See, I see BD as purely being for human spaces. A battlepod that was a seated human size (more a dalek then anything else) might make some sense. But outside human spaces full sized tanks, ortillery, drop ships take control.
Battle Dress Designs, anyone?
- Thread starter sabredog
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See, I see BD as purely being for human spaces. A battlepod that was a seated human size (more a dalek then anything else) might make some sense. But outside human spaces full sized tanks, ortillery, drop ships take control.
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
In the Falklands conflict (1982), the Blues and Royals (a regiment of the Household Cavalry of the British Army) used Scimitar light tanks to support infantry assaults on Argentine positions on East Falkland Island.
The ground was composed of bare and waterlogged bog-like moors down low, and steep outcroppings and small ravines higher up.
4 troop (B&R) was moving up to support 5 Infantry Brigade, and the local guide (when they came to the area marked "impassable"), said "no, even a man will sink there much less your bloody tanks". The Scimitars crossed the bogs without trouble... because their "ground pressure" (weight per square foot of track on the ground) was less than that of a man.
The use of grav belts to reduce the "ground pressure" of a BD-wearing trooper would greatly enhance his mobility... allowing him to cross swamps and ravines easily, and to march/run much faster than normal, simply because the terrain is effecting him less.
I agree that making the trooper faster for dashing to cover might be a good thing, but when weapon systems have reached the point of line-of-sight one-shot hits with lightspeed energy weapons and computerized automated targeting that can detect movement out to the horizon dashing about 30m off the ground is indeed NOE.
As defined by Striker: NOE is staying close to the ground "dodging around obstacles rather than flying over them".
IMHO infantry's greatest asset, and why there will always be a need for infantry despite the efforts of theorists over the years, is that infantry can do almost anything, and can be almost impossible - at least maybe too costly- to dig out.
If you are flying around almost 9 stories off the ground then you are giving up all your advantages of cover and concealment. Its easier to spot a 10-15m long tank than it is the guy with the tankbreaker weapon less than 50m away that is going to kill it. Even the grav tanks zipping about at NOE are taking a chance unless using terrain masking - but they have to unmask to fire and will be in the air suffering a greater chance to be hit than if grounded. But then, they have the armor and sensor gear to handle it, but I don't think a trooper in BD does.
Anyway, just my two cents and I have idiosyncracies of my own that lead to things like battledress-equipped troops shoulder-fired 20mm autocannons firing micro-nuclear shells just because I think a Big Damn Nuclear Gun is something every little boy reading Thrilling War Tales Of The Empire wants when he grows up and joins the Marines. Heck, I would.
BTW: I love the Striker stats on all the widgets and weapons (always used it but now have to go back to CT...players
) . Are you using IR-follow up ATGMs to get the high PEN, or have you tried it to get a higher one? (My MAHM "Boom-Tube" example is below as a tankbreaker for my powered troops) example is below.I also modified (and staggered the combat armor values with the BD ones) the armor values in Striker (and then back to CT) to reflect TL. How'd you settle on 24 for the heavy suit, and what are the details on your scout and officer suits?
I have lighter, faster ones for scouts and a heavy "Assault" suit for the Jump Troops. Yes, that one does fly - but only in one direction for a very short time.
Example of tankbreaker ATGM for use with BD.
TL-13 Medium Anti-armor Homing Missile (MAHM)
also known as the Boom-Tube the MAHM is a 2-piece disposable medium anti-armor fire and forget missile. It uses a smaller IR guided follow-up missile to defeat reactive armor and increase its penetration. The missile comes in a two-tube pack with each missile sealed inside for protection.
When the smaller secondary follow-up missile tube is unsnapped from the main one a spike pops open to allow the operator to stick the missile tube into the ground facing the relative position of the enemy (or direction the enemy might be approaching from). A wireless datalink to the main missile allows the follow-up missile to be located up to 200m away from the firer.
The main missile is shoulder fired and has a datalink cable to connect to the HUD targeting system in the user's helmet. The firer's HUD relays target info to the missile's homing seeker.
When the target is in range (2km) the missile if fired using a solid rocket booster with a low signature. The follow-up missile fires and locks on to a heated targets in the folding tail fins of the main rocket. Both missiles impact within milliseconds of each other.
