Book 2 Plus

[The Oz]

If you do use the "Sand counterattack" idea the defender should have to commit X number of sandcasters to counter the enemy attack before the attack is rolled.

So if the attacker says that she is firing 10 triple laser turrets the defender has to say how many (of the number available) sandcasters are being allocated to stop that attack, even before the attack dice are rolled.

This way the defender can gamble and undercommit hoping for bad attack dice and/or good defense dice, or the defender can throw enough sand at the attack (assuming enough is available) to be sure of stopping the assault. Of course, throwing that much sand might not leave sand for stopping any other attacks in that turn....

 

[robject]

Agree totally. Great job, guys, I'm liking this more and more! And Sigg, the numbers can't be off by more than a mark or two max.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

The Oz, I think they would have to declare even before the attacker announces. Otherwise, they have information no defender will actually know....

 

[The Oz]

Fritz88:

I think you could have the attacker declare the size of the incoming attack and then the defender declares the "sand counterattack". That would be simulating the fire control radar/lidars of the laser turrets locking on just before the laser pulse arrives, which gives the defending computers just enough time to deploy the sand.

You could go either way. The main idea is that the defender has to judge just how much sand to use and how much to save for possible future attacks.

Sigg:

Have you thought of extending the tables above and below the results of just 2d6, to allow for modifiers? Have the possible die roll results be from -4 to 18, and you get an even better range of results. Something like this, maybe?

die                total attack strength
roll  1  3  6 12 18 24 30 36 42 48 54 60 66 72 78 84 90
-4    -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8
-3    -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9
-2    -  -  -  -  -  -  -  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10
-1    -  -  -  -  -  -  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11
 0    -  -  -  -  -  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12
 1    -  -  -  -  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13
 2    -  -  -  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14
 3    -  -  -  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
 4    -  -  1  2  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
 5    -  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
 6    -  1  2  3  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
 7    1  2  3  4  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
 8    1  2  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
 9    1  2  4  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
10    1  2  4  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
11    1  2  5  8  9 10 11 12 12 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
12    1  3  5  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
13    1  3  5 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
14    1  3  6 10 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
15    1  3  6 11 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
16    1  3  6 12 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26

 

[robject]

Assuming a basic 8+ chance to hit is about 40%.

This means, on the average,

Guns firing     Avg hits
    1              "0"
    3               1
    6               2
   12               5
   18               7
   24              9-10
   30              12
   36              14
   42              17
   48              19
   54              21-22
   60              24
   66              26
   72              29
   78              31
   84              33-34
   90              36

 

[mike wightman]

I knew the numbers in FFW/IE were on the low side of things

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by The Oz:
Sigg:

Have you thought of extending the tables above and below the results of just 2d6, to allow for modifiers? Have the possible die roll results be from -4 to 18, and you get an even better range of results. Something like this, maybe?
<snip>

Nice work Oz.

That was going to be the next thing, but now I can just cut'n paste yours

A possible alternative is to move the original numbers down and make up some higher results more in line with the true statistics rob has given us.

die                total attack strength
roll  1  3  6 12 18 24 30 36 42 48 54 60 66 72 78 84 90
 0    -  -  -  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14
 1    -  -  -  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
 2    -  -  1  2  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
 3    -  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
 4    -  1  2  3  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
 5    1  2  3  4  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
 6    1  2  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
 7    1  2  4  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
 8    1  2  4  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
 9    1  2  5  8  9 10 11 12 12 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
10    1  3  5  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
11    1  3  5 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
12    1  3  6 10 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
13    1  3  6 11 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
14    1  3  6 12 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26

 

[The Oz]

Nice work, Sigg.

And that table can be used (with appropriate modifiers) for missiles, energy weapons, and particle beams, too.

Now we need a quick way to handle 20+ damage rolls. One way is to use a statistical distribution, like this:

Divide hits into groups of 12 (any remaining hits should be rolled normally on the Hit Locations table). Each group of 12 produces the following hits.

4 Hull
2 Hold
1 Fuel
1 Computer
2 Drives (roll 1d6; 1-3=Jump Drive, 4-5=Maneuver Drive, 6=Powerplant)
2 Special (roll 1d6; 1-5=Turret, 6=Critical)

This is not completely statistically correct, but it's pretty close.

