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Are fleets too Large in Traveller

I've always considered Tigress a special case in the first place. It costs as much as three Plankwells. For that you get a ship which is no less vulnerable to a meson spinal hit and 300 fighters that aren't much use in a fleet battle. 18 rolls on the damage table (Worst Rule Ever!) from a Zhodani dreadnought's Meson-S has a statistical probability of shattering the fuel tanks twice and yielding 6.5 crew hits, not to mention enough computer hits to completely take out your computer twice. That takes the Tigress out of the fight just as surely as it would a smaller battlewagon.

But Tigresses are no more a special case in that regard than any battleship. A Plankwell cost as much as three heavy cruisers. For that you get a ship that is no less vulnerable to a meson spinal hit.

The thing to remember is that "real" battles are not fought by HG combat rules. If a set of combat rules produce inexplicable results, it's the rules that fail to reflect "reality", not "reality" that is inconsistent.

A Tigress may not "really" be worth three Plankwells. There ARE other reasons than combat effectiveness to build a few oversized ships (but the Imperium has built 160 or more Tigresses (one squadron per sector) -- more than 'a few'), but if a quarter of the Imperium's combat vessels are battleships (I'm assuming a BatRon:CruRon ratio of 1:3), they're more than overly expensive cruisers. If the combat rules don't reflect that, the combat rules are stuffed.


Hans
 
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Hans:

The "Reality" of CT is that HG is the definition of the reality... The Tigress has to make sense in some other way, because the goodies aboard are defined almost exclusively in HG terms, and the Tigress makes little sense under HG. Then again, reality has had BB's that were too big for the way naval battles work out, too... driven by politics rather than combat.

I realize you don't use any of the published Traveller rules sets - but the rules define the universe for the characters, and thus for most players.
 
Hans:

The "Reality" of CT is that HG is the definition of the reality...

Wil, I know you believe that, though I can't figure out why, but you're wrong. The rules are NEVER the definition of reality, as is clearly demonstrated every time old rules are amended or new rules are added.

Come to that, Rule Number 0 expressly states that the printed rules are not the definition of reality since the referee is free to amend them any way he wants.


Hans
 
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Wil, I know you believe that, though I can't figure out why, but you're wrong. The rules are NEVER the definition of reality, as is clearly demonstrated every time old rules are amended or new rules are added.

Come to that, Rule Number 0 expressly states that the printed rules are not the definition of reality since the referee is free to amend them any way he wants.


Hans

Wrong, Hans - it means that every amendment is a separate universe. So dead wrong it makes discussion of canon with you practically pointless...

For purposes of understanding CT canon - HG defines how ships behave. Your rejection of rules is a form of blindness. This is because most of the CT setting is defined as rules, not as prose description.

The Rules and setting are interlinked. By NOT using the rules, you have created for yourself a parallel universe - one which isn't the OTU of CT, because things don't work as they do in CT.

I've met 12 year olds who get that changing the rules means running in a different universe; I don't have a clue why you're blind to this.
 
Well, actually HG defines (at best) ONE of the Traveller "realities". Since this is the "general" forum one might argue with TNE/Brilliant Lances/Battle Rider just as well
 
Well, actually HG defines (at best) ONE of the Traveller "realities". Since this is the "general" forum one might argue with TNE/Brilliant Lances/Battle Rider just as well

Since you can't build the classic ships under TNE, it's clearly an alternate universe.
 
Aarmis I always thought you were pretty moderat on the issue of canon. Do you think T5 set in 1111 is not the same universe as CT in 1111? If I had to choice between Traveller rules or Traveller Background I would take the background any day. We can change the rules and still be in the Imperium but can you change the Imperium and still be in Traveller? Players who dislike TNE or T4 setting would argue that the feel just isnt there.

Since I started this thread I would rather disavow FF5 game as canon for the RPG. To me it allows me to reduce the fleet sizes. Does it change the economics as Hans claims? Only if I am playing in Hans universe. Thats the brillent part about games we can use rules and background as we wish. I ll always support a small/medium ship small fleet universe its more playable to me.
 
I guess that I fail to see a requirement that I absolutely must use every supplement put out in my Traveller universe. I have both versions of High Guard, and I do not use either one. I have Striker. Do I use it, no. Does that mean that I am not playing Traveller? As I see it, as the universe creator for my players, I can pick and choose what to use. I prefer a small ship universe. So, traders and gunboats are in, Tigresse and Azhanti High Lightning are out. If that means someone thinks that I am being heretical with respect to canon, so be it.
 
I have recently begun to see that Aramis has become more of a strict constructionist when it comes to canon. By that I mean he has come to the interpretation of "if it ain't strictly in black and white print, it ain't canon."
 