Total Wt = 30k Price = 900Cr
15cm HEAP warheads on both for a total PEN = 57
TL-13 Medium Anti-armor Homing Missile (MAHM)
also known as the Boom-Tube the MAHM is a 2-piece disposable medium anti-armor fire and forget missile. It uses a smaller IR guided follow-up missile to defeat reactive armor and increase its penetration. The missile comes in a two-tube pack with each missile sealed inside for protection.
When the smaller secondary follow-up missile tube is unsnapped from the main one a spike pops open to allow the operator to stick the missile tube into the ground facing the relative position of the enemy (or direction the enemy might be approaching from). A wireless datalink to the main missile allows the follow-up missile to be located up to 200m away from the firer.
The main missile is shoulder fired and has a datalink cable to connect to the HUD targeting system in the user's helmet. The firer's HUD relays target info to the missile's homing seeker.
When the target is in range (2km) the missile if fired using a solid rocket booster with a low signature. The follow-up missile fires and locks on to a heated targets in the folding tail fins of the main rocket. Both missiles impact within milliseconds of each other.
Total Wt = 30k Price = 900Cr
15cm HEAP warheads on both for a total PEN = 57
OK, got me there (plus you are a faster typist), I just don't have actual "flying" fit into my tactical doctrine for infantry.
But I could also see how using grav belts would allow, at least for march purposes, BD-equipped troops could hump more gear out in the field, too. Even if only because a lot of that gear has its own small grav generators (like on ammo sleds, food/supplies, etc..) that could be jacked into the suit's power supply to activate.
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely in the "powered version of Combat Armor" camp, not the "super-duper everything-in-one personal grav tank" camp.
I just can see the justification for a minor amount of grav belt-type "load-reducing" tech... primarily to reduce the load on the ground, not on the armor.
I just can see the justification for a minor amount of grav belt-type "load-reducing" tech... primarily to reduce the load on the ground, not on the armor.
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
My Battledress is similar to the above versions, with various electronic enhancements courtesy of Striker. However, I couldn't squeeze point-defence fire control into the suit, so I'm not sure that personal point defence would be an option.
I did design the 'Nuke-Zook' though as a BD weapon. Basically, an 8cm 1kt nuclear-tipped RPG fired from a recoilless rifle with a fitment for a single-round shielded compartment. :devil:
I did design the 'Nuke-Zook' though as a BD weapon. Basically, an 8cm 1kt nuclear-tipped RPG fired from a recoilless rifle with a fitment for a single-round shielded compartment. :devil:
Yesssss.....I have one of those too. Disposable and 15cm, though. I wanted to make sure it could fly far enough away I didn't repeat the Army's "Atomic Grenade" experience.
I never really get to use all this stuff in the game very often, though, so it mainly just ends up as stage dressing to scare the crap out of the players when they see the Marines deploying on a planet they just got stuck on because a capacitor blew.
"Say, uh, Captain...is there something going on around here we ought to know about?"
Marine Captain pauses yelling at a loadmaster trying to guide a grav IFV out of the ship that just landed..."Naw, just some kind of insurgency in the hills over there...don't you watch the news? Hey, watch it with those nukes, they aren't bottle rockets you idiot squid!"
Turns back to the player and says, "I wouldn't worry too much about it, we'll have it cleared out in no time without too much fallout. These are the new NX-54's - cleaner and environmentally friendly (laughs and rolls his eyes)."
The Marines in BD lugging 15cm nuclear missiles down the ramp laugh uproariously hearing this, and say, "Don't worry, you'll just have your pee glow for a few days but your hair will grow back in a week or so."
The players start to panic, wondering if risking a misjump might be safer than risking sticking around to watch the Marines toast half a planet in order to save it.
I never really get to use all this stuff in the game very often, though, so it mainly just ends up as stage dressing to scare the crap out of the players when they see the Marines deploying on a planet they just got stuck on because a capacitor blew.
"Say, uh, Captain...is there something going on around here we ought to know about?"
