Arming civilian ships

[Brandon C]

The view on this depnds on the ruleset, apparently. For example, in the original Traveller 2300 boxed set:

Referee's Manual, Star Travel, Arming Your Ship (p.21):

"The end of the starship listings gives several examples of lasers and particle weapons. Any of these can be placed on a ship and are readily available at any space facility on the frontier."

And the errata sheet in the box:

"The LL-98 is the standard armament of the French naval and merchant vessels."

(It takes 3 tasks (Drive Engineering, Mechanics, Electronics) and about 40 hours to install a weapon. TTAs and UTES did not exist at this time in the rules.)

These seem to fairly definitively imply that civilian ships, especially on the frontier, can be armed, presumably without being immediately destroyed as suspected pirates.

in Ships of the French Arm, the Metal-class freighter mounts a laser and the BC-4 a submunition launcher, although the later was probably due to the Kafer War. The color text indicates that some Faidi-class couriers are armed, but it's not stated if these are commercial or government vessels.Many Hamid-class survey ships were fitted with twin submunition dispensers after the Kafer War started; it's not clear if the ships are operated by the German government or German commercial/academic interests.

The situation in Mongoose 2300 is somewhat different.

Core Rules (p.211):

"Weapons are not as common on civilian ships as they are in Traveller and tend to be quite low-powered."

Only one non-military ship in the Core Rules and SotFA is armed -- the BC-4, but with a PDC instead of submunition. It says in the ship's description:

"The model show, for example, has mounted on it a PDC-17 point defense system. More capable weapons systems are generally illegal for civilian vessels."

So ...

Which way do you go in arming civilian ships?

 

[mike wightman]

If there is ever a conflict between the original rules and the Mongoose interpretation I always go with the original rules.

 

[Brandon C]

If there is ever a conflict between the original rules and the Mongoose interpretation I always go with the original rules.

One thing that makes this easier to do in Mongoose 2300 is starship weapons older than Old Military. New Military is TL12 and Old Military is TL11, but there are a very small number of weapons at TL9-10 that are the most likely armament for civilian ships. Toss in the Old Military point defense cluster (which has limited offensive capability).

 

[epicenter00]

I lean towards the "unarmed ship" universe in 2300 and leave the "Car Wars universe" of armed civilian ships to Traveller Third Imperium (the TU) where to me it makes a bit more sense historically to have armed ships. In 2300, crews may carry small arms and exploration ships might have remote-control turrets with small arms to deal with possible alien wildlife threats, but the ships themselves I doubt would be armed with starship-scale weaponry. I understand this is not as thrilling for players who love to have weapons on everything, but I do feel that civilian ships armed with starship-scale weaponry is quite rare simply because there's nothing that the level of armament would be effective against.

Armed ships in 2300, even in the original rules, don't make much sense to me, mechanically or within the universe. Third-party writers loved the idea of armed ships, and I think GDW wasn't really sure of the nature of 2300 when they first wrote the universe. Similar to original Traveller, as time went on the writers began to define the 2300 universe more. Here's why I don't think there's much in the way of armed civilian starships in 2300:

* There's no mention of pirates. Pirates don't really make much sense in the original rules; there was a strong sense that starships simply aren't as common as they are in the TU. Privateers, yes, but pirates? I don't think there's enough loose ships lying around nor enough "anonymous" inhabited worlds with no questions asked berthing policies for the pirates to hide at. In this respect, it is much like the modern day - most civilian ships are not armed; you occasionally see it around Somalia or Strait of Malacca but even then there's no civilian ship armed with a surplus 5" destroyer turret, it's mostly armed mercenaries with small arms, water guns, barbed wire, and so on.

* Ships of the French Arm (old 2300 version) had some mention of armed ships, but I have always felt the odd weapon or two on most 2300 ships are completely ineffective. Okay, I understand a lot of arming of ships is to improve the morale of the crew, but arming a 2300 civilian freighter feels very much like putting a small-bore cannon or two on freighter during WW1 or WW2; yes, it happened but that's because those weapons were conceivably effective against submarines which sometimes (often?) surfaced to use their deck gun to shell merchant ships - the weak popguns on merchants, if they scored a hit, could prevent the submarine from submerging (a death sentence). In 2300, you have a similar popgun, but no submarines. It's particularly bad when you see how 2300 civilian hulls were being armed, supposedly against Kafers. Seriously? That akin to arming those WW1 and WW2 popgun merchants to chase off a commerce raiding cruiser or battlecruiser. It might be okay in discouraging attacks from a Kafer fighter or two, but there's little that suggests the Kafers send fighters out on long-range commerce-raiding - against something like a Beta BC (or a Suffren or Tunghu for that matter) those guns are going to do nothing at all.

