Classless T20

[mike wightman]

Has anyone ever tried to make a classless version of T20?
Other than Hunter's call for interested parties a long time ago, of which we have heard nothing more

 

[Remul]

This is something I'd like to see.

I think the first step would be to find the balance between skills (class skills and skill points), combat aptitude (BAB and HD type) and feats.

I'm thinking some kind of point buy system. This will give X number of points for gaining a character level. We'd need multiple tables with point values for each stat.

Here's my vision of what the tables would look like:

Total number of 'Class Skills' (note: Class skills can be added but never taken away. This means that once a character gains a level and has 10 class skill that 10 is now the minimun that can be taken in subsequant character levels.

Total Class Skills | Point Cost
---------------------------------
4 | ??
5 | ??
6 | ??
7 | ??
. | ??
. | ??
. | ??
24 | ??


(A table may not be needed here if a '1 for 1' relationship can be established between Skill Points and the Point Cost per Skill Point. But, until that '1 for 1' is set in stone the distinction needs to be maintaned.)

Skill Points | Point Cost
---------------------------
2 | ??
3 | ??
4 | ??
5 | ??
6 | ??
7 | ??
8 | ??


(Feats should be heavy on point cost. And extremely heavy if more than one feat is taken per level.)

Feat | Point Cost
-------------------
1 | Y
2 | 3*Y
3 | 9*Y


(Base Attack Bonus is more difficult. I think it should be in the same table as Hit Die Type and the two are purchased together. This may need more thought, though.)

HD and BAB | Point Cost
----------------------------
d4 / +0 BAB | ??
d4 / +1 BAB | ??
d6 / +0 BAB | ??
d6 / +1 BAB | ??
d8 / +0 BAB | ??
d8 / +1 BAB | ??
d10 / +0 BAB | ??
d10 / +1 BAB | ??

 

[clementk]

Mutants and Masterminds. Use the attack and defense skills (3 per IIRC). Swap out M&M feats and skills where desired with T20's. Power levels are optional. I did a test conversion from T20 once and it mapped very well.

BESM d20 using just one class (Adventurer?). Again point based with combat skills. The bulk of the rules are online here:
http://www.guardiansorder.com/games/d20/srd/

There are some other options, mainly pdfs of rpgnow.com, but I’ve not looked at them closely yet.

 

[Malenfant]

I think BESM d20 uses that approach... you may want to check it out.

That said, there is a problem in that someone will probably come along and say "but Traveller with no classes isn't really Traveller!". I don't agree with that sentiment at all myself though - for me Traveller is the setting, not the rules or the chargen.

 

[Remul]

Here's a little spreadsheet I just whipped up. It's designed to try and balance the points out for these tables. It currently has all the point values that I've been testing. Feel free to modify it and try to balance them out yourself.

This point system currently assumes that a character gains 4X the number of skill points at first level, starting feats [like Armor Proficiency(Light), Weapon Proficiency (Marksman), etc.] will be gained from a modified version of Prior History. It also assumes that the table on page 35 of the THB still applies (Feats and ability increases based on character level).

http://www.leager.com/Traveller20/ClasslessT20/

 

[Remul]

Maybe I should stop hurting my brain and take a look at Mutants & Masterminds and BESM d20. Thanks for the input Casey and Malenfant.

 

[tjoneslo]

I can recommend some others as well.

From the RPGNow list:
The versatile Hero. This is essentially a generic version of the D20 Modern base classes.

Point Buy Number is a classless and leveless system for D20 Modern. It uses Experince points to buy the various abilities.

Buy the Numbers is the original system for D&D.

There is a Dr Spunj's Class Balance system discussed on EnWorld for a while, but I can't find the original message any more. It became a classless level-based build your own system.

Of all of these and the others, I liked the BESM rules best.

 

[GypsyComet]

M&M and BESM D20 are both good alternatives, though my own preference is to abandon levels along with classes, or keep both. I may have to look at some of the other alternates mentioned above.

