combat armor

[flykiller]

is there any thread on the board or any document elsewhere that discusses how combat armor actually works? if it is unpowered then given the weapons it is meant to deflect or reduce, making it light enough for a soldier to wear and still be effective seems an issue.

 

[mike wightman]

I have never understood why they wouldn't put more armour on the powered suit...

as to what it is I would imagine both combat armour and battledress are composite. A couple of flexible non-Newtonian fluid filled layers for absorbing the impact energy (the particles in suspension being made of superdense or bonded superdense) contained within a high tech (possibly graphine based?) Kevlar like cloth, and a couple of hard layers. If the fluid layers could also ablate or transfer heat quickly you may have some laser protection.

 

[jec10]

As I've said before, I believe having the same armour values at the same TLs for combat armour and battle dress in CT/MT is a mistake. It makes no sense that unpowered armour would have the same protection as powered armour (either the battle dress is way under-armoured, somewhat defeating the point of powering it, or the combat armour is ridiculously over-armoured for the actual weight that could be carried by an unpowered human).

In TNE/T4 when you actually began designing armour suits from the ground up it soon becomes clear to you that unpowered armour is going to come out giving significantly less protection at the same TL than you can achieve with powered armour.

To me CT/MT combat armour is magic tech.

 

[mike wightman]

Here's a picture I found:

http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/gallery/mag/battledress/suiting.jpg

 

[RandyB]

As I've said before, I believe having the same armour values at the same TLs for combat armour and battle dress in CT/MT is a mistake. It makes no sense that unpowered armour would have the same protection as powered armour (either the battle dress is way under-armoured, somewhat defeating the point of powering it, or the combat armour is ridiculously over-armoured for the actual weight that could be carried by an unpowered human).

In TNE/T4 when you actually began designing armour suits from the ground up it soon becomes clear to you that unpowered armour is going to come out giving significantly less protection at the same TL than you can achieve with powered armour.

To me CT/MT combat armour is magic tech.

Or perhaps Combat Armor is "neutral-powered" while Battle Dress is "positive-powered". Meaning that Combat Armor is only powered enough to carry itself, while Battle Dress is powered in excess of what is necessary to carry itself, and the excess power is used for carrying heavier external payloads (weapons, etc.)

Clear as mud?

 

[Bob Weaver]

Frank Chadwick gave a talk about Striker at Celesticon back in 2011. In that talk someone asked him about Combat Armor. In paraphrase, he said that Combat Armor was powered armor that you don't have to carry - it's power is all in the exoskeleton, making it weightless to the wearer. Battle Dress has more power - enough to do the STR and END bonuses.

It's a fun lecture overall, and he talks about more than just the Striker rules - he also discusses A House Divided, the Civil War simulation. Here's the link: (1 hr 22 min) http://www.celesticon.com/Podcasts/Frank Chadwick 30 Years of Striker.mp3


Best regards,
Bob W

 

[mike wightman]

There is so much good stuff in that interview...
very interesting stuff indeed...

what would be different...

map box/battlefield computer at lower TLs - integration of GPS etc into Striker
the importance of comms, sensors and the like
indirect fire should be much more accurate and less time in flight at higher TLs
grav technology at higher TL
TNE would have been better set during the Long Night.

 

[mike wightman]

So battledress is like Starship Troopers powered armour while combat armour is probably more like the suits in Expanse. Combat armour is powered to the degree it offsets the armour mass, BD is augmented to allow carrying a whole lot of additional stuff.

Some stuff should be built into the CA and BD - comms, map box and battlecomputer, sensory augmentation, sensor feeds including GPS...

 

[Condottiere]

The parts that interested me most were:

1. Communications and surveillance

2. Hindsightedly address The Long Night instead of breaking up the Imperium

 

[Blue Ghost]

Then why did one of my players complain about having to "carry" battle dress as he wore it? Does it not cost weight against the character's strength?

 

[mike wightman]

The parts that interested me most were:

1. Communications and surveillance

2. Hindsightedly address The Long Night instead of breaking up the Imperium

If I could go back in time and influence the setting of CT I would have advised them to go with the Long Night as a setting from the word go.

