Before T4 it wasn't there, thre is no indication in all of canon, besides your one book that it existed. Show me one more place outside of T4 that says it is so. Just one.
Show me anyplace in CT/MT thats says it does not. Also since you seem to know exactly what is on CT/MT battle dress maybe you could post that info so the rest of us can know.
OK lets use your logic. Marc Miller's name is listed on the T20 THB and as the first name on the credits page. T20 and QLI's work is canon and approved. T20 clearly states that standard Battledress does not include gravitics and Battledress is a vehicle. There is no statement anywhere else in canon that precludes Battledress being a vehicle and the description of Battledress even implies that it is a powered walking set of armor, so it implies it is a vehicle by its own description and that is wihtout contradiction in any earlier version of Traveller, it isn't addressed.
Battle dress is created using the vehicle design rules but is not in CT/MT/striker considered a vehicle nor is it treated as a vehicle in T4. T20 is the first traveller set to make that leap.
Battle dress is no more a vehicle than a vacsuit or combat armor.
Since T20 was written after T4, then the T4 rules concerning Grav Drive in Battledress is no longer canon because it was suplanted by a later canon source. Battledress does not have gravitic drive and is a vehicle. That is canon according to your logic.
Can you provide page info from T20 that states that no 3I battle dress have gravitics? even MT wouldnt make that claim. look up 3I imperial assault battle dress in dressed to kill (MT Journal #1 by Tom Peters). it has a modular grav pack which suggests grav was not unheard of for battle dress pre-T20. stealth/scout/commando suits of battle dress are not described as having grav. Is it possible to you that there may have been more than one model of BD? Now the headache would be determining which form of battle dress is standard or if the various modular packs come standard with the battle dress and included in the 200KCr cost.
Your logic about T4 vrs T20 is kinda silly in that one implicetly states grav on BD while the other does not state no grav on battle dress and gives rules for designing grav capable BD.
Oh and since the only source I have found on Jump torpedoes aside from Adventure 4, Leviathian, (I found the one that I thought contradicted it.) is non-canon, I guess Jump torpedoes work in all versions of Traveller. (Though Sigg will probably find a canon reference that disputes it, I don't have one.) So therefore because canon says jump torpedoes work, they work in all versions of Traveller and the OTU at large.
Why not?
Jamus, Traveller was written by several people from various companies with different ideas of what is Traveller. All of that together makes up the Traveller canon. There are quite a few contradictions in canon. I personally believe you have to take the material that is most consistent.
I agree. If one source claims something is and no other source claims that that thing is not I will go with the first.
T4 states grav on BD.
CT/MT/GT/TnE do not state grav on BD either way. Show me one source that states there is no grav on any type of 3I battle dress. Show me one source that is canon that says "no grav on battle dress ever" can you?
But OK. According to you, there is no evidence in CT therefore T4 must stand alone and be applicable to CT. Fine I have evidence from a canon CT source that says there is no gravitics standard in Battledress in CT. Movement rate of Battledress in Snapshot is the same as movement rate in Combat armor.
Wasnt snapshot a rules set for ship board combat? kinda doubt a BD troop would be grav boosting down a 2 meter wide 2 meter high passageway.
Therefore a CT canon source flatly contradicts Battledress having useful gravitics.
I disagree
As I recall, (Since I no longer have copies of those.) the same is true of both AHL and Striker. (But I won't be able to personally confirm that before I get my CD.)
same though this convo may force me to the ebay cave :devil:
In MT. Battledress also has the same movement rate as combat armor and walking troops. Anything that has a movement rate of greater than 1 is indicated in the rules, and the rules state that it will be so indicated. Since Battledress has no movement rate listed it is 1 and therefore does not include gravity drive. (Gravity belts have a movement rate of 22 and are listed seperately and as such.)
Very logical argument. again we would have to see exactly what MT journal #1 says about it but I am not convinced. until you explain to me the exact capability and what specific equipment is on CT/MT battle dress I will keep a open mind. I would suggest you do the same.
(I knew there were indications that there was no gravitic drive in Battledress in CT and MT I just had to be awake enough to find it.)
The only indication of this is that a person walking in battle dress moves at the same speed as a person walking in a vac suit. though the argument is logical it does not conclusively prove anything other than that.
So I will reiterate that CT says no, MT says no, TNE says no, T4 says yes, GT says only under some circumstances and T20 says no. The No's have it.
CT says nothing either way.