Or we could use a table that has shifts to reflect the use of Target programs, like this:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">2d6 Hits
Roll Scored
2 1 Hull, 1 Hold, 4 Fuel, 1 Computer, 4 Drive, 1 Special
3 2 Hull, 1 Hold, 3 Fuel, 1 Computer, 4 Drive, 1 Special
4 2 Hull, 1 Hold, 3 Fuel, 1 Computer, 3 Drive, 2 Special
5 3 Hull, 1 Hold, 2 Fuel, 1 Computer, 3 Drive, 2 Special
6 3 Hull, 2 Hold, 2 Fuel, 1 Computer, 2 Drive, 2 Special
7 4 Hull, 2 Hold, 1 Fuel, 1 Computer, 2 Drive, 2 Special
8 3 Hull, 3 Hold, 1 Fuel, 1 Computer, 2 Drive, 2 Special
9 2 Hull, 3 Hold, 1 Fuel, 2 Computer, 2 Drive, 2 Special
10 2 Hull, 2 Hold, 1 Fuel, 2 Computer, 2 Drive, 3 Special
11 1 Hull, 3 Hold, 1 Fuel, 3 Computer, 1 Drive, 3 Special
12 1 Hull, 2 Hold, 1 Fuel, 3 Computer, 1 Drive, 4 Special</pre>[/QUOTE]"Drive" and "Special" hits would be treated just like the statistical distribution: you'd roll 1d6 to see exactly what got hit. Note that the line for a roll of "7" is the same as the statistical distribution given above.

A ship using the "Select" program could be given modifiers on this table: if aiming at the Engineering section they get negative modifiers (perhaps -2?) and if aiming at the Main section they get positive modifiers (+2?).

 

[robject]

Oz, I like the table. Can it be pruned to make it slightly narrower, or would that be too annoying and statistically wrong?

 

[mike wightman]

I like it too Oz.

Rather than DMs for select, could it be adjusted so that a roll of 1d6 is used if target is used, 2d6 if it isn't.
Alternatively 1d6+6 for the use of select, 2d6 otherwiswe.

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by robject:
Oz, I like the table. Can it be pruned to make it slightly narrower, or would that be too annoying and statistically wrong?

You could always just use abbreviations;

Hu=Hull
Ho=Hold
Co=Computer
Fu=Fuel
Dr=Drives
Sp=Special

Or you might like this version of the table.

2d6	Hits Scored
Roll	Hull Hold Fuel Computer Drive Special
 2	 1    1    4      1       4     1
 3	 2    1    3      1       4     1
 4	 2    1    3      1       3     2
 5	 3    1    2      1       3     2
 6	 3    2    2      1       2     2
 7	 4    2    1      1       2     2
 8	 3    3    1      1       2     2
 9	 2    3    1      2       2     2
10	 2    2    1      2       2     3
11	 1    3    1      3       1     3
12	 1    2    1      3       1     4

How's that?

 

[robject]

Prettier!

 

[mike wightman]

I like it

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by The Oz:
If you do use the "Sand counterattack" idea the defender should have to commit X number of sandcasters to counter the enemy attack before the attack is rolled.

So if the attacker says that she is firing 10 triple laser turrets the defender has to say how many (of the number available) sandcasters are being allocated to stop that attack, even before the attack dice are rolled.

This way the defender can gamble and undercommit hoping for bad attack dice and/or good defense dice, or the defender can throw enough sand at the attack (assuming enough is available) to be sure of stopping the assault. Of course, throwing that much sand might not leave sand for stopping any other attacks in that turn....

I missed this the first time round

This is also how I'd do it, thanks again Oz

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:

Originally posted by The Oz:
[qb] If you do use the "Sand counterattack" idea the defender should have to commit X number of sandcasters to counter the enemy attack before the attack is rolled.

I never have gotten a good idea on how sandcasters really work.

Do they detect an incoming missile and fire sand in it's projected path?

I asked LKW this once on the TML, and all he said was, "I think Marc's idea was that they operate like depth charges."

Which told me he didn't really know either. The unit fires off several cannisters that explode spreading sand around the ship?

I know they're supposed to form clouds around the ship, but do they do it in one missile or cannister? Or is the ship supposed to fire several missiles/cannisters in a round in order to cover the ship?

Or, is a sandcaster more like a firehouse, blowing sand?

Hm?

 

[aramis]

My interp has been that they operate by:

1) the beam-pointer is detected, or the missile is detected.

2-vs Lasers) the sand cloud is held in a clump, at TL's 12+ with gravitic beams, and put between ship and source of beam

2-vs Missile) the ship puts itself on the side of the cloud so that the missile will encounter the sand prisms (0.01g or so) while inbound. These damage the missile, especially the sensors, by pure kinetic impact, relying upon the KE of the missile.

2-vs Ground) The ship uses the cloud launcher to hurl those centigram prisms out to several dozen meters... resulting in a shotgun-like burst, but filling a 30 degree cone.

I have always assumed that the canister itself is not launched, but its contents are, and by a mechanism in the sandcaster. At lower TL's, it's probably a wheel-sling system firing out a hose, and relying upon kinetic dispersal. Higher TL systems allow limited control via gravitic tractor and repulser systems, and use a gravitic accelerator tube to launch at speeds of 20-30m/s. Mostly like a snow-fan on a movie set, rather than a firehose, but clearly similar in principal.

the ship adjusts momentum to take benefit of the cloud.

