CotI Spica Sector Project (CSSP)
- Thread starter RainOfSteel
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RainOfSteel
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I've been reading up on what I have. CT:Alien Module 7: Hivers.
As for what the Hivers would want . . . it would be to "manipulate" the Solomani into greater conformence with Hiver ideals and thought patterns. From what little is available, it seems to be what the Hiver's have done time and again.
Now, the Solomani, of course, would likely know something about Hiver history, especially the K'Kree War incident where Hivers altered the culture of the K'Kree on four worlds, up to and including the eating of meat. So they're going to have their own anti-manipulation programs, etc.
As for material goods, it turns out that the Hivers like a high standard of living, so carrying on profitable trade would seem to be a motivating factor behind association with the Solomani (and that every race the Hivers have run into have been manipulation targets due to the Hiver "yearling" parenting instinct; and the general Hiver belief that all the other races are really yearlings who just don't know better).
M
Malenfant
Guest
Here's how I see the manipulation thing:
Assuming that hiver "manipulation" is basically highly advanced and very effective Memetics (I'd rather it was that rather than some magical alien superpower), the Solomani are going to be pretty good at it too - hell, we're fairly good at it today.
The Hiver vs K'Kree incident is basically an extension of the arguments a human meat eater would use to convince a human vegetarian to eat meat. Except they're much more persuasive, to the point of convincing a herbivorous species to eat meat. I don't know how the heck they did it, but I suspect it was a fairly long-term, focussed effort (do I recall correctly that it involved Hivers brainwashing K'Kree prisoners and dropping them back on K'Kree worlds to spread the word?).
Solomani of course would be wise to such things, since they'll undoubtedly have practised similar techniques in the past. Today, everything from advertising to selling slimming and cosmetics to swaying people to vote for or against a political candidate (or for or against blowing themselves up, for that matter) is down to some kind of memetic manipulation. If we're doing that today, then the Solomani must sure as hell doing it in the TU (especially given their "The Party Is Great" mentality).
Hence why it's going to be an interesting environment. Assuming that both sides are interested in swaying the people between then, the people there are going to be bombarded from all sides by very effective, focussed advertising and propaganda. It'd be like the Cold War, but more intense (yet still not involving actual firing of weaponry). Which makes me wonder - is that a stable situation? How long could this go on for?
Of course, that assumes that either side wants to make the effort (if one does, the other will follow). It may be that some worlds or polities between the two may even actively shut out both sides, effectively sticking their fingers in their ears and saying "lalala, I can't hear you!" to stay out of the fight
Assuming that hiver "manipulation" is basically highly advanced and very effective Memetics (I'd rather it was that rather than some magical alien superpower), the Solomani are going to be pretty good at it too - hell, we're fairly good at it today.
The Hiver vs K'Kree incident is basically an extension of the arguments a human meat eater would use to convince a human vegetarian to eat meat. Except they're much more persuasive, to the point of convincing a herbivorous species to eat meat. I don't know how the heck they did it, but I suspect it was a fairly long-term, focussed effort (do I recall correctly that it involved Hivers brainwashing K'Kree prisoners and dropping them back on K'Kree worlds to spread the word?).
Solomani of course would be wise to such things, since they'll undoubtedly have practised similar techniques in the past. Today, everything from advertising to selling slimming and cosmetics to swaying people to vote for or against a political candidate (or for or against blowing themselves up, for that matter) is down to some kind of memetic manipulation. If we're doing that today, then the Solomani must sure as hell doing it in the TU (especially given their "The Party Is Great" mentality).
Hence why it's going to be an interesting environment. Assuming that both sides are interested in swaying the people between then, the people there are going to be bombarded from all sides by very effective, focussed advertising and propaganda. It'd be like the Cold War, but more intense (yet still not involving actual firing of weaponry). Which makes me wonder - is that a stable situation? How long could this go on for?
Of course, that assumes that either side wants to make the effort (if one does, the other will follow). It may be that some worlds or polities between the two may even actively shut out both sides, effectively sticking their fingers in their ears and saying "lalala, I can't hear you!" to stay out of the fight
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
I don't know so much about them being better at Everything, but...
