Battledress a vehicle?

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Jamus:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Before T4 it wasn't there, thre is no indication in all of canon, besides your one book that it existed. Show me one more place outside of T4 that says it is so. Just one.

Show me anyplace in CT/MT thats says it does not. </font>[/QUOTE]Certainly. Lets start with CT.

Snapshot, says that movement rate is based on Endurance + Dex. (Page 4) Same movement for Combat Armor as Battledress (Page 14). AHL and Striker, I don't have at this time. If you really want, and nobody else posts before then, I'll let you know when I get them. (Preorder of CD-Rom happens tomorrow.

) However you already ended the discussion with your statement on T4 covered below.

MT Players Handbook:
Page 68.

Movement. Units must Specify one movement speed to be used for each turn. Movement Speed is 1 is human walking speed; speed 2 is human running speed; and higher speed levels apply to some animals and to vehicles. An animal's speed is determined when it is created (see referee's manual). A vehicle's speed is detemined by dividing its velocity in kilometers per hour by 10.

Now no place in the MT rules, neither in the table on page 74, nor in the Encyclopedia's description of Battledress on page 74 does it give a movement rate for battledress.

So there is no gravity drive included with Battledress. Seems pretty clear to me.

Striker rules anyone?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />OK lets use your logic. Marc Miller's name is listed on the T20 THB and as the first name on the credits page. T20 and QLI's work is canon and approved. T20 clearly states that standard Battledress does not include gravitics and Battledress is a vehicle. There is no statement anywhere else in canon that precludes Battledress being a vehicle and the description of Battledress even implies that it is a powered walking set of armor, so it implies it is a vehicle by its own description and that is wihtout contradiction in any earlier version of Traveller, it isn't addressed.

Battle dress is created using the vehicle design rules but is not in CT/MT/striker considered a vehicle nor is it treated as a vehicle in T4. T20 is the first traveller set to make that leap.
Battle dress is no more a vehicle than a vacsuit or combat armor.</font>[/QUOTE]It isn't defined as a vehicle in any earlier version how? It doesn't say either way. It never states in CT or MT that it isn't a vehicle. It says:

Battle Dress: The ultimate in individual protection, battledress is an advanced and powered version of combat armor. Battle dress enhances the strength and senses of individuals wearing it with variable feedback personal controls, servopowered limbs and various kinds of electronic assistance.

(Empahsis is mine.) Not only does it not say it isn't a vehicle, the two italicised segments actually imply it is a vehicle. Your logic that CT and MT Battledress have Gravitics because T4 says Battledress has gravitics and CT and MT don't explicity say they don't fully applies here. In this case because a vehicle status can be implied it is actually a stronger argument than your, "it doesn't say anything."

Your logic about T4 vrs T20 is kinda silly in that one implicetly states grav on BD while the other does not state no grav on battle dress and gives rules for designing grav capable BD.

Standard battledress, is well defined in T20, page 286 of the Travellers Handbook under the heading Standard designs. Since all of the internal space is accounted for and a gravity drive is not there, I can positively state that Standard Battledress in T20 has no gravitic drive. I never said that no battledress has Gravitics. I said STANDARD Battledress doesn't have it. You have been claiming that because T4 says battledress has gravitics then all battle dress from previous versions has it.

My logic of T20 vs. T4 is rather silly? That is your logic. What a later version of Traveller can't change canon? T20 isn't canon?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />But OK. According to you, there is no evidence in CT therefore T4 must stand alone and be applicable to CT. Fine I have evidence from a canon CT source that says there is no gravitics standard in Battledress in CT. Movement rate of Battledress in Snapshot is the same as movement rate in Combat armor.

Wasnt snapshot a rules set for ship board combat? kinda doubt a BD troop would be grav boosting down a 2 meter wide 2 meter high passageway.

Therefore a CT canon source flatly contradicts Battledress having useful gravitics.

I disagree</font>[/QUOTE]You disagree with what? That Snapshot is canon? Or that a battle dress that doesn't have any way to enhance movement doesn't have gravity drive. Snapshot provides starship deckplans but there was no reason it couldn't be used in other venues.

Snapshot, Page 3.

