Book 2 Plus

[robject]

This has been done before. So for comment, here's mine.

For me, Book 2's primary limitation is that 5000 ton ships can't reach Jump 4 -- the requirement for XBoat liners. In my mind, Book 2 is for civilian ships, more or less: Military vessels (especially big ones) require High Guard.

So I reverse engineered the drive formulae in Book 2. Others on this board who have done this know about a big leap in power for price and volume starting around drive letter W or so. I've approximated these values with a set of formulae, which try to mimic the various efficiency scales.

Drives are rated in "units", where 100 "units" pushes a 100 ton craft at 1 G/allows a 100t craft a jump of 1 parsec/provides 1 EP.

          J-Drive   M-Drive     Power Plant   
           v  MCr    v   MCr    v   EP   MCr  
200   A   10  10     1    4     4    2    8   
400   B   15  20     3   12     7    4   16   
600   C   20  30     5   20    10    6   24   
800   D   25  40     7   28    13    8   32   
1000  E   30  50     9   36    16   10   40   
1200  F   35  60    11   44    19   12   48   
1400  G   40  70    13   52    22   14   56   
1600  H   45  80    15   60    25   16   64   
1800  J   50  90    17   68    28   18   72   
2000  K   55  100   19   76    31   20   80   
2200  L   60  110   21   84    34   22   88   
2400  M   65  120   23   92    37   24   96   
2600  N   70  130   25  100    40   26  104   
2800  P   75  140   27  108    43   28  112   
3000  Q   80  150   29  116    46   30  120   
3200  R   85  160   31  124    49   32  128   
3400  S   90  170   33  132    52   34  136   
3600  T   95  180   35  140    55   36  144   
3800  U   100 190   37  148    58   38  152   
4000  V   105 200   39  156    61   40  160   
4250      106 201   40  160    62   43  162   
4500      107 203   40  160    63   45  164   
4750      108 204   41  164    63   48  166   
5000  W   110 205   41  164    64   50  168   
5250      111 206   42  168    65   53  170   
5500      112 208   42  168    66   55  172   
5750      113 209   43  172    66   58  174   
6000  X   115 210   43  172    67   60  176   
6500      116 213   44  176    69   65  180   
7000      117 215   45  180    70   70  184   
7500      118 218   46  184    72   75  188   
8000  Y   120 220   47  188    73   80  192   
8500      121 223   48  192    75   85  196   
9000      121 225   49  196    76   90  200   
9500      122 228   50  200    78   95  204   
10000 Y2  123 230   51  204    79  100  208   
11000     124 235   53  212    82  110  216   
12000 Z   125 240   55  220    85  120  224   
13000     126 245   57  228    88  130  232   
14000 MA  128 250   59  236    91  140  240   
15000     129 255   61  244    94  150  248   
16000 MB  130 260   63  252    97  160  256   
17000     131 265   65  260   100  170  264   
18000 MC  133 270   67  268   103  180  272   
19000     134 275   69  276   106  190  280   
20000 MD  135 280   71  284   109  200  288

     A B C D E F G H J K L M N P Q R S T U V W X Y Y2 Z MA MB MC MD
 100 2 4 6 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  - -  -  -  -
 200 1 2 3 4 5 6 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  - -  -  -  -
 400 - 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 - - - - - - - - - - -  - -  -  -  -
 600 - - 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 3 4 4 4 5 5 5 6 6 6 - - - -  - -  -  -  -
 800 - - - 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 5 6 - - -  - -  -  -  -
1000 - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 4 5 6 - -  - -  -  -  -
2000 - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 3 4 5  6 -  -  -  -
3000 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 3  4 4  5  6  6
4000 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 2 2  3 3  4  4  5
5000 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 2  2 2  3  3  4

[/QUOTE]

 

[Golan2072]

Looks good - thumbs up!

But remember that the truely big limitation of LBB2 is the fact that each weapon fires individually - so 10 triple turrets mean THIRTY attack rolls per turn... Adress this and you've made LBB2 one of the best design and combat systems ever.

 

[mike wightman]

And each of those turrets will have a different gunner...

Above a certain number it's probably a good idea to just resolve the dice rolls statistically.

Only roll for PC gunners.

 

[Supplement Four]

The Star Wars RPG (WEG version) had a great system for this kind of stuff (all those turbo lasers on the giant Star Destroyers).

There is a chart that you cross-reference the number of weapons you are firing at a single target (you can also use this chart when 30 stormtroopers are firing at one character). The chart gives you a to-hit and damage bonus for a single to-hit attack throw.

Would you do better if you fired each weapon individually? Absolutely. But, this chart was nice in that it really sped up game play (one attack roll for a Star Destroyer per target--you just had to determine how many targets the SD would or could fire at), and it provided a nice bonus to hit (and damage) for multiple attacks.

There was also this nifty scale table that gave bouses and penalties when ships of different scale were in combat against each other (Fighter scale vs Star Destroyer scale.....Fighters vs. men on the ground...etc).

Now, that type of system led to the overall "Star Wars" feeling with thousands of blaster bolts flying around--but something like that could be adapted for Traveller.

Just an idea.