Consider: In the Imperium, Warbots are limited by the Shushadam Accords, but theoretically still doable... while Hiver Robots are Illegal to import into the Imperium... to cite only one example...
I bet they would be terrible shoemakers...
It is easy to assign human Characterisitics to them, but i dont think that all Hiver dealings are necessarily underhanded, but they do enjoy Manipulation... thier culture seems built/based on it.
Also Consider: Many in the US think Levi's Jeans are made in the US, and they are marketed as such, but they are actually made in the Far East... it may be a flimsy analogy, but sort of what I'm on about in regards to non-hivers not knowing where it all comes from... the Communication Lag and sheer distance can hide much, even unintentionally...
Consider: In the Imperium, Warbots are limited by the Shushadam Accords, but theoretically still doable... while Hiver Robots are Illegal to import into the Imperium... to cite only one example...
I bet they would be terrible shoemakers...
It is easy to assign human Characterisitics to them, but i dont think that all Hiver dealings are necessarily underhanded, but they do enjoy Manipulation... thier culture seems built/based on it.
Also Consider: Many in the US think Levi's Jeans are made in the US, and they are marketed as such, but they are actually made in the Far East... it may be a flimsy analogy, but sort of what I'm on about in regards to non-hivers not knowing where it all comes from... the Communication Lag and sheer distance can hide much, even unintentionally...
M
Malenfant
Guest
Another alternative is that precisely because Hivers are so good at manipulation, the Solomani just plain don't trust them (again, visions of the Cold War spring to mind).
So there'd be no open trade or even contact between the two nations (was the US and USSR like that before Cuba?), but perhaps wars would be fought in satellite polities where one was trying to get a foothold (kinda like Vietnam?).
Hmm. The historical analogy there could be quite interesting... The Sollies are basically the US, and the Hivers are basically the USSR (in terms of two wildly different ideologies, or at least two nations who see eachothers' ideologies and approaches as threats). They glare at eachother menacingly over their borders, and meanwhile support satellite nations that lie between them (who are then used to attack the other side indirectly).
That's probably very far outside what the OTU is supposed to say about it, but it sounds intriguing I think. There's certainly lots of room for adventure there...
So there'd be no open trade or even contact between the two nations (was the US and USSR like that before Cuba?), but perhaps wars would be fought in satellite polities where one was trying to get a foothold (kinda like Vietnam?).
Hmm. The historical analogy there could be quite interesting... The Sollies are basically the US, and the Hivers are basically the USSR (in terms of two wildly different ideologies, or at least two nations who see eachothers' ideologies and approaches as threats). They glare at eachother menacingly over their borders, and meanwhile support satellite nations that lie between them (who are then used to attack the other side indirectly).
That's probably very far outside what the OTU is supposed to say about it, but it sounds intriguing I think. There's certainly lots of room for adventure there...
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
I am sure that Sols would be masters at marketing to Humans, way more so than Hiver, even with Human Agents, BUT... I doubt that considering Sol Attitudes and Track Record that very many non-humans would be psyched about dealing with them...
Money is one thing, but knowing that the man you buy your stuff from's Government would rather you be stuffed and in a Museum than be roaming around unwatched...
The "Meat is Good" Incident with the K'Kree and Hivers seems to have set the tone for thier relations... If the hivers could freak them out on that level, this will be a Sector of Intrest indeed!
Money is one thing, but knowing that the man you buy your stuff from's Government would rather you be stuffed and in a Museum than be roaming around unwatched...
The "Meat is Good" Incident with the K'Kree and Hivers seems to have set the tone for thier relations... If the hivers could freak them out on that level, this will be a Sector of Intrest indeed!
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
Cold War analogy is good, but we can also expound Interspecies Cold War, with ideologies full on affected by physicality... I have been re reading the Hiver books, and they are VERY different from humans!
M
Malenfant
Guest
This is an interesting discussion... maybe we should split the Sollie/Hiver relations topic into a different thread?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
How much relevance is to be placed on the data in Atlas of the Imperium?