Snapshot is an adaptation of the personal combat rules given in Traveller, especially for combat at close ranges. The extent of the adaptation includes a conversion of the range-only system to a square grid, and the incorporation of both clarifications and enhancements.

Snapshot, it should be remembered, is aimed at close range encounters; it is not intended, or especially useful, for outside situations with ranges greater than 50 or 60 meters.

Sounds like standard personal, CT, combat to me. By the way, it is fairly obvious why it isn't recommended for longer ranges. 15 second turns and a 1.5m scale.

The only thing Snapshot lacked was the same thing that Classic Traveller lacked when it came to combat. Weapons effects against vehicular armor.

Now that is out of the way, there is still the MT rules that also say Battledress moves at a rate of 1 for walking and 2 for running. I suppose since a gravbelt has a rate of 22, that it is simply a underpowered grav unit in the battledress for both of these?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />So I will reiterate that CT says no, MT says no, TNE says no, T4 says yes, GT says only under some circumstances and T20 says no. The No's have it.

CT says nothing either way.
MT says yes on some models of BD (if MT journal is considered canon)
TnE .. show me where it says no grav on BD
T4 says yes on most models of BD
GT says yes on some models of BD
T20 allows for grav capable battle dress so again yes.</font>[/QUOTE]An MT article says on SOME models of Battledress. Not all models of Battle dress. So that article would be evidence that it isn't standard on battle dress?

T4 now says on most models of battle dress? So it isn't standard in T4 either, like you were claiming earlier.

So now we are down to STANDARD battle dress has no gravitics in CT (based on Snapshot rules, others to follow, and never even implies it is included, anywhere in the rules.), no gravitics in MT (though special cases may apply), no gravitics in TNE (my TNE material is definitely incomplete but there is no claim in the rules I have that says it has it, and I am not bothering to dig it up to quote.), no gravitics in T4 but some battledress has it (Your own admission.), no gravitics in GT (Which may be considered canon but can also be legitiamtely excluded), but some battledress has it and clearly deliniates which has it and which doesn't, no gravitics in T20, though because of vehicle status can be easily customized.

So back to gravitics is not STANDARD in battle dress, so it isn't going to be in Standard Plain Vanilla Battle Dress. Which is what I have been saying all along.

 

[Jamus]

Certainly. Lets start with CT.

Snapshot, says that movement rate is based on Endurance + Dex. (Page 4) Same movement for Combat Armor as Battledress (Page 14). AHL and Striker, I don't have at this time. If you really want, and nobody else posts before then, I'll let you know when I get them. (Preorder of CD-Rom happens tomorrow. [Smile] ) However you already ended the discussion with your statement on T4 covered below.

Again looking for rules mechanics to support an argument you can not win. It is canon that 3I battle dress has gravitics. I have now shown two canon sources to support it. T4 and MT journal 1 dressed to kill. you drag out gorund movement rules and make a leap that since a guy can walk 1 and run 2 he cant grav bounce or grav boost any.
Fact is you have yet to produce any setting material to support your argument.

MT Players Handbook:
Page 68.

Movement. Units must Specify one movement speed to be used for each turn. Movement Speed is 1 is human walking speed; speed 2 is human running speed; and higher speed levels apply to some animals and to vehicles. An animal's speed is determined when it is created (see referee's manual). A vehicle's speed is detemined by dividing its velocity in kilometers per hour by 10.

OK now that we know how movement speed is calculated.

Now no place in the MT rules, neither in the table on page 74, nor in the Encyclopedia's description of Battledress on page 74 does it give a movement rate for battledress.

Nor does it describe any of the equipment on MT battle dress actually the entry for battle dress in MT is exactly the same as the one in CT.

So there is no gravity drive included with Battledress. Seems pretty clear to me.

But then so did taking out a running BD trooper at long range with a scope mounted on a auto rifle. excuse me if I am not impressed with your grasp of CT rules. Also if I state that the average human can walk X and run Y does that mean he cant bounce A if he is wearing battle dress? I read the movement rules and conclude that your logic is faulty.

It isn't defined as a vehicle in any earlier version how? It doesn't say either way. It never states in CT or MT that it isn't a vehicle. It says:

quote: Battle Dress: The ultimate in individual protection, battledress is an advanced and powered version of combat armor. Battle dress enhances the strength and senses of individuals wearing it with variable feedback personal controls, servopowered limbs and various kinds of electronic assistance.