MT says yes on some models of BD (if MT journal is considered canon)
TnE .. show me where it says no grav on BD
T4 says yes on most models of BD
GT says yes on some models of BD
T20 allows for grav capable battle dress so again yes.
Now T4 is limited in Tech Level. (Look when it is set.) So from LBB4. Infantry Small Arms and Personal Equipment: Extracted from page 43.
quote:
Tech Level 13: All infantry is generally now in Combat Armor and equipped with Gauss Rifles.Battledress is issued to selected assault troops.
Tech Level 14: A higher proportion of the infantry is equipped with battle dress, and the standard small arm for such troops becomes the PGMP-13.
Tech Level 15: Most infantry is now equipped with battle dress and has converted to the FGMP-14. The Gauss rifle remains the standard arm of non-powered troops.
What is the average tech level of the 3I in 1106? in CT it states average TL is 12. so though there may be a few worlds out there capable of fielding BD equipped troops in mass that is not true by and large. My point stands.
Seems to me that at high tech levels canon states that most troops, not just some troops are equipped with battle dress. Not that I can figure out why, it isn't cost effective in CT. But take that background to T20 and it makes sense.
TL15 is 3I max and would be rare in the extreme.
BTW T4 is canon, I have no issue with that. However when there is a contradiction between multiple canon sources you have to have a reasonable and consistent method to decide which is correct.
I am still not seeing how assuming CT BD has grav is a canon breaker.
So now Grav Belts are not grav vehicles? Air/raft specifies all kinds of grav vehicles. If they aren't Grav Vehicles what are they?
Grav belts are grav vehicles of course. however depending on how one interprets things G-belts would not be covered by grav skill.
Traveller book pg 111 states
Grav vehicle skill is necessary to operate a grav vehhicle. Air/raft skill is a synnonym for grav vehicle.
The you will note that air/rafy describes a basic type of vehicle. Gcarrier also specifically states it is a grav vehicle and is piloted using air/raft skill followed by speeder which also states the similarity to air/raft and GCarrier. in each entry it specifies that all three vehicles are piloted using air/raft skill.
now read Grav belt.
one- it is not called a vehicle it is called a grav transport.
two- No mention is made of using air/raft skill to pilot.
So in answer to your point no Grav belt is not used with air/raft skill.
Further just because one skill covers an item that does not preclude another skill from covering the same item.
As examples I give you Autopistol (LBB1 under weapon), Pistol (LBB4) and Handgun (LBB5). (Many of the weapon skills have an overlap.) any of those three skills allow you to fire an autopistol.
No different that air/raft GCarrier and speeder.
Vaccsuit and Battledress, both skills allow you to wear and use Battledress, except Vacsuit doesn't allow you to use battledress with a PGMP-13 or FGMP-14.
which proves what exactly?
<Edited to add> One more example Both from LBB1 Car, from the vehicel cascade skill says it covers ATV's and ATV is a seperate skill. (Though I can't figure out how you can get the ATV skill. [Smile] ) <End Edit!>
The difference between driving a coupe or a 4x4 chevy. again this does not support your argument.
Also ATV is both a marine and a army service skill.
And that is absolutely correct as written he designed and created the original Traveller concept and game design. That does not say that he had a personal hand in writing any of the T4 material. (Though he probably retained editorial authority.)
It is my belief that MWM actually wrote the bulk of the T4 rulesbook. I could be wrong.
T4 is a canon source. Absolutely it is. But T4 being canon does not automatically imply that it is correct in all things canon.
Where is your canon source that states in absolute terms that BD does not have grav? you are reading a lack of information to mean no when what it really is is a lack of information and nothing more.
None of that means that he actually wrote all of canon, or even read all of it. Sigg named the author of the particular tome that you are referring to and it wasn't Marc Miller.
MWM wrote T4 the rules book i believe but he did not write the T4 emperors arsenal. that said battle dress described in the T4 rules book has gravitics. MWM would have had to approve this I would think. maybe not but...
I do know that the last page of T4 shows the traveller dream team which is a image with MWM center back surrounded by the other people who helped with T4.
No, not a cop out, that is evidence of obvious conflicts within Traveller canon.
What conflict do you keep posting about? there is no canon conflict as canon does not specify what is or is not on BD prior to T4. what we have here is not a canon conflict it is ego and opinion. since you have decided that 3I BD does not have grav regardless of a lack of evidence to support your conclusion and directly opposed to canon material that states opposite you view you are trying to prove that you are right even if it means ignoring canon or discarding canon.
The rest was handled in another pair of posts above.
You proved nothing.