If I remember correctly (it's been a while, and I don't have my books in front of me), you got a +1DM to the attack throw for every other weapon being fired. At +3, it switched to a bonus die.

So, the progression was +1DM, +2DM, +1D6...

In Traveller terms, this would be: 2D6 to hit. +1DM is X number of weapons firing. 2D6 +2 if X number of weapons firing. 3D6 is X number of weapons firing. 3D6 +1 if X number....3D6 +2 if X number.....4D6 is X number.

That would have to be modified for Traveller, but you get the idea.

 

[robject]

Hey WJP, I'm not a High Guard guy, but that sounds a lot like the way batteries are handled in HG. Can anyone verify or correct me?

It also sounds similar to the ultra-high-scale combat matrix in Mercenary. Sort of.


Mmmm, and thinking about ten triple turrets makes my head ache. I don't know the best way of handling this (probably HG, eh?). And this has been discussed before, from people who know these systems better than I (Oz and Sigg spring to mind).

But I like the sound of the Star Wars system.

What I'm thinking of is: to shorten combat, grouping guns by gunner skill into a block of ten, and a 1d6-1 roll.

For lasers, DM+gunner skill, DM-2 sand.

For missiles, DM+gunner skill, DM -(1d6-1) for every 3 anti-missile lasers fired.

The result is the number of hits inflicted. Roll once on the damage location table and apply all hits there.

Too much?

 

[parmasson]

^Piff, High Guard (dismissive wave of hand) good for some but not for me.

If the PCs are facing a 2000 ton battleship then they have been very naughty indeed.

Only roll for PC gunners

Yep, way to go. Everybody else gets resolved with 2D and a few modifiers. I would say make them roll for each shot.

Well the simple answer would be to not allow the PCs to get their hands on a ship with 30+ turrets.

None of my PC combat has gone above the 800 ton mark. When they spotted the 800 ton ship they ran away saving me the hassle of rolling it out. Bottom line is I don't worry about it because it doesn't happen.

 

[robject]

I agree with ^. At the moment, the issue I'm facing is peaceful traffic along the Xboat routes. If I want 5000 ton liners with Book 2, I'm going to need a few more drives. Hence the table.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by robject:
But I like the sound of the Star Wars system.

The Star Wars 2nd Edition, Revised & Expanded rules set is hands-down-by-a-distant-long-shot the best out-of-the box rpg rules set I've ever come across.

I'm a rule tweaker, and I hardly touched WEG's D6 Star Wars R&E rules set.

It is simply fantastic. Grade "A". Incredible.

I was very sorry to see it get replaced by Star Wars d20.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Kurega Gikur:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Only roll for PC gunners

Yep, way to go. Everybody else gets resolved with 2D and a few modifiers. I would say make them roll for each shot.</font>[/QUOTE]I've never actually played with High Guard, so I don't know if I like HG or not.

But, for space fights with large starships with multiple weapons/turrets, I'd like a single attack throw for each type of weapon fired....Maybe a single attack throw for each type of weapon per target.

That's it. This ship fires it's lasers at one, two, three targets. Then, the ship fires it's missiles. And, we move on.

Quick.

What about using difficulty levels (or +2DM for groups of weapons).

I'm thinking of some logarithmic scale where increasing numbers of weapons get you +2DM.

Just off the top of my head, something like...

1 weapon nets you your unmodified attack throw.

2 weapons net you a +1DM

4 weapons net you a +2DM

8 weapons net you a +4DM

16 weapons net you a +8DM


You can play with the numbers of weapons and the DMs...I was just expressing an idea. DMs progress, as the number of weapons increases, in the +1, +2, +4, +8, +16, +32 sequence.

You could also limit the bonus by using a "point of diminishing returns" rule.

Something like: The number of weapons that can be brought to bear on a 100 ton vessel is 10. You can bring 11 weapons, or even 100 weapons to fire upon it, but your DM will never be higher than that for 10 weapons. (Just an idea using 10% of the hull displacement).

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by robject:
What I'm thinking of is: to shorten combat, grouping guns by gunner skill into a block of ten, and a 1d6-1 roll.

Robject,

What about the Trillion Credit Squadron method? This is a similar system to that I described about Star Wars.

Check out pg. 15-16 of Adventure 5.

This might suit your needs.

 

[Ptah]

Good ideas all. I have to agree with KG on most PC ship scale combat. Roll for each hit, although I might group by turret per on of the suggestions above,-maybe a player option + to hit if, e.g., three lasers in a turret, OR a + to damage rolls. Not too up on LBB2 combat however.

edit The reason I like a lot of rolls for a PC encounter, is if they really want to square off with a 30 laser ships sitting there making roll after roll will really impress on them the mess they've gotten themselves into more than one big hit IMHO. end edit
HG has some of what you are looking for, but here is a modified HG approach which incorporates the geometric progression. Just some general ideas, the modification details are a little more, so don't focus so much on the exact numbers. For example, my "1 weapon" is more akin to a fully loaded triple turret.

Weapon system ratings are, in general, as follows:

1 weapon = rating 1
2 weapons = rating 2
4 weapons = rating 3
8 weapons = rating 4
16 weapons = rating 5
32 weapons = rating 6
64 weapons = rating 7
etc..