A subsector sized empire would be ample to be the safe area, then you have a subsector in each direction that has been explored, then beyond that frontier subsectors.

There could be rumours of Earth being that way, or Vland being this way, and at the edges of the maps here there be jump krakens...

anyway that is by the by.

Back to battledress and combat armour - the powered armour aspect of combat armour could be provided by a layer of synthetic muscle, while battledress has much more heavy duty mechanical augmentation.

BD becomes capable of carrying around what would otherwise be crew served weapons - the high TL equivalent of the HMG, auto-grenade launchers, miniguns, TOW missiles, recoiless rifles etc. and of course some sort of point defence system.

 

[mike wightman]

Then why did one of my players complain about having to "carry" battle dress as he wore it? Does it not cost weight against the character's strength?

Nope.
Under 'weight' in LBB:1

Clothing, personal armor, and minor items such as holsters, scabbards, and belts are not counted.

Then it has this to say about BD:

Battle dress enhances the strength and senses of individuals wearing it with variable feedback personal controls, servopowered limbs, and various kinds of electronic assistance. The individual wearing battle dress is effectively doubled in strength and given unlimited endurance (for lifting, carrying, and fighting purposes; not for wounds received)

Striker adds:

A soldier in battle dress may carry up to 100 kg without being encumbered, and
may carry up to 200 kg while encumbered.

and a soldier in BD can run every turn.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Maybe I'm thinking of another system ... one of my players used to gripe about the weight of armor ... I can't remember which game though.

Oh well, thanks for the reference.

 

[infojunky]

Frank Chadwick gave a talk about Striker at Celesticon back in 2011. In that talk someone asked him about Combat Armor. In paraphrase, he said that Combat Armor was powered armor that you don't have to carry - it's power is all in the exoskeleton, making it weightless to the wearer. Battle Dress has more power - enough to do the STR and END bonuses.

Yep, remember asking that question...

It's a fun lecture overall, and he talks about more than just the Striker rules - he also discusses A House Divided, the Civil War simulation. Here's the link: (1 hr 22 min) http://www.celesticon.com/Podcasts/Frank Chadwick 30 Years of Striker.mp3

So weird listening to oneself.

 

[kilemall]

Frank Chadwick gave a talk about Striker at Celesticon back in 2011. In that talk someone asked him about Combat Armor. In paraphrase, he said that Combat Armor was powered armor that you don't have to carry - it's power is all in the exoskeleton, making it weightless to the wearer. Battle Dress has more power - enough to do the STR and END bonuses.

It's a fun lecture overall, and he talks about more than just the Striker rules - he also discusses A House Divided, the Civil War simulation. Here's the link: (1 hr 22 min) http://www.celesticon.com/Podcasts/Frank Chadwick 30 Years of Striker.mp3


Best regards,
Bob W

Wow, this one post pays off all the time I have spent on COTI. Really settles a lot of the question marks about CA vs. BD.

A House Divided is a staple in my group, it even has it's own trophy- Union Bear.

 

[sabredog]

IMATU battle dress, even at the same relative tech level, has more protection than combat armor. Not a huge amount, but more. Mainly I have theories of powered armor vs. unpowered in MTU that regulate its use and design:

1) Powered armor is bulkier so vehicle crews and headquarters staff probably don't use it. It is highly 'technical' and requires a lot of maintenance, along with the extra personnel and gear for that - again taking up space, money, and people.

2) Powered armor is a force multiplier for infantry and not a way to turn an infantryman into a small tank. It still has to allow the trooper to use cover, move into and out of human-accessible areas quickly and easily. And fit in an out of standard starship corridors. This means the level of armor carried has a finite limit in bulk.

3) Because of the powered suit's lift capabilities it can, however, use heavier armor plating than combat does, so it gets a better level of protection within the limits of human survivability. Given the limit of how thick the armor is limited to, there is nothing say it cannot be harder , denser armor. Still, it isn't the meter or so of bonded superdense required to prevent penetration by an FGMP or RP_Y gun.