 

[clementk]

Point Buy Number is derived from Buy the Numbers IIRC. I don't have either so no idea on overlap. I believe both have been reviewed online.

M&M's power levels are suggestions for maximums and party balance and don't have to be followed. Similar to how most point based games have a list of point levels but with maximums added. As for BESM d20/Anime d20 SRD I believe you can just use the point costs for skills, feats, etc. and not use levels either though I've not used BESM d20 yet.

Forgot to mention F20, mainly because it folds in more than just d20, isn't directly as compatible from what I can tell, and is more cinematic as is than T20. It is an interesting experiment in progress, is fairly cheap, and all proceeds go to a good cause. (on RPGNow)

 

[Vanguard]

Originally posted by Malenfant:

That said, there is a problem in that someone will probably come along and say "but Traveller with no classes isn't really Traveller!". I don't agree with that sentiment at all myself though - for me Traveller is the setting, not the rules or the chargen.

I never considered the older versions of traveller to have classes, What sets Trav systems apart from other systems to me is prior history. T20 shows us that its easy to separate prior history from classes.

If we get rid of classes, levels really lose their importance to me. So one of the systems where XP directly buys other character abilities would be best. (rather than XP->levels and you buy abilities per level)

We might want to have some special abilities (some of the class-specific feats) only available for purchase with xp gained from certain careers.

If we want to keep the existing prestige classes (ancients hunter, ace pilot, etc) we might want to turn them into "prestige careers".

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Vanguard:
I never considered the older versions of traveller to have classes, What sets Trav systems apart from other systems to me is prior history. T20 shows us that its easy to separate prior history from classes.

If we get rid of classes, levels really lose their importance to me. So one of the systems where XP directly buys other character abilities would be best. (rather than XP->levels and you buy abilities per level)

We might want to have some special abilities (some of the class-specific feats) only available for purchase with xp gained from certain careers.

If we want to keep the existing prestige classes (ancients hunter, ace pilot, etc) we might want to turn them into "prestige careers". [/QB]

Sure, but T20 practically requires PCs to multiclass if they're to be well-rounded - so much so that IMO having separate classes is actually rendered pointless. If your PC ends up a 3rd level Rogue/2nd level Marine/4th level Academic combo or whatever, wouldn't it have just been easier to skip a load of hassle and just make a classless character with the same skills?

Personally, I view Prior History generally as a bug, not a feature. It's an archaic chargen system that should have been dumped a long time ago IMO, and indeed most games have long since dumped that kind of approach and let players make the characters they want to make rather than be constrained by random dice rolls. And really, thinking about it, my beef is with people equating Prior History with Traveller, not classes.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
That said, there is a problem in that someone will probably come along and say "but Traveller with no classes isn't really Traveller!". I don't agree with that sentiment at all myself though - for me Traveller is the setting, not the rules or the chargen.

Bwahaha!

That's the funniest thing I've ever heard.

Traveller was, of course, along with Runequest, one of the first RPGs to not have classes.

If anyone ever did say "but Traveller with no classes isn't really Traveller!", you would be entitled to poke them with a stick.

 

[Malenfant]

Well, functionally the careers aren't really any different to classes - they're things you take in order to get a certain skill/equipment set. IIRC Runequest didn't have anything like that at all - everyone just picked skills from the same set, didn't they? (I've only seen RQ3e, so that might have changed significantly since RQ1e)

And as I mentioned earlier, I was getting confused

. I meant that people would complain about the lack of prior history rather than classes.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Well, functionally the careers aren't really any different to classes - they're things you take in order to get a certain skill/equipment set. IIRC Runequest didn't have anything like that at all - everyone just picked skills from the same set, didn't they? (I've only seen RQ3e, so that might have changed significantly since RQ1e)

Second edition RQ (I never go to see first) had an optional prior experience system.