It gives allegiance codes, bases, general system data like starport type, water present, gas giant, if the world is an asteroid belt, names of the high population worlds.
The border between the Solomani and Hivers is mixed.
The 0900 column contains so and na worlds;
The 1000 column contains so, na, and hi worlds;
The 1100 column contains so, na, and hi worlds;
The 1200 column contains so, na, and hi worlds;
The 1300 column contains so, na, and hi worlds;
The 1400 column contains so, na, and hi worlds;
The 1500 column contains na, and hi worlds.
The data in AotI is dated as 1065, the year the second survey was published.
It gives allegiance codes, bases, general system data like starport type, water present, gas giant, if the world is an asteroid belt, names of the high population worlds.
The border between the Solomani and Hivers is mixed.
The 0900 column contains so and na worlds;
The 1000 column contains so, na, and hi worlds;
The 1100 column contains so, na, and hi worlds;
The 1200 column contains so, na, and hi worlds;
The 1300 column contains so, na, and hi worlds;
The 1400 column contains so, na, and hi worlds;
The 1500 column contains na, and hi worlds.
The data in AotI is dated as 1065, the year the second survey was published.
Shadowdancer
SOC-14 1K
Lords,
I have been away from these boards for awhile (attending GenCon, then catching up at work because I was at GenCon), so I have just this weekend discovered and read the threads related to the CSSP. I hope it is not too late to join this project, as I have an interest in designing some systems for use by others.
Just to summarize my opinions on the previous discussions:
-- I agree with keeping subsector names and hex locations.
-- I agree with changing UWPs, stellar data, and most system names.
-- I agree with the borders -- roughly one-third Solomani, one-third Hiver and one-third independent, with a buffer zone between the Solomani and Hivers.
-- I agree with using the 993 baseline setting of T20.
Good work and ideas so far.
I have been away from these boards for awhile (attending GenCon, then catching up at work because I was at GenCon), so I have just this weekend discovered and read the threads related to the CSSP. I hope it is not too late to join this project, as I have an interest in designing some systems for use by others.
Just to summarize my opinions on the previous discussions:
-- I agree with keeping subsector names and hex locations.
-- I agree with changing UWPs, stellar data, and most system names.
-- I agree with the borders -- roughly one-third Solomani, one-third Hiver and one-third independent, with a buffer zone between the Solomani and Hivers.
-- I agree with using the 993 baseline setting of T20.
Good work and ideas so far.
Shadowdancer
SOC-14 1K
As to the Hiver manipulation as regarding the K'kree Meat-Eating Incident, and the Solomani's knowledge of it:
It has always been my (possibly mistaken) impression that this is not General Knowledge. It is in the various Traveller Alien books as deep background Ref information, just so you know what happened, but is not widespread knowledge in the Known Universe, not even within the Hive Federation and the Two Thousand Worlds.
The K'kree wouldn't want the information to become common knowledge because of the shame associated with it, and the possiblity the practice could spread. That's why the leadership of the Two Thousand Worlds had the tainted worlds and their entire populations destroyed.
The Hivers wouldn't want the information to become common knowledge because the tactics used would lose some of their psychological effect. If other polities know you did something to hastily end a war with the K'kree, but don't know what it was you did, they fear you much more because they don't know what to prepare for, or how to counter-act it.
And the Hivers don't need for all K'kree to know what happened -- just the leadership of the Two Thousand Worlds. It is enough that they know, and the leaders of the Hivers know. Then it just hangs in the background of all political dealings, like an implied but never-stated threat.
So I don't think the Solomani know what the Hivers did to the K'kree. They probably know something happened, but not what happened. That information would make a great McGuffin for an espionage-based adventure or campaign. A Solomani agent has the information on an encrypted data storage unit -- possibly disguised as a cookbook. She needs to get it across the buffer zone to Solomani space. Hiver agents want to stop her. The PCs become involved working for one side or the other.
It has always been my (possibly mistaken) impression that this is not General Knowledge. It is in the various Traveller Alien books as deep background Ref information, just so you know what happened, but is not widespread knowledge in the Known Universe, not even within the Hive Federation and the Two Thousand Worlds.