And that discription is found under the personal armor section of the combat equipment section LBB1 not in the equipment and vehicle section of LBB3.

Battle dress is armor not a vehicle.

(Empahsis is mine.) Not only does it not say it isn't a vehicle, the two italicised segments actually imply it is a vehicle.

Yeah but the battledress is an advanced and powered version of combat armor doesnt imply it is actually a suit of armor it states that it is a suit of armor in pretty plain text.

Your logic that CT and MT Battledress have Gravitics because T4 says Battledress has gravitics and CT and MT don't explicity say they don't fully applies here.

Except my argument is based on fluff and setting information and yours is based on you misclassifying a clearly classified piece of equipment. we may not know what equipment is on a suit of battle dress but CT/MT and T4 all agree that battle dress is personal armor. not a vehicle.

In this case because a vehicle status can be implied it is actually a stronger argument than your, "it doesn't say anything."

Except CT clearly states that battle dress is a suit of armor in the same way that combat armor is. perhaps you mean to imply that combat armor is a vehicle? adding the augmentation to a suit of armor does not change its classification as you would know if you read CT/MT.

let me repost incase you missed it. battledress is an advanced and powered version of combat armor Also since you want to insist on arguing roll playing aspects of traveller and ignore role playing aspects If battle dress is a vehicle why is it a related skill to vacc suit? is vacc suit a vehicle now?

Standard battledress, is well defined in T20, page 286 of the Travellers Handbook under the heading Standard designs.

And this is the only standard design for battle dress in the 3I? I guess the book full of designs I have from T4 and the few for MT in dressed to kill are not standard?

Here is a thought for you.

T4 said nothing about battle dress that contradicted previously written canon mainly because there was no real detail given to battle dress in CT/MT. T4 is the first solid information we are given on battle dress used from TL10 and up in the 3I.

Not only is there no grav on most T20 battle dress but T20 battle dress isnt even aug armor it is a humanoid vehicle closer related to a battle tech mech than CT battle dress. Is it canon? I see no reason to think it would not be. there are a few CT/MT canon references to large humanoid mech type machines. there is room in traveller for both or all versions to exist.

Since all of the internal space is accounted for and a gravity drive is not there, I can positively state that Standard Battledress in T20 has no gravitic drive.

But it could and is it the same volumn as CT/MT/T4 battle dress?

I never said that no battledress has Gravitics. I said STANDARD Battledress doesn't have it.

What is standard CT/MT battle dress and do you have a list of equipment on standard CT/MT battle dress? you dont know what is on CT/MT battle dress.

You have been claiming that because T4 says battledress has gravitics then all battle dress from previous versions has it.

And you have yet to disprove that assertion. riddle me this batman.. T4 states that the standard version of aug battle dress used in year 26 third imperium has grav units built in. can you show me anywhere in CT/MT that contradicts this canonical writing? You cant even tell me what kind of communications or sensors are on a set of CT battle dress.

My logic of T20 vs. T4 is rather silly? That is your logic. What a later version of Traveller can't change canon? T20 isn't canon?

Is T20 battle dress even the same thing as CT battle dress? what is the volume of that suit you designed and how much is its tonnage?
T4 lists TL13 battle dress at 310kg and a volume of .3

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Jamus:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Certainly. Lets start with CT.

Snapshot, says that movement rate is based on Endurance + Dex. (Page 4) Same movement for Combat Armor as Battledress (Page 14). AHL and Striker, I don't have at this time. If you really want, and nobody else posts before then, I'll let you know when I get them. (Preorder of CD-Rom happens tomorrow. [Smile] ) However you already ended the discussion with your statement on T4 covered below.

Again looking for rules mechanics to support an argument you can not win. It is canon that 3I battle dress has gravitics. I have now shown two canon sources to support it. T4 and MT journal 1 dressed to kill. you drag out gorund movement rules and make a leap that since a guy can walk 1 and run 2 he cant grav bounce or grav boost any.
Fact is you have yet to produce any setting material to support your argument.</font>[/QUOTE]I don't have to use setting material. What setting material says that there is Gravitics standard in Battledress? You opened up a rulebook and said there it is, then later said that it doesn't say all battledress has it but selected examples do. Since the rules do not support that Gravity drive is standard in Battledress, since your source doesn't support it, where is anything that supports your contention that standard CT, MT or for that matter any version of Traveller, battle dress has any kind of gravity drive?


