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Big Naval Ships in the Traveller Universe

That's the thing about war-games/sims of whatever variety I have played over the years, designers bend over backwards coming up with "balanced" scenarios.

In many situations, even wargames may not be balanced if they intend to represent an historical situation. That's what victory conditions are for...

(e.g. In SL/ASL there are scenarios where one side may not stand the other side onslaught, but the victory conditions may make you the winner even if your force was whiped by such superior force.

For a more Traveller related example, in Invasion Earth the Imperium, with its infinite resources, is expected to end up occuppying Earth and winning the war, but it may well lose the game)
 
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But we're disgressing... Let's return to the original thread question (and answers to it):

So basically a requirement specification for T5 BCS.

Mostly agreed in your points, with some exceptions:

People Matter: A few outstanding individuals adds a small mod somewhere. Morale, when does fleets or ships break or give up?

While I agree with the title, not so much abotu explanations. I guess overall crew quality would be more important than those "few outstanding individuals" (one of my usual criticisms to CT:HG)

Agility Matters: i.e. effective acceleration. Warships have large M-drives for a reason.

I'm not sure about this point. The idea of agility as an airplane may have in dogfight sounds out of place here, as you cannot dodge when your acceleration is so limited (respective to speeds and distance). As someone said, you might (maybe) maneuver to avoid lasers (or even plasma/fusion) to hit you in perpendicular angle, so reducing its effect, but this would be useless against missiles (whose emplosions are probably in all directions) and mesons. IMHO, the reason for starhips to have such large M-drives is for acceleration, not for Agility (after all, in the games where Agility is a factor, CT/MT, it's not realted to M-drives _though limited by them- but to spare power)

Diceless combat resolution: Something like statistical combat resolution from TCS or fleet combat from MgT2. We can't roll hundreds of rolls per round, it takes way too much time. Only roll what really matters i.e. spinals or mesons. It should still give roughly the same result as rolling all the dice...

While I won't even discuss this to probably be accurate, IMHO it takes most of the fun of playing (so, it would be good for narrative, but not so much for rules).

I agree in reduced dice rolling, though (maybe soemthing similar to MgT1E barrages, that resolved all same weapons fire with a single die roll?)
 
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Operationally, you're supposed to get to the objective fastest with the mostest, and if possible, defeat your enemy in detail.
 
Agility Matters: i.e. effective acceleration. Warships have large M-drives for a reason.
I'm not sure about this point. THe idea of agility as an airplane mya have in dogfight sounds out of place here, as you cannot dodge when your acceleration isso limited (respective to speeds and distance). As someone said, you might (maybe) maneuver to avoid lasers (or even plasma/fusion) to hit you in perpendicular angle, so reducing its effect, but this would be useless against missiles (whose emplosions are probably in all directions) and mesons.
It's not like aircraft, or reacting to attacks.
It's about a proactive erratic course, to make a target solution more difficult. Like a ship avoiding potential torpedo attacks by zigzagging. (Zig = changing direction of motion = changing velocity vector = acceleration.)

IMHO, the reason for starhips to have such large M-drives is for acceleration, not for Agility (after all, in the games where Agility is a factor, CT/MT, it's not realted to M-drives _though limited by them- but to spare power)
In CT it's just power to the M-drive: full power gives full acceleration, partial power gives partial acceleration, no power gives no acceleration. You don't have to have a power plant large enough to provide power to both weapons and the M-drive at the same time.
The degree to which you send power to the M-drive is called Agility = current acceleration. It's nothing to do with spare power.

MT apparently misunderstood this completely and disconnected agility from the M-drive. You can have Agility-6 with an M-drive-1. You have to send full power to the M-drive and weapons and thus have full acceleration available at all times. "Agility" is just extra power pumped into nothing somehow, something like adding a V8 not connected to anything to a fighter jet... I'm sure it will sound nice, but will not make it fly faster or turn tighter. Just like the movement system in MT, it's completely divorced from reality or physics.


When I'm talking about agility, I'm talking about CT agility = current acceleration.
 
But in CT you can also have M-drives 6 and Agility 0 (despite being able to acceperate at 6G), if you have no extra power, so, while M-drives limit maximum agility, agility is not dependant on them, but on power...
 
You probably have to have a method to rapidly vary direction.

Otherwise, prediction programmes would position missiles to intersect the starwarship's path.

For energy weapon systems, this should be interesting in a stern chase.
 
