Are fleets too Large in Traveller

[mbrinkhues]

There would be simulators, it just makes no sense not to run maneuvers. Simulators are always limited and would be useless without maneuvers because that is what they model.

The problem is that in space at TL12+ there is a fully artificial and fully controlable environment. The ship you "see" is a sensor picture, gravity is controlled, air is controlled, everything is "not real". So there is no difference anymore. Today simulators are different because the "view" is still artificial (tank simulators), there is no acceleration feeling etc. Traveller does not have this problem.

 

[mbrinkhues]

MBrinkhues:

You keep making the claim that there is no weather in space. That's not exactly true. There are variations in radiation and particle flows, and occasionally, magnetic fields.

There are no rules for that in CT/MT/TNE/MgT so it seems that "natural space phenomena" can be ignored (or flown around) by Traveller ships. Radiation seems only a problem if it is man made and THAN it is something not done in training since it is potentially lethal

 

[Carlobrand]

One question is: How much training cruises do 3I ships need? Unlike naval ships there isno need to get used to stormy weather, spotting at night etc. The ship environments are fully artificial with sensors, controlled gravity etc. 80+ percent of training can be done with ships safely moored and all run through computers. Chances are the bigger ships never leave Depot and rarely leave the mooring maybe just one or two test jumps and life fires per year at most

You train the organization more than the ship. That lack of instantaneous communication and week spent in jump can potentially play havoc with the organization of fleets and their supports; your organization needs robust well-drilled procedures and contingencies to overcome those challenges.

For example, details of coordinating resources to make sure what you need arrives where you need it when you need it; that the supporting cargo ships and suchlike have a plan-B in case they arrive to find you've been forced to move on; that you have a plan-B if you've been forced to move abruptly before expected supplies, parts and replacement personnel arrive; that the scouts monitoring neighboring systems for signs of the enemy know where to deliver that information as you move about; that the couriers know where to find you to deliver whatever information or orders the rear bases might have; and so forth, and so forth.

You can only run so much of that through computers before you have to go out and check to see if your organization can actually do what the computer simulations suggest it can do.

 

[Dragoner]

The problem is that in space at TL12+ there is a fully artificial and fully controlable environment. The ship you "see" is a sensor picture, gravity is controlled, air is controlled, everything is "not real". So there is no difference anymore. Today simulators are different because the "view" is still artificial (tank simulators), there is no acceleration feeling etc. Traveller does not have this problem.

Except the fault in the logic is to say: "we don't need math, because we have calculators."

There is a need for both simulators and the actual maneuvers, both are training. Nothing is fully controlable, ever, and it is dealing with the chaos in the system that is what is some of the most important training.

 

[pendragonman]

Except the fault in the logic is to say: "we don't need math, because we have calculators."

There is a need for both simulators and the actual maneuvers, both are training. Nothing is fully controlable, ever, and it is dealing with the chaos in the system that is what is some of the most important training.

Exactly.

 

[rancke]

I can't speak for what ... Wil = Aramis? ... is arguing. From the reading, it sounds like the two of you are arguing extremes when the facts are likely somewhere in the middle.

Yes, I seem to have maneuvered myself into defending a position that is more extreme than I actually care for.

Remember that I was originally trying to refute a claim to the effect that the IN would need duplicate sets of battleships and cruisers because a one-year deployment to an Imperial fleet was a much too heavy burden to put on the members of the crews, having to spend a full year apart from their friends and relations. My opinion was, and is, that cruisers and battleships do not spend most of their time away from the base where they are stationed. But I do not think, as I appear to have given the impression that I do, that cruisers and battleships spend the entire year orbiting the capital.

The "reality", if you'll pardon that use in relation to a game, is somewhere between the two.

I use the same term myself to refer to the fictional reality that underlies the Traveller game in the same way that our real reality underlies a historical board- or war- or roleplaying game. The qoutation marks I use because the reality is fictional, but I believe that in theory that "reality" is every bit as complex as our reality and that consequently the game rules are every bit as simplified as rules for games based on our reality are.

(In practice, of course, 300 men writing for 30 years couldn't begin to make a dent in describing the OTU "reality" adequately.)