In any case, both it and Traveller were the first (popular) systems to be based on skills, rather than levels. That's probably a better description than saying they didn't have classes.

On the other hand, in actual play there wasn't the same division of labour between characters that you had in early DnD, where Fighters fought, Magic Users used Magic, Thieves scouted, and so on. Or at least the separation of functions was much weaker.

Yes, you would say that your character was a five-term Scout, but it didn't mean quite as much as saying he was a fifth-level Thief.

Character stereotyping in Runequest tended to go by cult membership and a character's status within them: "my character is a Humakti Sword Priest" (or whatever).

Even point based games are prone to this too, though. A Champions player is likely to say: "my character is a 450 point Brick", and other players will have a general feel for the character, allowing for differing campaign power levels.

Whatever. I still stand by my statement that anyone who calls Traveller a class-based game should be *thwack*ed.

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Has anyone ever tried to make a classless version of T20?
Other than Hunter's call for interested parties a long time ago, of which we have heard nothing more

Hmmmpf...

Ok so you want to see my working stuff for classless T20? Well it's not 'truly' classless, but it's pretty close.

Requires Moot Subscription:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Moot/Playtest/Stuff/

Of course this is not to be posted anywhere else, given to others, etc...

Hunter

 

[mike wightman]

Thanks Hunter

Will it be ok to talk about the document here, or should I take the discussion to the moot forum?

I'm guessing the latter of the two.

 

[mike wightman]

p.s.
I've opened a discussion in the moot pending Hunter's answer

 

[TKalbfus]

I have a few questions:

Does it take a long time to create a character with the point buy system?

How do you describe a classless character in a nutshell?

Also with a point buy system, how do you prevent PCs and especially GMs from optimizing characters for a specific situation?

For instance suppose you wanted an opponent for the PCs who is good with a rifle, so the GM puts all the NPCs points into marksmanship and into abilities that enhance his ability to shoot a rifle and nothing else, and suppose there is a whol platoon full of such optimized characters. The PCs then hop into a car and drive away, but none of the NPCs can drive since they've spent their entire careers doing nothing but practising marksmanship just for this very specific encounter with the PCs, they have 3s in all ability scores except dexterity and an 18 in dexterity and the GM did not anticipate a need for the NPCs to drive a car.

Or how about a Bar scene where a brawl breaks out and all the NPC are olympic atheletes whove done nothing their entire lives except practise brawling?

When you can optimize your character with a point buy system, its tempting to maximize the abilities you think your character will need and minimize those other abilities that you don't anticipate needing. What you may end up with is a bunch of extreme characters.

In a PC party each character has a role to fill, if you have 8 characters, then each character might maximize a different ability, one guy will have an 18 strength to do all the melee, another will have an 18 dexterity for marksmanship, a third will have an 18 intelligence and be "Mr Fix-it" etc. So its like a gold medal winning olympic athelete teaming up with a crack marksman, and Albert Einstein, along with a movie star, and a Noble who has all the money and does all the purchasing.

 

[mike wightman]

You've just listed the main reasons why I don't like point buy character generation systems, they are too open to munchkinism.

They can be mitigated by a competent referee though.

 

[tjoneslo]

Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
I have a few questions:

Does it take a long time to create a character with the point buy system?

My Experience with different point buy systems shows it takes about the same amount of time to create a character in GURPS or Hero (the two most crunchy point buy systems) as it does in D&D.

How do you describe a classless character in a nutshell?

How do you describe yourself in a nutshell?

Also with a point buy system, how do you prevent PCs and especially GMs from optimizing characters for a specific situation?

How do you prevent this in any game system? Please don't answer that. It's a retorical question. The point is every game system I've seen (and I've seen a lot) can be abused in one way or another.

The reason people like classless, point buy system is their flexability. I don't want to play a thief which is exactly like the 2,348,287 other thieves in the world. I demand my individuality. And by the point where you (as a GM) need to build a class for each character, you might as well give up on the whole idea.