* There was some talk of arming the Bayern as it went streaking off into the unknown. However, it was not armed for philosophical reasons as well the idea that anything dangerous out there would not be dissuaded by a few popguns. I feel this opinion tells you a lot about how people feel in 2300: It's not "of course we should arm a ship going off into the unknown" - there's actual debate because many feel it simply isn't necessary.

 

[Brandon C]

* There's no mention of pirates. Pirates don't really make much sense in the original rules; there was a strong sense that starships simply aren't as common as they are in the TU. Privateers, yes, but pirates? I don't think there's enough loose ships lying around nor enough "anonymous" inhabited worlds with no questions asked berthing policies for the pirates to hide at. In this respect, it is much like the modern day - most civilian ships are not armed; you occasionally see it around Somalia or Strait of Malacca but even then there's no civilian ship armed with a surplus 5" destroyer turret, it's mostly armed mercenaries with small arms, water guns, barbed wire, and so on.

A quick scan of Traveller 2300, which has a couple of references friendly to arming civilian ships, turned up no references to pirates. OTOH, Mongoose 2300, which is less friendly to armed civilian ships, has multiple references to pirates.

* Ships of the French Arm (old 2300 version) had some mention of armed ships, but I have always felt the odd weapon or two on most 2300 ships are completely ineffective.

A lot of this is the poor selection of kafer ships. You had battleships and you had fighters (the kafer sourcebook only had battleships).

I think it can be argued, if your view is correct, is that there is no justification for ship combat rules as part of the RPG. The character creation system does not generate active duty naval characters and if civilian ships are unarmed, the GM and players have no need for such rules.

 

[mike wightman]

My only criticism for T2300/2300AD was the focus on the French Arm and the Kafer war.
We have scant details on the American Arm and the Chinese Arm, and yet the setting gems of the Xiang, Eber and provolutionists are to be found there.
Are civilian ships routinely armed in space where provolutionists operate, how about piracy on the Chinese arm?
On the plus side I can make this stuff up for myself.

 

[Brandon C]

My only criticism for T2300/2300AD was the focus on the French Arm and the Kafer war.

You did have the Colonial Atlas, which covered a roughly equal number of worlds in the French and Chinese Arms, with just under a half dozen in the American Arm (Mongoose 2300 covers these worlds in the core book). The Ranger sourcebook was also useful, detailing another Chinese Arm world.

 

[McPerth]

One thing that makes this easier to do in Mongoose 2300 is starship weapons older than Old Military. New Military is TL12 and Old Military is TL11, but there are a very small number of weapons at TL9-10 that are the most likely armament for civilian ships. Toss in the Old Military point defense cluster (which has limited offensive capability).

See that in MgT 2300AD you need a PP of higher rate than your stutterwarp in order to use energy weapons or active sensors. Otherwise your speed is reduced by 25% (what makes you a sitting duck for most merchant ships).

So, to arm your ship with anything other than missiles or submunitions (that are expensive to use and I guess would require some permits, as they are nukes), you shuld wither improve your PP (and that's a major refit, as it also needs to enlarge your radiators) or reduce your speed.

* There's no mention of pirates. Pirates don't really make much sense in the original rules; there was a strong sense that starships simply aren't as common as they are in the TU. Privateers, yes, but pirates? I don't think there's enough loose ships lying around nor enough "anonymous" inhabited worlds with no questions asked berthing policies for the pirates to hide at. In this respect, it is much like the modern day - most civilian ships are not armed; you occasionally see it around Somalia or Strait of Malacca but even then there's no civilian ship armed with a surplus 5" destroyer turret, it's mostly armed mercenaries with small arms, water guns, barbed wire, and so on.

There are some mentions in several Challenge articles:

• The sweet trade in Space: piracy (issue #41)
• Catch & Carry team (issue #45)
• SAMN (relating more to efforts to fight it, Issue #56)

And maybe others I cannot remember about right now...

Even thougn, I agree with you, that's an ocasional event, and situation is more like nowdays than the Age of Sail printed in OTU, and armed merchants would be the exception rather than the rule, and probably need some permits.

I agree though, that most piracy events would be on the American or Chinese arms, as the French one is too militarized to allow place for it (even before Kafer invasion), but I guess they were expected to be more developed if the game had been kept in print for longer.

OTOH this gives more free hand to the referee to develop them...

As for the arming merchants shown in SotFA, the one appearing (IIRC) has a submunitions dispenser, that could help to cover a withdrawal from a raider (I guess the Kafers have small ships for this, even if not depicted in the game), and, of course, give some morale boost to crew, but I agree they will be good for little else.