Assumption: this thread assumes that the Narrative Canon for Traveller is often more correct than the rules.
Carlo's Axiom sums it up nicely: The rules as written don't support the ships as written.


MY GOAL: A list of generalizations, restrictions, and expectations for Big Ship combat.


Given: there is a vast corpus of semi-compatible Traveller material.
Given: some books have a greater influence than other material.
Given: some people have a greater influence than others.

Then:

What can we say generally about Big Navy Ships in Traveller?



Living List, stolen from the posters in this thread.
  • Resource Units are a brutal taskmaster in fleet design.
    • You can't install everything in every ship, nor can you afford to.
  • Losses take a LONG TIME to get rebuilt and replenished.
  • TL is critical. A +3 TL, or perhaps +2 TL, difference is decisive.
  • I don't see sense or reason in allowing more than one spine per ship. Maybe it's just me.
  • Warships by number. Corvettes, Destroyers, and Escorts make up 80% of the fleet, Cruisers make up 15%, and Capitals 5%.
  • Missiles are viable secondaries, and dominate at lower TLs.
    • Missile platforms could be created from relatively weak ships, couldn't they?
  • Fighters are not useful against heavy armor and defenses.
    • They might have a screening function.
  • The Tigress class seems to be the largest feasible warship at TL15, and is "the Big Bad to Beat".
    • That could legitimately be a bone of contention. It might not be common enough to be fairly proven.
  • There appears to be a breakpoint in capability somewhere around TL-12.
  • TL dictates a maximum standard-efficiency hull size.
  • Carriers seem to get short shrift on EVERY version of Traveller.
    • Perhaps this is because smaller craft typically mean less capable craft.
I agree with most of these. Points:

-Carriers need to be dreadnaught-sized battlerider carriers to be remotely competitive. The riders need to be large enough to carry spinals, themselves. The quantity of spinals is wildly effective in taking down the dreadnaughts in an enemy group.
-Limiting a 500,000-ton ship to one 14,000-ton weapon is silly. And it's hardly spinal at that point. It's spinal for a 30,000-ton battlerider. It's smaller, proportionally than a barbette for a 100-ton ship.
 
I agree with most of these. Points:

-Limiting a 500,000-ton ship to one 14,000-ton weapon is silly. And it's hardly spinal at that point. It's spinal for a 30,000-ton battlerider. It's smaller, proportionally than a barbette for a 100-ton ship.
RAW you get one spinal mount which is aimed primarily by aligning the craft itself. However, I can imagine a house rule variant that placed spinal mounts in huge turrets. Coming up with enough power for them would be the hard part.
 
RAW you get one spinal mount which is aimed primarily by aligning the craft itself. However, I can imagine a house rule variant that placed spinal mounts in huge turrets. Coming up with enough power for them would be the hard part.
If it's an issue for a power plant that's rated for a 20,000 ton ship, how hard can it be for a plant that can power a 500,000 ton ship?

Wet Navy Battleships (in RL) ranged from 10,000 tons to 65,000 tons according to wikipedia, and the average was about 32,000. Iowa, a giant, was 57,500 tons, but the big16-inch guns were 121 tons each, so about 2.5 percent of the ship's mass. Proportionally that's the size of a 5-ton barbette on a 200-ton ship, though they mounted nine in three turrets. That said, a TL13 Meson D is 14,000 tons (in Mongoose 2008, sorry, it's the only book I own). That Meson D mount is the same relative size as the battleship's gun when compared to a 500,000-ton Traveller dreadnaught: about 2.8%.

Spinals are not spinal, IMO, unless they take up more than a fifth of a ship's tonnage. That's the anime-esque visual it seems like the RAW were going for. The A-10 aircraft with the Avenger autocannon is probably closest in RL to a spinal-style mount. Wiki says the entire gun system represents about 16% of the aircraft's mass, so maybe 1/6 of a ship's mass makes a weapon spinal?

It seems wildly silly to me that a gun that's 2.8% of your mass, similar to a barbette on a smaller ship, is considered spinal, and supports the suggestion of considreing them as huge turrets.

The problem is spinals are a fixed size, and the game has made ships huge beyond the scope of sense. In RL, a battleship was about 10-20x the mass of a destroyer from that era. In Traveller, the wiki at TravellerRPG.com marks them as 1000-2499 tons, but further down calls that a 'Light Destroyer' and adds heavier destroyer classes. Some destroyer SDBs can mount spinals. A TL15 2000-ton destroyer SDB can mount a Spinal Meson A. And wouldn't that be a big surprise for an invading fleet! A battlerider carrier loaded with these could lay waste to enemy fleets. But Traveller dreadnaughts are 200x the tonnage of a destroyer, and we should expect a proportional increase in weapons. Alas, there -are- no bigger guns in the Traveller universe than the spinals, which are dwarfed by these huge ships. Again, this supports the idea of using the current catalog of tiny spinals as capital turrets.