You already proved that Gravitics is not standard in any version of Traveller. Which was you initial supposition.

MT Players Handbook:
Page 68.

Movement. Units must Specify one movement speed to be used for each turn. Movement Speed is 1 is human walking speed; speed 2 is human running speed; and higher speed levels apply to some animals and to vehicles. An animal's speed is determined when it is created (see referee's manual). A vehicle's speed is detemined by dividing its velocity in kilometers per hour by 10.

OK now that we know how movement speed is calculated.

Now no place in the MT rules, neither in the table on page 74, nor in the Encyclopedia's description of Battledress on page 74 does it give a movement rate for battledress.

Nor does it describe any of the equipment on MT battle dress actually the entry for battle dress in MT is exactly the same as the one in CT.

So there is no gravity drive included with Battledress. Seems pretty clear to me.

But then so did taking out a running BD trooper at long range with a scope mounted on a auto rifle. excuse me if I am not impressed with your grasp of CT rules. Also if I state that the average human can walk X and run Y does that mean he cant bounce A if he is wearing battle dress? I read the movement rules and conclude that your logic is faulty.[/quote]

My reading of the movement rules are faulty? OK so show me the missed bounce? Anyplace in the movement rules for MT?

Also since you want to insist on arguing roll playing aspects of traveller and ignore role playing aspects If battle dress is a vehicle why is it a related skill to vacc suit? is vacc suit a vehicle now?

A vacsuit isn't powered armor. Battle dress clearly is, with servos moving the arms. That can be construed, rather easily, as crossing the line and making it a vehicle. Albeit a vehicle limited to human movement without other optional enhancements. But easily crosses the line to vehicle. Besides T20 is canon and says so. Nothing before that point expressly forbids it. Your same logic. Besides that wasn't really my point.

My point was that, like the comments on Jump Torpedoes that canon isn't absolute. One source does not necessarily add or change canon. IMHO calling it a vehicle or not is just semantics and doesn't really alter the nature of Battle Dress. Claiming that standard battle dress comes equipped with gravity drive standard because some book says it does when there is plenty of other evidence to the contrary does change canon. Further by your own admission even that book doesn't list that as a standard component of standard battle dress. You now claim it says Most battle dress has gravity drive. So how is that Standard? The rules don't support it. The fiction doesn't support it. End of story.

[qb]You have been claiming that because T4 says battledress has gravitics then all battle dress from previous versions has it.

And you have yet to disprove that assertion. [/quote] You don't think? Lets see, I showed where the rules refute your supposition, there is no fiction that support your supposition, or canon background material that supports your supposition and finally you admitted all battle dress didn't have gravitic drive, even in the T4 material. So since that is the case, with overwhelming evidence saying it isn't standard, where is anything that says it is? Do you have any other source that says it is standard, since your first one said most not all?

T4 lists TL13 battle dress at 310kg and a volume of .3

Volume of .3? Displacement tons? As in a Scoutship is 100? T20 standard Battle Dress happens to be, about .214 disp tons. Mine is smaller, about .177. Those numbers use the standard not the alternate vls to ton conversion. Sounds fairly close to me. Vehicle, not a vehicle, it is just a label.

Changing the mobility of standard battle dress that isn't just a label. And you have yet to show anything that supports it. You can add options to either the troops or the armor, as provided in the rules, (troops or armor depends on the rule set) and in doing so also add the Skill requirement for the drive, and I have no issue with that at all. (I do it myself.) But to add it for free because you want to, sure, IYTU, that doesn't mean or imply the OTU.

And yes a skilled marksman with a TL5 rifle can still kill a battledressed marine more than half the time in CT.