 

[kilemall]

I would be thinking that grand sail tradition, letters of marque, for 'allowing' a ship to be armed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_marque

Special fun? Subsidized reserve, and if war or piracy, off it goes, often to an expendable end.

 

[whartung]

See that in MgT 2300AD you need a PP of higher rate than your stutterwarp in order to use energy weapons or active sensors. Otherwise your speed is reduced by 25% (what makes you a sitting duck for most merchant ships).

But historically, Merchant Ships ARE sitting ducks. For most traders, when deciding where to put money in to the ship, between the "carry more" and "carry it faster" columns, "more" almost always wins.

Considering the Alaskan Crab Fleet, those boats run at, like, 8 knots. And one of the boats recently refurbished much of the boat, including new motors, and what not, and they weren't crowing about how they were now going to be able to go that much faster. If anything, I imagine, they were hoping for their old speed at better efficiency to save fuel costs.

Modern sea going military vessels are really, pretty darn fast. Not jet fighter fast, not "hydro foil across the harbor ferry" fast, but, especially in contrast to most anything else floating -- pretty darn fast.

It always seemed to me that the space fleet of 2300 was much more commercial, and civilized, than the Traveller universe.

 

[Brandon C]

But historically, Merchant Ships ARE sitting ducks. For most traders, when deciding where to put money in to the ship, between the "carry more" and "carry it faster" columns, "more" almost always wins.

There are really only two types of ships an armed merchant has any chance against: one or two fighters or a merchant converted to piracy. The first will always be faster than the armed merchant and the second may be faster. Any other armed ship should eat the armed merchant alive.

 

[McPerth]

While reviewing your 100 dton Alvarez class I found in the rules this, that can be relevant (page 212, under weapons):

Most nations in 2300AD forbid the ownership of starship weapons by civilians. It is possible for a civilian to get a license to carry starship weapons but the fees and inspections cost Lv50,000 per year. This license does not extend to bombpumped weapons like missiles and submunitons. These are always grossly illegal.

While this makes sense, as 2300AD Earth has the background of a bad experience with nukes (the twilight war) and is likely not to want them on uncontrolled hands, this is quite in contradiction with classic 2300AD SotFA, specifically the BC4 Cargo Carrier (page 60), both in image and text:

Recently, some owners of BC-4 ships have mounted weapons systems on them for protection on the far frontiers. The model shown, for example, has mounted on it an American "Big Clip" exterior submunition dispenser

(bold is mine)

Of course, when you couple this with the needing to upgrade the PP to have energy weapons, you'll understand few commercial ships (if any) will be armed (Q-ships and other auxiliares, incluiding privaters, are entirely another thing).

 

[epicenter00]

It always seemed to me that the space fleet of 2300 was much more commercial, and civilized, than the Traveller universe.

Pretty much this. As part of the "harder" sci-fi feel of 2300, I just feel that "pirates" in the sense of Traveller don't (and shouldn't) exist in 2300, no more than they do today. Without pirates, the reason why you'd arm your ship largely vanishes - it's just safer for everyone involved when the number of weapons is strictly limited to those who are trained to use them and have the oversight to ensure they just don't go blasting each other on a whim.

(TBH, pirates shouldn't exist in Traveller either - there's a 30+ year argument that has gone in Traveller about piracy in that universe that basically boils down to "pirates are cool and they're in the background, so they should exist" vs. "if you derive the 'reality' of Traveller by its rules, there's no way that piracy is viable so pirates can't exist.")

The same thing pretty much happens in 2300 due to the nature of Stutterwarp. The distance covered by a jump is so huge once your Stutterwarp drive effectively is moving you faster than light that interception isn't possible. You can only do interception once your Stutterwarp efficiency drops under light speed, which is so close to your destination world that the local defenses should either be able to protect you or at least the local authorities should be able to get detailed information about the pirates.

I think it can be argued, if your view is correct, is that there is no justification for ship combat rules as part of the RPG.

I'd actually say the starship combat rules were put in as a completeness thing to cover that situation where there is starship combat.

To be honest, I don't think there's ever been a good starship combat system suited for a role-playing game that's been published, ever. Plenty of systems that are pretty passable as wargames, but a RPG? No.

 

[mike wightman]

Pretty much this. As part of the "harder" sci-fi feel of 2300, I just feel that "pirates" in the sense of Traveller don't (and shouldn't) exist in 2300, no more than they do today.