Loren's depth charge comment is about 180 out from this view.

 

[Golan2072]

A few previous threads about improving LBB2:
- Pure Book 2: Stocking the Universe
- Cherry picking LBB2 versions...
- High Guard 3 (Not LBB2 but very good ideas)
- Additional CPU programs for CT
- CIC for Book 2 ships
- Starship Programs: Load-Outs, New Programs
- NON Canon thoughts, Ship's Grav in LBB123
- CT starship range band combat
- Sensorlopes & Book 2 space combat
- New Book 2 Space Combat Rules
- Sandcasters.... How do they WORK?
- Classic Traveller Sensor Rules
- Book 2 Small Craft Design
- The Commercial Efficiency Ratio (CER)
- Slaving Weapons
- Book 2, version 3
- Large Book 2 Ships
- LBB2 and Jump-6
- Drive potential table - filling in the missing hulls
- Proto-Traveller
- Space Combat
- Armour in LBB2 Combat
- Additional Ship Components in LBB-2 Designs
- Remote Sensor Drones in CT
- Armour for LBB2 - again
- LBB2 Naval Doctrines

If you know of other useful threads not mentioned above, please post them

I think I'll go data-mining soon!

 

[jawillroy]

A most excellent compendium indeed!

 

[jawillroy]

I think that the order of phases in LBB2 combat precludes any kind of "responsive" sand-casting: My understanding is that sand gets launched during the ordnance phase, and takes effect the following ordnance phase - so if you're under fire, you're not going to get any protection for a whole turn while the sand's deploying. In this respect, I think the rules support the depthcharge notion.

But I sympathize: sandcasters are one of the Great Maddening Mysteries of LBB2.

I remember my great disappointment with HG when I first ordered it all them years ago: I'd hoped that it might clear up the ambiguities of sand & missile behavior within the context of the book 2 combat system, but instead it introduced a whole new system of only tangetial compatibility...

MAYDAY and Special Supplement 3 only added to the problem for me: while both provide answers for the missile questions, they do so in an overly complex way - and SS3 opened a whole new can of worms with sensor types and all. Both add to the complexity of sand, as well (indicating that it affects missiles.)

MAYDAY shed some light on sand behavior, indicating that a sand cloud remains in play as long as the launching ship maintains its vector: My translation of this to LBB2 (given that MAYDAY takes place at a much broader scale, 1 hex per light second) is that sandclouds don't dissipate at a significant rate, and stay in play following their initial vector.

Of course, MAYDAY doesn't say whether or not sand is stackable. But then, MAYDAY only allows you to keep one missile going at a time, so there's only so far you can take MAYDAY in terms of interpreting Marc's intent behind book 2 combat. Disappointing for me, in that I'd been hoping for a straight hex-port of LBB2 rules, with clearer sand and missile rules.

I do cherrypick a few things from MAYDAY for LBB2: for instance, MAYDAY's treatment of maneuver, maneuver/evade and auto/evade (can't be run at the same time; M/E allows evasion with maneuver at less one gee, A/E allows evasion but no maneuver at all)

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Imperium Festerium:
I think that the order of phases in LBB2 combat precludes any kind of "responsive" sand-casting: My understanding is that sand gets launched during the ordnance phase, and takes effect the following ordnance phase - so if you're under fire, you're not going to get any protection for a whole turn while the sand's deploying. In this respect, I think the rules support the depthcharge notion.

But I sympathize: sandcasters are one of the Great Maddening Mysteries of LBB2.

I remember my great disappointment with HG when I first ordered it all them years ago: I'd hoped that it might clear up the ambiguities of sand & missile behavior within the context of the book 2 combat system, but instead it introduced a whole new system of only tangetial compatibility...

MAYDAY and Special Supplement 3 only added to the problem for me: while both provide answers for the missile questions, they do so in an overly complex way - and SS3 opened a whole new can of worms with sensor types and all. Both add to the complexity of sand, as well (indicating that it affects missiles.)

MAYDAY shed some light on sand behavior, indicating that a sand cloud remains in play as long as the launching ship maintains its vector: My translation of this to LBB2 (given that MAYDAY takes place at a much broader scale, 1 hex per light second) is that sandclouds don't dissipate at a significant rate, and stay in play following their initial vector.

So, essentially, Sand serves as some kind of a "shield" for the casting ship, spread around it in a cloud with the vector it had when casting it? I like that - easy to represent by a counter.

What is the effect of more than one Sandcaster turret? a wider "sphere" of Sand? And could ships protect other (close-by) ships with their Sandcasters?