The fleet has to emerge for certain types of training exercises, perhaps for a couple months at a time in order to check its ability to coordinate with support ships and reveal any problems while there's time to solve them without getting shot at. Elements of the fleet - individual battlewagons and cruisers, with a couple of escorts and support ships - will also be off on specific show-the-flag missions; one major ship is more than enough for that kind of work, and cruisers are better for that role most of the time. A Fleet's admiral and his staff will certainly go out with his fleet on the fleet exercises; they're the ones giving the orders and trying to find out how effectively the fleet responds to them. Other stuff - probably not; there's plenty to do just keeping his fleet staffed and supplied.

Yes, that's how I see it too. Families of crewmembers who elect to move to the bases of the ships their spouses and siblings nad children are posted to would be able to see them at intervals of no more than a couple or three months.

While I do think that squadrons will need to exercise together, I think that such exercises will mostly take place in the system they're stationed in, perhaps a light-minute or two away from the traffic. In addition to that I can see divisions of each squadron to training trips to other systems in rotation, so that at least 3/4 of the squadron is at their station at any time.

A fleet at Rhylanor can take up to two months to reach Sword World space depending on refueling arrangements, thereby signaling quite clearly that the Imperium doesn't have any immediate plans for that fleet vis-a-vis the Sword Worlds. That same fleet moving up to Lanth is a clear signal of more immediate intentions, and therefore of more immediate concern.

But the fleet already stationed a Lanth[*] or Lunion could move against the Sword Worlds while elements of the 212th moved up to replace them (All coordinated by the Sector Admiralty, of course).

[*] Historical note: At the start of the 5FW there was no fleet stationed in the Lanth subsector; it was covered by the neighboring fleets. After the war one was stationed there.​

Hans

 

[mbrinkhues]

Except the fault in the logic is to say: "we don't need math, because we have calculators."

There is a need for both simulators and the actual maneuvers, both are training. Nothing is fully controlable, ever, and it is dealing with the chaos in the system that is what is some of the most important training.

I Look at stuff like post cold war Reforger and those where done mostly as simulations because sorting out FUBAR is a staff job not grunt work Ultimately it is IMTU und YMMV

 

[pendragonman]

I Look at stuff like post cold war Reforger and those where done mostly as simulations because sorting out FUBAR is a staff job not grunt work Ultimately it is IMTU und YMMV

Having actually BEEN part of Reforger, I can tell you we actually do drive tanks around and fire blank tank rounds (called simulators, trying not to confuse the issue). Actually driving the vehicles around causes things to crop up that no simulator (which is, when you boil it down to its programming, just an algorithm) can accurately predict.

 

[robject]

Yes, I seem to have maneuvered myself into defending a position that is more extreme than I actually care for.

Traveller discussions never cause polarization

[...] My opinion was, and is, that cruisers and battleships do not spend most of their time away from the base where they are stationed.

I'm fine with something along the lines of:

- A battle squadron typically spends 2/3 of its time at a designated home port.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Having actually BEEN part of Reforger, I can tell you we actually do drive tanks around and fire blank tank rounds (called simulators, trying not to confuse the issue). Actually driving the vehicles around causes things to crop up that no simulator (which is, when you boil it down to its programming, just an algorithm) can accurately predict.

WHEN have you been in a Reforger? Before 1990 or after? Cold war Reforgers where huge [Participated 87,88 and live in the region of all NORTHAG ones] but the later are staff exercises mostly and I explicitly referred to those

 

[Dragoner]

Ultimately it is IMTU und YMMV

Ok, Cheers.

Rob

 

[aramis]

Traveller discussions never cause polarization



I'm fine with something along the lines of:

- A battle squadron typically spends 2/3 of its time at a designated home port.

Even that is too high. Canon show the 3I FILLED with bubbling tensions... mostly world vs world, and world vs Megacorp. In such a situation, showing the flag is a highly valuable internal control... a reminder that excess intraimperial violence caries grave risks.

The geopolitical situation sorely limits interworld politics... and Big Brother Battleship reminds them that they are part of something bigger. Showing on what looks to be random patterns makes it clear you can't simply wait for them to go away.