You mean the piracy that is the major threat to shipping in many of the sea lanes today?
Some wiki links are a bit enlightening and can easily be adapted to T2300:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_the_21st_century
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_the_Gulf_of_Guinea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_the_Strait_of_Malacca

(TBH, pirates shouldn't exist in Traveller either - there's a 30+ year argument that has gone in Traveller about piracy in that universe that basically boils down to "pirates are cool and they're in the background, so they should exist" vs. "if you derive the 'reality' of Traveller by its rules, there's no way that piracy is viable so pirates can't exist.")

The real reasons piracy exists in the OTU 3I:
tradewars, rivalry between subsector dukes, raiders from beyond the Imperial borders, interplanetary rivalry, ethically challenge merchants, an IN that can not be everywhere at once.

The same thing pretty much happens in 2300 due to the nature of Stutterwarp. The distance covered by a jump is so huge once your Stutterwarp drive effectively is moving you faster than light that interception isn't possible. You can only do interception once your Stutterwarp efficiency drops under light speed, which is so close to your destination world that the local defenses should either be able to protect you or at least the local authorities should be able to get detailed information about the pirates.

The threshold for sublight travel is several AU from a major gravity well, at that distance the warp efficiency is AUs per hour rather than light years per hour, as you get closer it drops again. A stutterwarp ship slowing to sublight it an easy find because of the rest of the hard science - it needs radiators to dump heat and glows in the dark.

I'd actually say the starship combat rules were put in as a completeness thing to cover that situation where there is starship combat.

Yup, it's a very poor science fiction game that includes space ships to not include rules for them shooting at each other since it is such a staple of science fiction.

To be honest, I don't think there's ever been a good starship combat system suited for a role-playing game that's been published, ever. Plenty of systems that are pretty passable as wargames, but a RPG? No.

Off the top of my head I can think of several:
FASA Star Trek, Coriolis, Stars without Number, Diaspora, Trinity, even the ship's boat skill in CT is a pretty good rpg ship combat resolution system. The trick is to have rules that allows all the players to have their characters doing something and not have to resort to a boardgame/wargame.

 

[Brandon C]

As part of the "harder" sci-fi feel of 2300, I just feel that "pirates" in the sense of Traveller don't (and shouldn't) exist in 2300, no more than they do today.

As Mike points out, pirates do exist today, and they got a resurgence after the end of the Cold War (it became less likely a warship would stumble on to them).

They also normally rely on a contact a the port to tip them off as to what ship's are carrying valuable but portable cargoes, the destination and possible route of ship, and most required info on the ship (best speed, crew size, etc).

it's just safer for everyone involved when the number of weapons is strictly limited to those who are trained to use them and have the oversight to ensure they just don't go blasting each other on a whim.

You do know that there are some governments that shouldn't have armed warships, right?

The same thing pretty much happens in 2300 due to the nature of Stutterwarp. The distance covered by a jump is so huge once your Stutterwarp drive effectively is moving you faster than light that interception isn't possible.

You don't have to intercept at FTL speeds between systems. If the pirate ship has a higher warp efficiency, it can run down and pass the merchant, arriving in the destination system before the target.

You can't do this in Traveller

You can only do interception once your Stutterwarp efficiency drops under light speed, which is so close to your destination world that the local defenses should either be able to protect you or at least the local authorities should be able to get detailed information about the pirates.

As an example, stutterwarp drops from FTL to STL at the asteroid belt. With destination likely Earth, that gives the pirate about 2.2 to 3.2 AU to intercept.

To be honest, I don't think there's ever been a good starship combat system suited for a role-playing game that's been published, ever. Plenty of systems that are pretty passable as wargames, but a RPG? No.

The original d6 Star Wars rules.

 

[Brandon C]

While reviewing your 100 dton Alvarez class I found in the rules this, that can be relevant (page 212, under weapons):

While this makes sense, as 2300AD Earth has the background of a bad experience with nukes (the twilight war) and is likely not to want them on uncontrolled hands, this is quite in contradiction with classic 2300AD SotFA, specifically the BC4 Cargo Carrier (page 60), both in image and text:

Ironically, more civilian ships in Mongoose SotFA are armed than in GDW SotFA:

BC-4 cargo carrier (p.110): Mounts a single PDC-17. No TTA, so it can only be used in defensive fire.

Dalton-class mining tender (p.185): This mounts two LL-98's in gun towers and has two TTAs. It is not noted if these are mining lasers (unlikely given the rest of the design) or intended to deter thieves in a ship.

Azanian mining boat (p.193): This mounts a LL-98 laser as a mining laser, but inexplicably also mounts a TTA (in a 30 ton hull). For mining, I really doubt a laser needs a military fire control system. The text does note the boat can be used as a very slow fighter.