I would also be totally alongside the idea of a 500,000-ton battleship with a 100,000-ton spinal mount, something like that deserves the name Spinal, even if it weighs more than 7 Meson D's. I imagine it hits like a death star's main weapon, which as I think about it, is just a huge spherical form factor dreadnaught with indeed, a single giant weapon. Alas, the death star, if it's the size of a small moon of 10km diameter, is about 37 billion d-tons. A 16% spinal on that would be over 6 billion d-tons, which is over 445,000 Spinal Meson D's. That, I think, would absolutely destroy Alderaan in one shot.

But that's a ton of houseruling craziness that has diverged from the main point, that the spinal mounts in RAW are not at all what the descriptive text claims when mounted in actual dreadnaughts and some revising ought to be done.
 
1. The problem I saw when the spacecraft design rules were being revised, was that you could have multiple spinal mounts.

2. Which didn't quite fit in with Chartered Space.

3. Using the Warthog as an example, I temporized and suggested the reason there's only one is that the hull can only handle so much recoil.

4. You could, in theory, place the spinal mount in a mechanism that rotates, probably elevates.

5. After all, how do you think deep site mesons align their guns with off planet targets?
 
If it's an issue for a power plant that's rated for a 20,000 ton ship, how hard can it be for a plant that can power a 500,000 ton ship?
It's not an issue of power, but length. Spinals form the spine of a ship in order to utilise the full length of the ship, see TNE.
The length of a ship (proportional to radius) varies much less than the volume or mass (proportional to radius cubed).

A spinal in a turret would be like putting an entire WWII destroyer as a "turret" on a battleship. It would be unwieldy...



The problem is spinals are a fixed size, and the game has made ships huge beyond the scope of sense.
Not in MgT2 or T5. In T5 weapons size varies with TL and range. In MgT2 there is only one spinal of each type, but that can be added as an increment increasing the power (damage) of the gun, i.e. a 7500 Dt gun does ~21000 damage, a 15000 Dt gun does ~42000 damage and so on.
 
While I agree with the title, not so much abotu explanations. I guess overall crew quality would be more important than those "few outstanding individuals" (one of my usual criticisms to CT:HG)
Agreed -- "Indespensible Men" as such, here, are an RPG artifact.

I could almost lampshade it as the high-skilled individual representing the cadre of skilled personnel with whom they train and work. That is, the Pilot-4 PC/NPC is what shows on the unit (ship) card, but it's not just that one dude -- it's the entire bridge crew (also of unusually high skill, it's just that they're not called out individually) that yields the skill bonus).
 
I could almost lampshade it as the high-skilled individual representing the cadre of skilled personnel with whom they train and work. That is, the Pilot-4 PC/NPC is what shows on the unit (ship) card, but it's not just that one dude -- it's the entire bridge crew (also of unusually high skill, it's just that they're not called out individually) that yields the skill bonus).

So, in your oppinion, if Nelson has gone to combat with a fully untrained crew, the performance of the ship would not have been affected?

Sure, but we are discussing an RPG, right?

Not really, in this thread... We're discussing how to manage the big ships in a setting given by an RPG, not the RPG itself
 
A brilliant admiral or captain will make a massive difference, but will not improve slow and inaccurate gunnery by a green crew.

Fully agreed (for a change ;)). That's why I've been advocating for a crew quality factor in HG since ages...
 
Fully agreed (for a change ;)). That's why I've been advocating for a crew quality factor in HG since ages...
Agreed, crew quality is an important factor. But the individual Admiral will also be an important factor.
Are you suggesting that Admiral Stvi is just as good as Admiral Djoulikian (FFW)?


It's in the context of an RPG, there will be skilled player characters floating around...
 
For the crazy die rolling I make it simple- no damage possible unless the weapon is higher then the armor, adjusted for range or kinetics.
Fully agreed (for a change ;)). That's why I've been advocating for a crew quality factor in HG since ages...
There is, it says the average crew skill is Skill-2 and has a formula for the tactics roll skill that can be applied to others.

Or you could lift the Striker troop quality costs and effects.
 
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