With every system being essentially a group of islands... the navy is likely to spend as much as 75% to 90% of time aweigh. Much above 75%, and I'd expect dual crewing.

 

[rancke]

Even that is too high.

That's a matter of opinion.

Canon show the 3I FILLED with bubbling tensions... mostly world vs world, and world vs Megacorp.

Megacorporation vs. world we've seem a number of mercenary tickets about, or at least megacorporation vs. lightly-populated or medium-populated, medium-tech world and megacorporation vs. part of populous world. Also country vs. country. But world vs. world? I can't think of a single example, though no doubt my memory could be letting me down.

Filled is not unlikely, but that would be small-scale conflicts rather than world vs. world. What with selection bias and very limited sample, I don't think there is enough evidence to provide much evidence (either way) of world vs. world action. As long as all we have to go by is a handful of mercenary tickets, there's no way to know for sure, because we've only seem a small fraction of tickets and those are just not enough to form a coherent picture. But a member world blatantly attacking another is as likely as people using weapons of mass destruction. One of the things guaranteed to call down Imperial intervention. It does not seem to need any visits by Imperial task forces to keep member worlds from attacking each other.

In such a situation, showing the flag is a highly valuable internal control... a reminder that excess intraimperial violence caries grave risks.

I don't think it would be necessary. A friendly note from the resident Imperial Legate would do as much to warn a member world that it's stepping out of line.


Hans

 

[Ishmael]

Even that is too high. Canon show the 3I FILLED with bubbling tensions... mostly world vs world, and world vs Megacorp. In such a situation, showing the flag is a highly valuable internal control... a reminder that excess intraimperial violence caries grave risks.

The geopolitical situation sorely limits interworld politics... and Big Brother Battleship reminds them that they are part of something bigger. Showing on what looks to be random patterns makes it clear you can't simply wait for them to go away.

yay...
military support for Imperialism that allows the Imperial noble's cultural hegemony to exist.
Seriously though. Deciding what the IN's actual role in the Imperium actually is can help when imagining the fleets' stations and likely deployments. Obviously, not all of the fleets are deployed to protect from outsider aggression.

 

[aramis]

yay...
military support for Imperialism that allows the Imperial noble's cultural hegemony to exist.
Seriously though. Deciding what the IN's actual role in the Imperium actually is can help when imagining the fleets' stations and likely deployments. Obviously, not all of the fleets are deployed to protect from outsider aggression.

Without the Navy, the Imperium CANNOT exist, and the nobles as portrayed would shortly be executed and/or marginalized.

Likewise, keeping the navy both homogenized and moving is a great way to prevent fixation on local identity - which quite obviously is a very real problem. (Real world example: It's been noted that the Navy and Coast Guard had and have far fewer retention issues following assignments to Alaska than do the Army and Air Force... the Army and Air Force lost a significant percentage to attempts to stay in state.) In Canon, the 3I military does have at largest a domain level identity - the factions of the Shatter are several roughly domain sized or sector sized chunks.

 

[Carlobrand]

Even that is too high. Canon show the 3I FILLED with bubbling tensions... mostly world vs world, and world vs Megacorp. In such a situation, showing the flag is a highly valuable internal control... a reminder that excess intraimperial violence caries grave risks.

The geopolitical situation sorely limits interworld politics... and Big Brother Battleship reminds them that they are part of something bigger. Showing on what looks to be random patterns makes it clear you can't simply wait for them to go away.

With every system being essentially a group of islands... the navy is likely to spend as much as 75% to 90% of time aweigh. Much above 75%, and I'd expect dual crewing.

Might explain the reported prevalence of cruisers: more ships for the same buck, but big enough to be truly intimidating to most worlds. However, 75%'s a bit ambitious. With the claimed thousand-ships-per-sector, figure 3/4 of that for the Marches, even after accounting that a large fraction of that is destroyers, there are still enough ships there to set a capital ship over every single system if needed.