 

[mike wightman]

Battledress in the T4 core rulebook is equiped with contragrav:

This is the natural expansion of the battle dress concept that
occurred after the invention of cold fusion. Augmented battle dress
is heavier than regular battle dress, but has strength augmentation,
powered by a back-mounted cold fusion unit.
Aside from providing Strength 12, double movement distance,
and +4 Endurance to the user, the armor also has an overall rigid
armor rating of 8, with reflec augmentation under a “stealth coat.
Known abilities include full life-support, antigrav movement,
tactical communications, broad-spectrum sensing capabilities, and
limited point defense versus hand-launched missiles. Normal
weaponry is some form of gauss or laser weapon powered from
the cold fusion unit. Other capabilities are classified, although anyone
with Battle Dress skill of 2 or more would know most of them,
and may have served in such a unit.
This armor cannot be used effectively at all without Battle
Dress skill, and the lower of the user‘s Battle Dress skill or other
Dexterity skill is used when trying to perform complex Dexterity
tasks.
The suit is a TL12 item. Its cost is estimated at KCr200, and
deployment of Augmented Battle Dress units is classified. These
suits are not available for personal possession.

page 76.

 

[aramis]

Gravitic battlesuits are the standard IMC issue battle dress in MT. TD15 & MT Reb SB. (Integral Grav Belt is the term used.)

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Aramis:
Gravitic battlesuits are the standard IMC issue battle dress in MT. TD15 & MT Reb SB. (Integral Grav Belt is the term used.)

Absolutely. (Though I didn't find a reference in the Rebellion Sourcebook.) Which differentiates it from the standard battle dress in the Encyclopedia.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Battledress in the T4 core rulebook is equiped with contragrav:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />This is the natural expansion of the battle dress concept that
occurred after the invention of cold fusion. Augmented battle dress
is heavier than regular battle dress, but has strength augmentation,
powered by a back-mounted cold fusion unit.
Aside from providing Strength 12, double movement distance,
and +4 Endurance to the user, the armor also has an overall rigid
armor rating of 8, with reflec augmentation under a “stealth coat.
Known abilities include full life-support, antigrav movement,
tactical communications, broad-spectrum sensing capabilities, and
limited point defense versus hand-launched missiles. Normal
weaponry is some form of gauss or laser weapon powered from
the cold fusion unit. Other capabilities are classified, although anyone
with Battle Dress skill of 2 or more would know most of them,
and may have served in such a unit.
This armor cannot be used effectively at all without Battle
Dress skill, and the lower of the user‘s Battle Dress skill or other
Dexterity skill is used when trying to perform complex Dexterity
tasks.
The suit is a TL12 item. Its cost is estimated at KCr200, and
deployment of Augmented Battle Dress units is classified. These
suits are not available for personal possession.

page 76. </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks Sigg. An actual quote from a T4 source.

I notice that it is calling it Augmented Battle Dress. And that it is comparing it to "Regular Battle Dress." So does "Regular Battle Dress" also list contragrav as a standard component?

I also note that it is fusion powered with a contra grav unit. Does it specify that a grav skill is required to pilot it?

While it doesn't say it is a vehicle, I can see that easily classed as a vehicle.

 

[mike wightman]

T4 calls CT combat armour battledress, and CT battledress augmented battledress.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
T4 calls CT combat armour battledress, and CT battledress augmented battledress.

Combat Armor can be used with PGMP-13's then?

That is weird.

 

[mike wightman]

Yes, but the combat armour troops (unaugmented battledress in T4) would need a two man team to use it (a three man team is needed for the PGMP12).

 

[BetterThanLife]

Well the PGMP-12 never did require battle dress, but had a slow rate of fire. Though the PGMP-13 definitely did require battle dress. T4 is so far off from what I am used to seeing, comparing it to CT/MT/T20 is almost like comparing apples to oranges, though in this case they are both called apples. If this is any indication as to how the rest of it compares to CT/MT/T20 I am glad I didn't find it when it was published. I definitely see the confusion.

So in your opinion is it in line with CT/MT and T20 for personal armor or is it as radically different as it sounds?

 

[mike wightman]

As I've said before, I like the T4 book Emperor's Arsenal, it does a good job in showing weapon evolution with TL. IMHO it is broadly inline with CT/MT/T20, even GT.

There are differences, but I can pick the bits I like for MTU.

 

[BetterThanLife]

OK. Still not buying it, if I could find it.

But different. And broadly inline isn't a bad thing, it just sounds like, especially in this instance it isn't inline with CT/MT/T20 and the little bit of TNE I have read.