Marine Captain pauses yelling at a loadmaster trying to guide a grav IFV out of the ship that just landed..."Naw, just some kind of insurgency in the hills over there...don't you watch the news? Hey, watch it with those nukes, they aren't bottle rockets you idiot squid!"
Turns back to the player and says, "I wouldn't worry too much about it, we'll have it cleared out in no time without too much fallout. These are the new NX-54's - cleaner and environmentally friendly (laughs and rolls his eyes)."
The Marines in BD lugging 15cm nuclear missiles down the ramp laugh uproariously hearing this, and say, "Don't worry, you'll just have your pee glow for a few days but your hair will grow back in a week or so."
The players start to panic, wondering if risking a misjump might be safer than risking sticking around to watch the Marines toast half a planet in order to save it.
No, I hear you...I'm surprised I hadn't thought of it that way before, but that's why I started this thread; to get some new perspectives on the suits. I haven't ever had the chance to play in many CT campaigns as a player and when I have the ref generally either treats it just as purely power combat with no offensive capabilities other than the gun the trooper carries, or they go way overboard and turn it into a Battlemech.
I think 'mechs have there place - I like Gadrin's designs...restrained, well thought out and reasonable. Its just the flying trooper thing I don't find tactically sound. But if it works for others more power to them. But the load carry assist thing I am going to have to incorporate - add a low power g-belt to the suits for reducing the overall weight of the suit and whatever is carried by maybe 50 to 25%. Do the zero-g glide on the march while carrying more mayhem into battle.
Think reducing the suit's weight by this method might make it a more effective close combat weapon, too? Better for melee in close quarters? Smacking someone around in these suits ought to do some serious damage, especially if wielding some kind of close combat weapon made for it.
My original idea for point defense on a suit was something akin to reactive armor, but I figured that was too hazardous. Just imagining supporting a blazer-equipped tank today would give me the willies.
The laser stud thing came about after I read about the counter-sniper detection system the Army's been trying out in Iraq and thinking that by TL-13 something like that might be small enough to fit on a soldier's suit and be powerful enough to fire a laser that could at least deflect or deform the round enough to prevent it from penetrating the suit, while also providing a readout on his HUD showing where the round came from.
We had some thread around here a while ago about how low tech insurgencies might take on battledress high tech troops and I figured there just had to be a way to neutralize at least the threat from the lowly RAM grenade. I mean, that thing has killed more BD-equipped troopers in my games than anything else has.
The other idea I had was a grav robot that was equipped with a VRF GG or something similar that could follow the squad around and provide the same service as a little Phalanx-type thing. Then when they dug in for the night the 'bot could stand watch, too. I haven't designed it yet, but it's something I'm still thinking I'll use.
I have similar 'bots to sell to colonists out on the frontier called "Fanboys" that are just cheaper then dirt ACV bots with plug-in weapon packages, so something bigger and carrying more ammo might work for the Marines.
The Oz
SOC-14 1K
Please read what I wrote a little more carefully: I said my armor allowed the troops to move at 30 KPH (kilometers per hour) one meter off the ground.
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
MegaTraveller Journal. Worth getting.
???
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. The sensors on the BD from GURPS
Traveller are very impressive, both Active and Passive along essentially
the entire EM band, plus laser comms and meson comm (I think on the
last one).
I don't know if it's possible to jam MESON comm or not, but that's a
different tangent.
Most BD has grav belts or grav packs (not all) which makes them
essentially Superman suits, esp once you toss in weaponry, like a
FGMP or a 20mm hand cannon. I think GURPS Traveller Ground Forces
even spouts off about the 20mm being slightly better at penetration
(using their game system anyhoo). Something along those lines.
I don't think GURPS really does anything different than what should
be in CT (just more details and a way to game them)...
GURPS Battledress has come down to earth (so to speak) as far as
their armor in recent books; but their sensor suites should be impressive
items.
Or am I misunderstanding you ?
>
Dear Folks -
Hi, Gadrin! If you're interested in the MT suits, try my website (link is in my .sig, below). I have MT-style equipment sheets for:
- Basic Battledress, TL 13-15
- Commando/Cavalry Battledress, TL 13-15
- Forward Observer Battledress, TL 13-15
- Assault Battledress, TL 10 & 13-14
and last but not least
- Imperial Marine Assault Battledress, TL 15
They are available as PDFs, plus the original Word versions so you can add your own mods.