We know every little rock and pebble isn't a hotbed of intrigue. A third of them have populations no bigger than a small town; a Chrysanthemum would scare the willies out of them. Another third are too small to support so much as a single SDB; a P.F. Sloan and its missile bays would be enough to remind them of the value of loyalty. And, having the ships of the fleet - or even the constituent squadrons - scattered hither and yon when the brain-boys decided to start another frontier war does not sound like a recipe for effective defense.

I'd have said the cruisers spend roughly a third of their time out running show-the-flag missions, a third on fleet exercises and a third in-system doing maintenance and training, while the dreadnoughts spend the bulk of their time training in-system or on fleet exercises and only get tasked for very special missions - like picking up the body of an assassinated ambassador.

...I don't think it would be necessary. A friendly note from the resident Imperial Legate would do as much to warn a member world that it's stepping out of line. ...

Two words: Teddy Roosevelt. Soft words with big stick are ever so much more effective than soft words alone, and a cruiser in orbit over your city has a much bigger psychological impact than a cruiser four parsecs off, especially when it's less an issue of the local government and more an issue of the local malcontents and disaffected making trouble.

 

[rancke]

Might explain the reported prevalence of cruisers: more ships for the same buck, but big enough to be truly intimidating to most worlds. However, 75%'s a bit ambitious. With the claimed thousand-ships-per-sector, figure 3/4 of that for the Marches, even after accounting that a large fraction of that is destroyers, there are still enough ships there to set a capital ship over every single system if needed.

So we make an assumption that fits our purpose (of not having a capital ship stationed in every single system), namely that the PTB feel the need to have their combat vessels concentrated where they can be dispatched to meet serious threats at minimum notice and that for some reason they want most of their small fry ready to follow along (Though an unspecified percentage of the escorts are indeed used for patrols and pickets). Examples to the contrary (like the Tigresses in Five Sisters) we dismiss as atypical (essentially publicity stunts).

That's how I explain all those systems so conspiciously devoid of battleships and cruisers (Except those of the planetary navy, of course ).

We know every little rock and pebble isn't a hotbed of intrigue. A third of them have populations no bigger than a small town; a Chrysanthemum would scare the willies out of them. Another third are too small to support so much as a single SDB; a P.F. Sloan and its missile bays would be enough to remind them of the value of loyalty.

At the other end of the scale you have the worlds that you'd need the entire fleet along to intimidate and the ones where you'd better bring a couple of ofter fleets along for company. Don't orget that roughly 90% of the Imperium's military budget comes from population A worlds, that member worlds retain more than twice as much for their own military, and that a planetary navy don't have to spend half or three quarters of the budget on bases and logistics. Assuming they actually use their budget sensibly, a world like Trin or Mora can have a planetary defense stronger than an average Imperial fleet.

And, having the ships of the fleet - or even the constituent squadrons - scattered hither and yon when the brain-boys decided to start another frontier war does not sound like a recipe for effective defense.

Indeed not.

Two words: Teddy Roosevelt. Soft words with big stick are ever so much more effective than soft words alone, and a cruiser in orbit over your city has a much bigger psychological impact than a cruiser four parsecs off, especially when it's less an issue of the local government and more an issue of the local malcontents and disaffected making trouble.

But the local malcontents are not the Imperium's concern. We have several examples of worlds wracked by civil disorder or even civil war where the Imperium just looks on or at most lends a couple of brigades to the government. A ludicrously small token force for Efate. Feri has a civil war between nations who want to stay in the Imperium and nations that want to leave, and yet the Imperium allows the conflict to go on for a decade. Heya likewise is plagued by rebels yet don't have any Imperial help as far as we know.

[*] At least not in principle. I have no trouble imagining an Imperial duke being more actively interventionist, but it would depend on the duke.​

Apparently the Imperium doesn't swing into action until a new (or old) member world decides to secede in earnest.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

So we make an assumption that fits our purpose (of not having a capital ship stationed in every single system), namely that the PTB ...

PTB?

...feel the need to have their combat vessels concentrated where they can be dispatched to meet serious threats at minimum notice and that for some reason they want most of their small fry ready to follow along (Though an unspecified percentage of the escorts are indeed used for patrols and pickets). Examples to the contrary (like the Tigresses in Five Sisters) we dismiss as atypical (essentially publicity stunts).