One idea then is the base damage to most systems equals rating minus armor, except vulnerable surface ones maybe like drives, sensors, etc.

In a ship listing, there is one number for laser rating, e.g., 6. It's all the lasers you got combined into one number. You can split this up among more than one target, (e.g. two 5s, a 5, and two 4s) at a DM to hit penalty (the more targets the greater the DM). You can not split this up if you fire on the same target, i.e., only one roll for a given weapon type per target.

Just another idea.

WJP, the Star Wars (WEG version) idea sounds interesting. It reminds me of the Squad Leader combat strength ratio approach. There it was definitively better to group fire.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by WJP:
The Star Wars RPG (WEG version) had a great system for this kind of stuff (all those turbo lasers on the giant Star Destroyers).

There is a chart that you cross-reference the number of weapons you are firing at a single target (you can also use this chart when 30 stormtroopers are firing at one character). The chart gives you a to-hit and damage bonus for a single to-hit attack throw.

This is very close to the high-level combat matrix in LBB4 (Mercenary).

 

[aramis]

SWRPG2 (Not R&E) is very much like Merc
SWRPG2R&E simplified to far fewer tables... and still has the system, just less granularity.

Excellent system.

 

[mike wightman]

Could the total number of weapons being fired be treated as an attack factor on the FFW/IE tables?

The roll of a die would then give you the number of hits to roll damage for.

die      total attack strength
roll  1  3  6 12 18 24 30 36 42 48
 1    -  -  -  1  2  3  4  5  6  7
 2    -  -  -  2  3  4  5  6  7  8
 3    -  -  1  2  4  5  6  7  8  9
 4    -  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9
 5    -  1  2  3  5  6  7  8  9 10
 6    1  2  3  4  6  7  8  9 10 11

The 1d6 roll replaces the roll to hit.

The above could be changed to a 2d6 roll:

die      total attack strength
roll  1  3  6 12 18 24 30 36 42 48
 2    -  -  -  1  2  3  4  5  6  7
 3    -  -  -  2  3  4  5  6  7  8
 4    -  -  1  2  4  5  6  7  8  9
 5    -  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9
 6    -  1  2  3  5  6  7  8  9 10
 7    1  2  3  4  6  7  8  9 10 11
 8    1  2  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11
 9    1  2  4  6  7  8  9 10 11 12
10    1  2  4  7  8  9 10 11 12 13
11    1  2  5  8  9 10 11 12 12 14
12    1  3  5  9 10 11 12 13 14 15

 

[The Oz]

Nice tables, Sigg. I like the 2d6 table better.

 

[robject]

Yep, I think this is the right direction.

Now, would you go the HG route, and add a 'to penetrate' roll for getting past sandcasters, or use sand as a -DM?

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by The Oz:
Nice tables, Sigg. I like the 2d6 table better.

Thanks Oz

I should point out that I have done no statistical analysis on the numbers - I've just copied the original and then extended it to look right

I'd use it by taking rolling 2d6 and then look down the table at the total attack strength closest to the number of weapons firing, rounding down to the nearest number. I'd add to that the result for the AS 1 or 3 entry to make up the total number of weapons fired.

e.g. 3kt warship fires all fifteen of its triple laser turrets at a fleeing corsair. That's 45 lasers. The 2d6 roll is 6, so the 42 entry gives 9 hits and the 3 entry gives 2 hits, so a total of 11 hits are scored.
Start rolling damage locations

e.g. the Allamu fires its eight double laser turrets at a Shiva class frigate - 16 lasers in total. The gunnery officer gets lucky and rolls a total of 11 on the 2d6. The 12 entry indicates 8 hits, the 3 entry gives a further 2, and the 1 entry gives 1 more. Total of 11 damage rolls.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by robject:
Yep, I think this is the right direction.

Now, would you go the HG route, and add a 'to penetrate' roll for getting past sandcasters, or use sand as a -DM?

Hmm, good question.

I'd probably opt for sandcasters giving a -3DM on the above table (note that pulse lasers should get a -1 on their roll).

Alternatively, how about the defender totals his sandcasters and uses the above table to give the number of laser hits that are countered?

 

[mike wightman]

Here are the extended versions derived from Invasion Earth:

die                total attack strength
roll  1  3  6 12 18 24 30 36 42 48 54 60 66 72 78 84 90
 1    -  -  -  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14
 2    -  -  -  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
 3    -  -  1  2  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
 4    -  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
 5    -  1  2  3  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
 6    1  2  3  4  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18

And the 2d6 version:

die                total attack strength
roll  1  3  6 12 18 24 30 36 42 48 54 60 66 72 78 84 90
 2    -  -  -  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14
 3    -  -  -  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
 4    -  -  1  2  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
 5    -  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
 6    -  1  2  3  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
 7    1  2  3  4  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
 8    1  2  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
 9    1  2  4  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
10    1  2  4  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
11    1  2  5  8  9 10 11 12 12 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
12    1  3  5  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

 

[robject]

I like the "sand counterattack" rolls done by the defender. Very good idea.

Sigg, I think I really like this.