Aarmis I always thought you were pretty moderat on the issue of canon. Do you think T5 set in 1111 is not the same universe as CT in 1111? If I had to choice between Traveller rules or Traveller Background I would take the background any day. We can change the rules and still be in the Imperium but can you change the Imperium and still be in Traveller? Players who dislike TNE or T4 setting would argue that the feel just isnt there.

Since I started this thread I would rather disavow FF5 game as canon for the RPG. To me it allows me to reduce the fleet sizes. Does it change the economics as Hans claims? Only if I am playing in Hans universe. Thats the brillent part about games we can use rules and background as we wish. I ll always support a small/medium ship small fleet universe its more playable to me.

No, I don't see CT and T5 as the same setting when the Jump and Ship mechanics are as different as they are... but generally, they are close enough for the history to be pretty much the same. In the same way, TNE and T4 can't be the same universe, as the ship rules produce wildly different results... and since those items can't be checked against the real world, they can't be "wrong" in the same way that, say, throwing rules can... And to be blunt, CT really isn't defined by the text. Much of the setting is inferred from the rules.

For that which doesn't exist in the real world, the game rules have to be the definitive statement.

And, yes, I tend to be a rules-lawyer as a player.
 
Aarmis I always thought you were pretty moderat on the issue of canon. Do you think T5 set in 1111 is not the same universe as CT in 1111? If I had to choice between Traveller rules or Traveller Background I would take the background any day. We can change the rules and still be in the Imperium but can you change the Imperium and still be in Traveller? Players who dislike TNE or T4 setting would argue that the feel just isnt there.
There is no OTU.

Or at least, there is no self consistent version of an OTU.

The designers used the setting as a sandbox and changed whole paradigms at a whim, or rather when they wanted to have a setting for their new rules to be used.

Put another way, they didn't design a setting and then think "right, lets make rules to model the setting". They made up rules and then tagged on a briefly described setting.

The changing ship paradigms are the most obvious, every edition of the game changed something:

1st edition small ship universe, revised edition small ship universe with a juxtaposition of large ships from the High Guard paradigm, MT with its High Guard large ship universe and lower jump fuel/incorrect jump fuel per jump usage, TNE HEPlaR, T4 a bastardisation of the lot trying to claim it could all exist at one time or another.

Change the way the ship tech works and you have changed the paradigm of your game universe - Aramis is correct, there are lots of ATUs some of which are official. Perhaps a better term would be AOTU or OATU?



Since I started this thread I would rather disavow FF5 game as canon for the RPG. To me it allows me to reduce the fleet sizes. Does it change the economics as Hans claims? Only if I am playing in Hans universe. Thats the brillent part about games we can use rules and background as we wish. I ll always support a small/medium ship small fleet universe its more playable to me.
You are free to do that, the canon police are not going to do a Minority Report home invasion on you ;)

But the FFW game was intended by the designers to be very much part of the Traveller OTU and rpg.

I'm actually like you, I prefer a small ship universe for roleplaying, but I need a regular fix of High Guard and strategic level wargaming in the OTU too ;)
 
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I guess that I fail to see a requirement that I absolutely must use every supplement put out in my Traveller universe. I have both versions of High Guard, and I do not use either one. I have Striker. Do I use it, no. Does that mean that I am not playing Traveller? As I see it, as the universe creator for my players, I can pick and choose what to use. I prefer a small ship universe. So, traders and gunboats are in, Tigresse and Azhanti High Lightning are out. If that means someone thinks that I am being heretical with respect to canon, so be it.
One of the often repeated rules is that the referee is free to do what they like - it is your game after all.
 
I have recently begun to see that Aramis has become more of a strict constructionist when it comes to canon. By that I mean he has come to the interpretation of "if it ain't strictly in black and white print, it ain't canon."
Lol, so canon that isn't in black and white written down can be found where?

By definition canon has to be written down.

The problem with Traveller canon is that it changes by game edition. The usual rule in such cases would be last published trumps previous, but if that's the case until T5 is released we are stuck using T4 ;)
 
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Lol, so canon that isn't in black and white written down can be found where?

By definition canon has to be written down.

The problem with Traveller canon is that it changes by game edition. The usual rule in such cases would be last published trumps previous, but if that's the case until T5 is released we are stuck using T4 ;)

Actually Mongoose since they are the current licence holder
 
Wrong, Hans - it means that every amendment is a separate universe. So dead wrong it makes discussion of canon with you practically pointless...

Your view that different versions of Traveller describe separate universes makes discussion of canon pointless. The only value canon has is preventing, as best possible, the fragmentation of our common frame of reference and the preservation of as much self-consistency as can be achieved when scores and hundreds of people works on a shared universe. It's all very well to argue that there must be an explanation for the existence of battleships even though the combat system makes them, credit for credit, profoundly inferior to heavy cruisers. But if you can't come up with an explanation that works, its pointless to insist that there MUST be one.

For purposes of understanding CT canon - HG defines how ships behave. Your rejection of rules is a form of blindness. This is because most of the CT setting is defined as rules, not as prose description.