I've always considered Tigress a special case in the first place. It costs as much as three Plankwells. For that you get a ship which is no less vulnerable to a meson spinal hit and 300 fighters that aren't much use in a fleet battle. 18 rolls on the damage table (Worst Rule Ever!) from a Zhodani dreadnought's Meson-S has a statistical probability of shattering the fuel tanks twice and yielding 6.5 crew hits, not to mention enough computer hits to completely take out your computer twice. That takes the Tigress out of the fight just as surely as it would a smaller battlewagon.

Given the ship's cost, vulnerability, and large number of fighters, I always thought Tigress' ideal deployment was individually, under circumstances in which it was less likely to have to face large numbers of spinal meson batteries. Individually, the ship is a fleet unto itself; those fighters aren't much good against naval warships but they're vicious as commerce raiders and effective against dirtside targets. Take along a transport with a battalion of Marines and a few escorts to protect the transport, and you've got a task force that would be quite intimidating for the worlds of Five Sisters.

...But the local malcontents are not the Imperium's concern. We have several examples of worlds wracked by civil disorder or even civil war where the Imperium just looks on or at most lends a couple of brigades to the government. A ludicrously small token force for Efate. Feri has a civil war between nations who want to stay in the Imperium and nations that want to leave, and yet the Imperium allows the conflict to go on for a decade. Heya likewise is plagued by rebels yet don't have any Imperial help as far as we know... Apparently the Imperium doesn't swing into action until a new (or old) member world decides to secede in earnest.

Good point.

 

[far-trader]

PTB = Powers That Be

 

[mike wightman]

So we make an assumption that fits our purpose (of not having a capital ship stationed in every single system), namely that the PTB feel the need to have their combat vessels concentrated where they can be dispatched to meet serious threats at minimum notice and that for some reason they want most of their small fry ready to follow along (Though an unspecified percentage of the escorts are indeed used for patrols and pickets). Examples to the contrary (like the Tigresses in Five Sisters) we dismiss as atypical (essentially publicity stunts).

What about the batron of kokirraks that is routinely assigned as individual ships?

From the text it could be argued that these are the trainers while the bulk of the fleet does stay at their assigned port..

The Kokirrak class dreadnaught is one of the more
common classes of capital ships in service in the Spinward Marches; a total of four BatRons of this type serve on permanent station, with harbor assignments at Rhylanor, Regina, Jewell, and Mora. Generally, one squadron of Kokirraks is dispersed into independent ships with ancillary escorts. On patrol, the ships com- bine training operations with routine patrols and reaction operations.

At the other end of the scale you have the worlds that you'd need the entire fleet along to intimidate and the ones where you'd better bring a couple of ofter fleets along for company. Don't orget that roughly 90% of the Imperium's military budget comes from population A worlds, that member worlds retain more than twice as much for their own military, and that a planetary navy don't have to spend half or three quarters of the budget on bases and logistics. Assuming they actually use their budget sensibly, a world like Trin or Mora can have a planetary defense stronger than an average Imperial fleet.

Which is why it is a good idea to base a fleet at Trin, Mora etc. - you are intimidating these powerhouse worlds that could pose a threat to Imperial authority if they chose independence.

But the local malcontents are not the Imperium's concern. We have several examples of worlds wracked by civil disorder or even civil war where the Imperium just looks on or at most lends a couple of brigades to the government. A ludicrously small token force for Efate. Feri has a civil war between nations who want to stay in the Imperium and nations that want to leave, and yet the Imperium allows the conflict to go on for a decade. Heya likewise is plagued by rebels yet don't have any Imperial help as far as we know.

[*] At least not in principle. I have no trouble imagining an Imperial duke being more actively interventionist, but it would depend on the duke.​

Apparently the Imperium doesn't swing into action until a new (or old) member world decides to secede in earnest.


Hans

That's because the megacorps are making so much money off both sides in these conflicst

If a world does pull out of the Imperium the megacorp stands to lose a lot of money hence the Imperium acts...