BC-7 robot caro carrier (p.202): the color text notes that some are armed wit one PDC-17.

Of course, when you couple this with the needing to upgrade the PP to have energy weapons, you'll understand few commercial ships (if any) will be armed (Q-ships and other auxiliares, incluiding privaters, are entirely another thing).

If a pirate ship has enough of a speed advantage to catch your merchant, you don't lose much by trading speed for offense capability.

 

[epicenter00]

You mean the piracy that is the major threat to shipping in many of the sea lanes today?
Some wiki links are a bit enlightening and can easily be adapted to T2300:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_the_21st_century
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_the_Gulf_of_Guinea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_the_Strait_of_Malacca

As Mike points out, pirates do exist today, and they got a resurgence after the end of the Cold War (it became less likely a warship would stumble on to them).

They also normally rely on a contact a the port to tip them off as to what ship's are carrying valuable but portable cargoes, the destination and possible route of ship, and most required info on the ship (best speed, crew size, etc).

My apologies. I should have cut-and-paste my earlier post on this thread:

* There's no mention of pirates. Pirates don't really make much sense in the original rules; there was a strong sense that starships simply aren't as common as they are in the TU. Privateers, yes, but pirates? I don't think there's enough loose ships lying around nor enough "anonymous" inhabited worlds with no questions asked berthing policies for the pirates to hide at. In this respect, it is much like the modern day - most civilian ships are not armed; you occasionally see it around Somalia or Strait of Malacca but even then there's no civilian ship armed with a surplus 5" destroyer turret, it's mostly armed mercenaries with small arms, water guns, barbed wire, and so on.

 

[BRJN]

I've thought there is a niche in 2300 for an armed civilian merchant ship. Sure, WE aren't shooting at anybody, but those other guys over there, are...
Plus, the concept of freedom of the seas, to engage in mutually profitable commerce with whoever you want.

The weapons won't be up to Q-ship or Armed Merchant Cruiser levels: The historical embodiment of THAT concept would be the ESA fleet during the Alpha Centauri War. That pretty much sets the psychological ceiling on civilian capabilities.

The modernized answer, since nukes in civilian hands is another clear no-no, might be a "6-shooter" of sorts: a basic laser with a big battery that can hold a few shots' worth of energy. The battery can be recharged over a lengthy time, after the excitement is over. Presumably the crew can shoot down an incoming missile; they may even scratch a commerce-raiding DD's paint, if they are feeling braggadocious.

I did note that, from a commerce raiding point of view, modern missile cruisers are going to overkill-annihilate whatever merchants they find. The century-old Brazilian(?) destroyer that bristles with lasers is a better choice. Retrofitted with:
- a few missiles, in case it finds a competently-guarded convoy and has to scamper off.
- multiplex tracking, so it can damage-but-not-destroy many merchantmen at once.
- speed of about 4, so no merchantman can flee beforehand or pursue / shadow afterwards.
- a couple of sensor drones with VERY good passive arrays, re-useable.

 

[AtlanticFriend]

Hoping it won't be seen as necro-posting, but I agree that armed civilian vessels don't really belong in the 2300AD setting.

For one thing, while piracy is possible (as it remains today), most illegal shipping activity will be contraband and smuggling illicit products, not hit and run attacks on ships. Modern pirates (like the Somali) either rely on ransom payments or on lawless areas where the sized ships' cargo can be sold and return to the world market somehow. In the 2300AD world, that would require, IMHO, something like a whole colony going rogue - and yet, being left to its own devices. Considering the level of social, financial and military investment required, I do not see such a colony ever being allowed to form and prosper, be that by the original colonial powers or by said colony's neighbors. Possibly one could have such colony operate temporarily but mostly as a front for another nation-state wanting to benefit from the sweet trade without directly commandeering corsairs through Lettres de Marque. Is it worth it though? Not so sure.

Mostly 2300AD is a universe of nation-states, which still claim to have a monopoly on organized violence like our current governments. France can be a hemispheric, space-faring nation, its power still comes from its ability to enforce French law and defend French interests, both things that are better done by French officials and French ships than by adopting some kind of "space Darwinism" to see if traders can compete with pirates.

One big evolution though, comes with the Trilon corporation, which has become both an economic and a geopolitical entity. As such, Trilon trading ships are probably a mix between a warship and a freighter (unless Trilon operates along a strict separation of trading ships and "sovereignty" ships).

 

[McPerth]

Hoping it won't be seen as necro-posting,

[m;]As long as it is not just to bump a thread, no rules against threadnecromacy are in force in this board[/m;]

And, BTW, welcome aboard.