4) Power is another limiter. The heavier the suit, the more power and gear required to make it go as long as required. That adds more weight and bulk, and around we go. IMTU suit do not run off tiny fusion generators, but use rechargeable packs supplemented the recharging units that harvest the kinetic motion of the wearer running around and moving his limbs. A suit is usually good for 72 hrs in average combat use before needed a top-off taking 8 hours. A suit can plug into any fusion or high-energy source for charging. One time enterprising players tapped into a small town's energy grid and blacked out a a couple of blocks to recharge.

5) The powered suit allows a trooper to carry more and heavier weapons, but still functions as infantry. You can use it to hump heavy artillery shells and recover vehicles, too, but that sort of thing has special gear to attach to the suit.

6) Combat armor is less tiring to wear. You can take off the helmet and wear the suit with the limbs partial removed for greater comfort. He suit can be removed and put on fairly quickly with the use of special storgae gear. Combat armor can often be repaired in a DIY way by the wearer until a depot can fix it to OEM standards. Combat is almost always garrison wear for powered troops.

7) Combat armor can be as complicated as as ST Stormtrooper suit or merely be (at its lowest TL of availability) a suit of Cloth reinforced with removable armor plates that can be slipped in and out of various pockets, and the whole suit then worn as an overgarment for a light vacc suit or NBC suit.


IMATU Rule #3 means BD at the same relative TL of combat armor gets a defensive bonus as well as provides better environmental protection for a trooper wearing it. But not so much he is invulnerable - just a bit safer and can be in the soup longer.

 

[Ulsyus]

6) Combat armor is less tiring to wear. You can take off the helmet and wear the suit with the limbs partial removed for greater comfort. He suit can be removed and put on fairly quickly with the use of special storgae gear. Combat armor can often be repaired in a DIY way by the wearer until a depot can fix it to OEM standards. Combat is almost always garrison wear for powered troops.

Is combat armour in YTU lighter than the TL8 stuff that's worn by troops from 1st-world nations now? It in itself is still heavy, especially after wearing it for several hours without a break.

Even more important, it's great at retaining heat. That's nice in cold weather (unless it's so cold you need CW clothing, in which case it's a pain to have to wear that stuff underneath) but hellacious in hot weather. There's no surer way to lose weight than to have to have that stuff on for days at a time in unpleasant arid locations in summer. In those circumstances I'd be giving players -DMs because of the distraction the sweat, and the fatigue it generates.

IMTU battle dress, being sealed and powered, is cooled, making it sooooo much better to wear in a lot of environments!

 

[mike wightman]

The TL 10 Combat Environment Suit provides cooling for the soldier:

Heat buildup in the suit is handled by a simple cooling system, solid state and woven into the garment, which eliminates all IR signature except from the exposed face, hands, and heat exhaust.

Combat Armour contains similar cooling systems:

Combat armor dampens heat signature in the same fashion as the combat environment suit.

 

[Ulsyus]

The TL 10 Combat Environment Suit provides cooling for the soldier:

Heat buildup in the suit is handled by a simple cooling system, solid state and woven into the garment, which eliminates all IR signature except from the exposed face, hands, and heat exhaust.

That heat exhaust could be considerable; people show up really neatly on TI even without the mechanism of having all their generated heat shunted out of a single port. Exhaust systems on vehicles a like beacons on that system. In that sense the narrative may be a little off.

 

[mike wightman]

The suit comes with a disposable coolant can that reduces the heat exhaust signature for a while:

The heat exhaust is a very pronounced IR source, but it can be dampened to nil by use of a chemical chill can, easily inserted into the cooling system by the soldier. Each chill can will eliminate exhaust signature for between 45 minutes and 2 hours, depending on outside temperatures and exertion. At the end of the time, the spent chill can is disposable. Total reduction of IR signature is achieved by the gauntlets and head bag mentioned above. Reduction of IR signature will prevent long range detection of personnel by IR equipment, and will defeat IR homing anti-personnel rounds, but will not prevent detection in the immediate vicinity of the enemy, as each soldier will appear as a very visible dark spot against the overall IR background of foliage, landscape, etc.
The combat environment suit is treated as Cloth -1. It is available at tech level 10, and costs CR 1000. At tech level 12 the chameleon suit becomes available for CR 1500, which selectively bleeds heat to match the background IR level, effectively rendering the soldier invisible to IR sensors.