I'm not trying to understand CT canon per se. I'm trying to promote a comprehensive and self-consistent game universe where I'm on the same page with other fans who are trying for the same thing. That does involve understanding CT canon as far as it can be understood, but it's only a means to an end, not an end in itself.

I don't reject rules blindly. I only reject them when they mess up a self-consistent setting. Even then, I'm perfectly fine with most rules, as long as they are taken for what they are, a game artifact for the purpose of making it possible to run a game in a setting much too complex to emulate with any rules simple enough to be playable.

Most of the official game universe is defined by the setting material, and the setting material describes a universe every bit as complex as the real one we live in. The rules only describe a tiny fraction of the setting -- a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction. It's perfectly ludicrous to claim that the rules define the setting. At best they describe it (a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of it), at worst they contradict certain aspects of it for the sake of playability.

Even when the rules reflect the setting accurately they still don't define it, they describe it.

Imagine a rule to emulate throwing a coin: "When a character tosses a coin, roll a die. On a 1-3 the result is heads, on a 4-6 the result is tails." This rule reflects the tossing of a coin pretty adequately. If you ignore the possibility that the coin tosser has the skill to affect the normal fifty-fifty odds of the outcome, the rule will emulate the result of a coin toss perfectly. It couldn't be any more true to the setting. But it doesn't define the nature of tossing a coin, it describes it.

The Rules and setting are interlinked.

Of course they are. The rules are supposed to emulate selected aspects of the setting in a way that is simple enough to run a game where those aspects are important.

By NOT using the rules, you have created for yourself a parallel universe - one which isn't the OTU of CT, because things don't work as they do in CT.

There is no such thing as the OTU of CT. There used to be, but that was a long time ago. And the rules I use are irrelevant to the current OTU. Any setting can be emulated using multiple different rules sets.

I've met 12 year olds who get that changing the rules means running in a different universe; I don't have a clue why you're blind to this.

Because you and the 12 year olds are wrong about that. And I can't fathom how you can possibly believe in a setting where starship combat is fought in 20 minute intervals, weapon accuracies improve or worsen drastically as a ship moves a meter from one range band to another, people die in neat fractions of the total crew complement, 30 fighters attacking in concert either all hit or all miss, etc. etc.. Such a belief is completely incomprehensible to me.


Hans
 
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I have recently begun to see that Aramis has become more of a strict constructionist when it comes to canon. By that I mean he has come to the interpretation of "if it ain't strictly in black and white print, it ain't canon."

I disagree with him about how to interpret some of canon, but of course it's not canon if it isn't down in black and while, and in an official publication that has not been disavowed later.


Hans
 
Since I started this thread I would rather disavow FF5 game as canon for the RPG. To me it allows me to reduce the fleet sizes. Does it change the economics as Hans claims? Only if I am playing in Hans universe. Thats the brilliant part about games we can use rules and background as we wish. I ll always support a small/medium ship small fleet universe its more playable to me.

It changes the economics in any universe. When you change one part of an equation, you automatically and unavoidably change another part of it too. If you want to change one thing without changing anything else, you have to deliberately close your eyes to the logical ramifications.

Not that there's anything wrong with that unless you want to retain a measure of believability in your universe. It's not like the OTU doesn't have its own share of those logical disconnects. Saying "That's how it is and I don't want to hear any more about it" is a perfectly viable way to run a campaign.


Hans
 
There is no OTU.

Or at least, there is no self consistent version of an OTU.

Those are two profoundly different statements.

A self-consistent OTU that works well as a game setting is a goal worth working towards, not an accomplished achievement.

Change the way the ship tech works and you have changed the paradigm of your game universe - Aramis is correct, there are lots of ATUs some of which are official. Perhaps a better term would be AOTU or OATU?

And by making those changes you have changed the OTU as well. It's a different universe now, but it's still the OTU. It just means that the parts of the old material that were changed no longer applies to the OTU. But that doesn't mean that the part of the old material that wasn't changed doesn't still apply. Sure, back in the days when TNE was the current rules set, the OTU was a profoundly different place. But TNE is not the current rules any more, so what difference does it make today?

Furthermore, Marc Miller insists that the history of various Traveller versions are all still part of the OTU. To make that work one either has to imagine a setting where the Cosmic Axis shifts every once in a while to introduce new physical laws (retroactively) or you have to imagine a self-consistent setting where each of the Traveller versions are wrong about various details. (A jump-2 requires 20% of volume fuel, not 15%, it never did require 15%, not even between 1117 and 1130, and it never will require 15%. Ships use thrusters and not fusion torches or HePLaR, they always did and they always will, even in 1202. A streamlined ship has the same internal volume as an unstreamlined ship of the same volume. It always did and it always will, even in the GTU. Etc. etc.).

I know which of those two solutions I prefer.


Hans
 
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