Go to:
==> Tavonni Specialities
==> Menelvagor Ltd
==> Imported Goods
Enjoy! ;-)
Hi, Gadrin! If you're interested in the MT suits, try my website (link is in my .sig, below). I have MT-style equipment sheets for:
- Basic Battledress, TL 13-15
- Commando/Cavalry Battledress, TL 13-15
- Forward Observer Battledress, TL 13-15
- Assault Battledress, TL 10 & 13-14
and last but not least
- Imperial Marine Assault Battledress, TL 15
They are available as PDFs, plus the original Word versions so you can add your own mods.
Go to:
==> Tavonni Specialities
==> Menelvagor Ltd
==> Imported Goods
Enjoy! ;-)
Oh, well...yes. Sorry 'bout that.
Maybe a little.
The sensor gear in the vehicles for fire control and all is bulkier and more powerful, naturally and according to the Striker rules, than what you are going to logically be able to pack into a BD suit unless the suit if going to start turning into a 'mech.
In my personal opinion infantry in these suits are not going to have all the same sensing advantages of the vehicles, but they can counter those advantages by cover and concealment - as infantry has always done. A tank can't be looking, or more importantly, shooting everywhere at the same time so a team of infantry can counter the tank's superior sensing and targeting with a coordinated ambush from different directions. Just like today. Reverse slope attacks, digging in, sneaking up on it and shooting down into the deck (reminds me that downward firing warhead ATGM's are missing from Striker but need to be in there).
I dunno if the meson commo unit on a GURPS suit can be used for sensing and targeting, and no, meson comms can't be jammed, but I just think the units on the suits - while powerful - are not going to be as powerful as what is on a vehicle. Just like the sights on a rifle are not going to be as accurate and long reaching as the sights on a tank.
And if the suits were really just as good as any grav tank then why have AFV's anymore? Just use the infantry.
Did that answer your question, or have I muddied the waters further?
Hyphen, You'll have to tell us about
http://members.pcug.org.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/maint/travadnd.htm
The Oz
SOC-14 1K
IMTU the Marines (wearing that TL-15 heavy battledress I described earlier) work together with 2 specialized vehicles: the Marine Support Vehicle (MSV) and the Marine Combat Vehicle (MCV). Both carry half a nuclear damper set (so that any pair of vehicles can protect against nuke strikes) and each carries a battlefield meson screen (designed courtesy of FF&S) for protection against enemy meson guns (the screen isn't much use against starship meson guns, however). Both also have pairs of X-ray laser cannons with point defense fire control.
The MSV is a mobile base for Marine infantry, with sleeping quarters, autodoc, repair/recharging facilities for battledress, and cargo space for supplies. It is not a fighting vehicle and would avoid contact if possible.
The MCV carries a battlefield meson gun, and it's the real killer in a Marine company IMTU. Against enemies with roughly equal capabilities (TL-13+) my Marine infantry serves as a self-guiding recon network, linked through meson coms in the vehicles and cheap disposable comm drones for line-of-sight commo. The battledress infantry find the enemy and the MCVs kill them with their meson guns. If the enemy has battlefield meson screens of their own the Marine infantry find and kill them first, then the MCVs take over.
Against low-tech troops the Marine infantry can do the work themselves. Their weapons can deal with just about anything they might enounter and only the heaviest enemy weapons can take a Marine out. Using their gravbelts for mobility the Marines penetrate the enemy formation to prevent hostile massed fires and start killing.
The MSV is a mobile base for Marine infantry, with sleeping quarters, autodoc, repair/recharging facilities for battledress, and cargo space for supplies. It is not a fighting vehicle and would avoid contact if possible.
The MCV carries a battlefield meson gun, and it's the real killer in a Marine company IMTU. Against enemies with roughly equal capabilities (TL-13+) my Marine infantry serves as a self-guiding recon network, linked through meson coms in the vehicles and cheap disposable comm drones for line-of-sight commo. The battledress infantry find the enemy and the MCVs kill them with their meson guns. If the enemy has battlefield meson screens of their own the Marine infantry find and kill them first, then the MCVs take over.