The K'kree wouldn't want the information to become common knowledge because of the shame associated with it, and the possiblity the practice could spread. That's why the leadership of the Two Thousand Worlds had the tainted worlds and their entire populations destroyed.
The Hivers wouldn't want the information to become common knowledge because the tactics used would lose some of their psychological effect. If other polities know you did something to hastily end a war with the K'kree, but don't know what it was you did, they fear you much more because they don't know what to prepare for, or how to counter-act it.
And the Hivers don't need for all K'kree to know what happened -- just the leadership of the Two Thousand Worlds. It is enough that they know, and the leaders of the Hivers know. Then it just hangs in the background of all political dealings, like an implied but never-stated threat.
So I don't think the Solomani know what the Hivers did to the K'kree. They probably know something happened, but not what happened. That information would make a great McGuffin for an espionage-based adventure or campaign. A Solomani agent has the information on an encrypted data storage unit -- possibly disguised as a cookbook. She needs to get it across the buffer zone to Solomani space. Hiver agents want to stop her. The PCs become involved working for one side or the other.
Good morning, Gentle Sophonts,
Man, you don't check the boards for a weekend, and look what happens!
I'm all for the process as outlined. I would also request that the regenerated UWPs not violate the limited data that is currently available in the Atlas of the Imperium, just because I'm wired that way.
I am willing to help with the UWP regeneration and stellar data stuff, as my app seems to be doing well in those regards.
I am working this week on analyzing the changes in the Gateway sector and coming up with a method for converting CT Era stats to Gateway Era stats, in the event that it might prove useful (not only for this project but also for another one.)
Please let me know if I might be able to contribute in these ways.
More later,
Flynn
Man, you don't check the boards for a weekend, and look what happens!
I'm all for the process as outlined. I would also request that the regenerated UWPs not violate the limited data that is currently available in the Atlas of the Imperium, just because I'm wired that way.
I am willing to help with the UWP regeneration and stellar data stuff, as my app seems to be doing well in those regards.
I am working this week on analyzing the changes in the Gateway sector and coming up with a method for converting CT Era stats to Gateway Era stats, in the event that it might prove useful (not only for this project but also for another one.)
Please let me know if I might be able to contribute in these ways.
More later,
Flynn
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
Well, ok. I can buy that. But I never quite got the same feel for it you have. I thought it was common knowledge.
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
That's interesting, because I see references of Solomani settling in the Hinterworlds and Crucis Margin, and references to Solomani arriving in Kaa G!Kul from Crucis Margin on various Hivers worlds to find an acceptable welcome.
But no mention of Leonidae at all, even though it's right there tucked betwix Hinterworlds, Crucis Margin, and Kaa G!Kul. Maybe there's something going on there the rest of the races don't want to look a too closely? [evil Illuminati-villain laugh!]
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
http://www.zho.berka.com/data/CLASSIC/LEONIDAE/MAP/
Here's the first convenient one I found, but it's divided up, Gal 2.4 style.
Also, some text details: Leonidae Details
Here's the first convenient one I found, but it's divided up, Gal 2.4 style.
Also, some text details: Leonidae Details
Count in me for the Leonidae, then. However, I will add a few more Pocket Empires of unsatisfied Solomani in there. I can think of a few disgruntled Transhumanists who would find the Hivers to their liking. Similarly, I think that there is room for a more neo-medievel kingdom that exists independently of the 3I...Empire of the Phoenix, perhaps...
M
Malenfant
Guest
Folks, do remember that this is the SPICA sector project, not the Leonidae sector project. Let's not get sidetracked here
Casey, assuming you mean they're in Spica and not Leonidae - can you please dig up some titbits of info (ie names of races, where the homeworlds are, do they have empires etc) about the GT Humaniti races and post it in the Major and Minor races thread here? Ta.
Casey, assuming you mean they're in Spica and not Leonidae - can you please dig up some titbits of info (ie names of races, where the homeworlds are, do they have empires etc) about the GT Humaniti races and post it in the Major and Minor races thread here? Ta.
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