'll retain other parts of his ships and squadrons in orbit so that he has assets available to respond to arising problems. I'm not saying some fleet admirals won't go along for the ride when the big exercises are organized, but I am saying that it's not really his job; he'll have lesser flag officers to do the grunt work.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

...(I) don't think he (Far Trader) was suggesting a troop ship full of camp followers lingering at the edge of the system or at the rear of the fleet

Actually that is (almost) what I am proposing. Not that they linger at the edge of the system though, they'll be in orbit or on the ground at the starport... WITH the fleet in peacetime, in the rear to a degree in war. It solves a lot of "problems" imo.

It won't be a troop ship though. It will be several ships of varying sizes, configurations, and missions (to use the term loosely). A hospital ship (or section of same on some other ships). A barracks ship (though that term is a poor one for this case) of homes (stateroom suites) for dependents of the service personnel with recreational spaces, schools, shops, etc. (the "community"). And a few trades ships (not merchants, but skilled trades) to handle maintenance, repairs, fabrication and such for the fleet.

Not every naval base has the requisite population or TL to handle every Imperial fleet that might visit. The trades ships make up for that. The locals handle the servicing of locally stationed fleets

A traveling "Strip" would make an absolutely magnificent target for the opposition. Either the fleet commander splits his forces to cover that grouping while he is engaging in combat elsewhere, or he leaves that at his last jumping point prior to combat. Given the limited number of stars in the Spinward Marches, it would not take a lot to determine where the traveling "Strip" is likely to be, and then hit it with a small force.

A few points:

You're forgetting the travelling "strip" can travel. In wartime it can retreat to a position behind the lines if needed, and move again if it has to.

Do you imagine the naval base and local starport are entirely defenseless? Or that if they are the fleet commander wouldn't be dedicating part of the forces at their disposal to it's defense?

What "small force" is going to be able to get anywhere near the travelling "strip" when the fleet is there? And how would that be any different from the chances of the same small force targeting the naval base? Or the starport? And again, if the fleet has deployed there is still the local defense forces to deal with... IF the travelling "strip" is even still there and hasn't travelled on.

Do you you imagine it makes sense that said travelling "strip" will be totally defenseless? Or is it more likely to be mounting its own weapons, crewed by competent gunners... retired naval trained gunners, probably with combat experience at that.

 

[aramis]

Hans - if you don't see the relevance of geopolitical theory - namely, that terrain considerations make visible projection of force the primary political tool - then there's no point in discussing ANY of this with you.

Fleets are NOT tools of defense. They're tools of politics. Defense is merely one of the methods of maintaining power. Projection of force, especially visible projection of force, is FAR more important to an empire.

If you have a routine of keeping major assets ported, and a border that's relatively porous to mercantile traffic (the latter being pretty explicit in canon), then mercantile assets can be used to ascertain a general deployment pattern. (Ships can't be readily hidden.)

You have to present to such shipping a visible presence that is sufficiently large and insufficiently predictable that an aggressor can't plot defeat in detail and can't ensure they'll find the major assets for outnumbered set-piece battles. Why? Because that merchant shipping is the major source of naval intelligence.

Further, you have to show the border worlds that their tax monies ARE working to protect them from agression from across the border - otherwise, the guys across the border may begin to look like a better deal; it's almost always cheaper to surrender than to fight, and border populations are quite likely to have strong sympathies and antipathies. Showing the flag to them is as much a "we'll squish you if you defect as a polity" as it is "See, bad guys, we have ships THIS big and bad-ass!"

 

[Timerover51]

Hans: Look up (and read) Alfred Thayer Mahan's The Influence of Seapower Upon History. It's THE definitive text for naval strategy (but ignores tactics for the most part) and geopolitics, which is part of why it's part of US Naval Education for Naval Officers.

Mahan's theories are about the most relevant of the historical naval strategy and geopolitical texts there are.

Yes, Mahan's book is one of history least-known major works. Kaiser Wilhelm II made sure every one of his naval officers had a copy. And the basic concepts are still perfectly valid, although commerce raiding, his "guerre de course", is a bit more potent a strategy, given the difficulty of countering submarines and aircraft. With the communications lag in Traveller, it would have considerable application there as well.

I have a couple of copies.

 

[pendragonman]

It won't be a troop ship though. It will be several ships of varying sizes, configurations, and missions (to use the term loosely). A hospital ship (or section of same on some other ships). A barracks ship (though that term is a poor one for this case) of homes (stateroom suites) for dependents of the service personnel with recreational spaces, schools, shops, etc. (the "community"). And a few trades ships (not merchants, but skilled trades) to handle maintenance, repairs, fabrication and such for the fleet.

Kinda sorta like the (new) Battlestar Gallactica fleet?

 

[pendragonman]

Hans - if you don't see the relevance of geopolitical theory - namely, that terrain considerations make visible projection of force the primary political tool - then there's no point in discussing ANY of this with you.

Agreed. In fact, if he would read Mahan, he would realize that. However, I think he prefers being obtuse.

Fleets are NOT tools of defense. They're tools of politics. Defense is merely one of the methods of maintaining power. Projection of force, especially visible projection of force, is FAR more important to an empire.

In fact, power projection is THE raison d'etre for fleets. After all, what part of defense could not be better done with deep mason mounts on every asset someone would want to take? They would certainly be cheaper to maintain, and no need to worry about crew separation from family.