Against low-tech troops the Marine infantry can do the work themselves. Their weapons can deal with just about anything they might enounter and only the heaviest enemy weapons can take a Marine out. Using their gravbelts for mobility the Marines penetrate the enemy formation to prevent hostile massed fires and start killing.
These sorts of discussions really make you wonder why (other than out of sheer bloodymindedness) anyone would ever even try to go up against a force equipped like the ones here.
At some point, you'd think someone would say, "Um, they have guns that can shoot through and into mountains and sensors that can see you wherever you run to, so why again are we declaring war against the Empire, sir?"
It all reminds me of the battles described in the Lensman series where planets would be burned to ash by the forces unleashed between two opponents trying to capture the place. This is why I try to keep it toned down a little and more "conventional" IMTU. I have to reflect the TL but find a fine line between what is possible and maybe more realistic given the tech available, and something that I can involve the players in from time to time (even if only as caught between two forces) without killing them all off in the first combat round with meson cannons and nuke-firing drones.
Reminds me too, of what my brother used to tell me when he was stationed in southern West Germany in the early to mid 80's: he was on "fence duty" running up and down the Czech translating radio traffic with the Bundeswehr Panzergrenadier unit he was attached to. The Germans used to tell him they figured their lives (including his in his little jeep and radio trailer) could be counted in minutes if the Warsaw Pact rolled over the borders. They'd sell them dearly for thier country but they had no illusions about what the end result would be. And if NATO unlocked the "tactical" nukes because the Soviets started using chemical weapons or overwhelming NATO forces before a Reforger could start working, well, the joke my brother used to say was passed around the unit was that "in Germany you are only 2 kilotons away from the next town."
Now that was just with what we have today and with both sides equipped fairly equally, if not in numbers at least in comparable TL. How could anyone ever even dream of a war in Traveller with the stuff we are talking about being a survivable prospect if you aren’t even close to the same TL?
At some point, you'd think someone would say, "Um, they have guns that can shoot through and into mountains and sensors that can see you wherever you run to, so why again are we declaring war against the Empire, sir?"
It all reminds me of the battles described in the Lensman series where planets would be burned to ash by the forces unleashed between two opponents trying to capture the place. This is why I try to keep it toned down a little and more "conventional" IMTU. I have to reflect the TL but find a fine line between what is possible and maybe more realistic given the tech available, and something that I can involve the players in from time to time (even if only as caught between two forces) without killing them all off in the first combat round with meson cannons and nuke-firing drones.
Reminds me too, of what my brother used to tell me when he was stationed in southern West Germany in the early to mid 80's: he was on "fence duty" running up and down the Czech translating radio traffic with the Bundeswehr Panzergrenadier unit he was attached to. The Germans used to tell him they figured their lives (including his in his little jeep and radio trailer) could be counted in minutes if the Warsaw Pact rolled over the borders. They'd sell them dearly for thier country but they had no illusions about what the end result would be. And if NATO unlocked the "tactical" nukes because the Soviets started using chemical weapons or overwhelming NATO forces before a Reforger could start working, well, the joke my brother used to say was passed around the unit was that "in Germany you are only 2 kilotons away from the next town."
Now that was just with what we have today and with both sides equipped fairly equally, if not in numbers at least in comparable TL. How could anyone ever even dream of a war in Traveller with the stuff we are talking about being a survivable prospect if you aren’t even close to the same TL?
Let's see... the US revolution: almost a TL of difference in local capability; far less in available equipment.
The Boer War... 2-3 TL difference. British political will didn't get broken, but it came close.
Indian Rebelions against the UK: a TL of difference... massive numbers out-weighed the difference.
Afghanistan: 1 TL difference in the cities, 3 in the wilds.., just under 1 in equipment. The Afghani luddites won.
The Boer War... 2-3 TL difference. British political will didn't get broken, but it came close.
Indian Rebelions against the UK: a TL of difference... massive numbers out-weighed the difference.
Afghanistan: 1 TL difference in the cities, 3 in the wilds.., just under 1 in equipment. The Afghani luddites won.
