CotI Spica Sector Project (CSSP)
- Thread starter RainOfSteel
- Start date
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
I like this... I tend to imagine Hivers as masters of memetics, I can imagine that this sector could be an ideological battleground between worlds sympathetic to the Solomani and those sympathetic to the Hivers. </font>[/QUOTE]With the PCs caught in the middle!
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
I have no problem with placing the project's "setting" in the 990s, but I do have a problem with the existing UWP data's Allegiance Codes showing Solomani and Hiver space inside Spica.
If we go with that, then 50% of the space in Spica is occupied by two great stellar nations. That rather reduces the number of extra independent polities that we can fit into the area, and since we're all going to want a crack at one corner or another after the top-level detailing begins to gel, then I think keeping Solomani and Hiver space out of Spica is beneficial to "us", the people who are working on the project.
The current tenor of opinion is to junk existing UWP data (and possibly keeping existing hex locations), which I favor as well. However, I say we use the borders from the CT:Black-Map from era 1110 (replicated for that region on page 46 of GTD), at least as a general guide. The most general guidance I suggest we take from it is that Solomani and Hiver space are not found inside the Sector. Although, as I mentioned before, the influence of those two nations may be found in any degree necessary. Personally, given their far greater proximity (just over the sector's edges), the Hiver's should have the edge. Especially with their long-range psychohistorical plotting . . .
If we go with that, then 50% of the space in Spica is occupied by two great stellar nations. That rather reduces the number of extra independent polities that we can fit into the area, and since we're all going to want a crack at one corner or another after the top-level detailing begins to gel, then I think keeping Solomani and Hiver space out of Spica is beneficial to "us", the people who are working on the project.
The current tenor of opinion is to junk existing UWP data (and possibly keeping existing hex locations), which I favor as well. However, I say we use the borders from the CT:Black-Map from era 1110 (replicated for that region on page 46 of GTD), at least as a general guide. The most general guidance I suggest we take from it is that Solomani and Hiver space are not found inside the Sector. Although, as I mentioned before, the influence of those two nations may be found in any degree necessary. Personally, given their far greater proximity (just over the sector's edges), the Hiver's should have the edge. Especially with their long-range psychohistorical plotting . . .
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
Ok, since we're planning on doing top-down detailing, then I think we need to look at dividing up the timeline into segments that are useful. The attack on Spica's historic detail can be better managed in segments.
I'll put forward these segments for something to start looking at (the names and breaks are from Don McKinney's timeline, which, IMO, neatly divide up the history of the OTU, although it is a bit Imperial-centric):
</font>
I'll put forward these segments for something to start looking at (the names and breaks are from Don McKinney's timeline, which, IMO, neatly divide up the history of the OTU, although it is a bit Imperial-centric):
</font>
- Early to -9236: Reign of the Ancients</font>
- -9235 to -2910: Rise of the Vilani</font>
- -2900 to -2205: Fall of the Vilani</font>
- -2204 to -0651: The Long Night</font>
- -0650 to -0001: The Rise of Sylea</font>
- 0000 to 0119: Dawn of the Third Imperium</font>
- 0120 to 0474: The Antebellum Years</font>
- 0475 to 0621: Imperial Disarray</font>
- 0622 to 0767: Imperial Recovery</font>
- 0768 to 0939: The Stumbling Years</font>
- 0940 to 1002: Solomani Rim War</font>
- After Here Would be for Reference</font>
- 1003 to 1084: Classic Prelude</font>
- 1085 to 1106: The Classic Campaign</font>
- 1107 to 1110: The Fifth Frontier War</font>
- 1111 to 1119: Transition</font>
If that's what you want, fair enough, but wouldn't you be better off doing Hinterworlds or Leonidae (just above Spica)? They have not very little "major race" presence in them, less than a subsector each. And they border Glimmerdrift/Crucis, which would be of obvious interest in 993.
The reason I suggested Spica in the first place wast that it has an interesting 3 way border, with the 3I looking on, and lots of tensions and dynamics to provide reasons for adventure. But if what you want is a sector with as little as possible "big stuff" in it, there are better places to use.
Gruffty
SOC-14 1K
Revised suggested project plan no. 1:
1) Subsector names to be as previously published
2) Use 1110 era borders
3) Keep systems located in their hexes
4) New UWPs for each system
5) New stellar data for each system
6) Examine each UWP & stellar data for each system to ensure no weird results occur
5) Keep the more intersting/unusual/significant names for systems from previous versions of the sector
6) New names for all other systems
What do people think?
1) Subsector names to be as previously published
2) Use 1110 era borders
3) Keep systems located in their hexes
4) New UWPs for each system
5) New stellar data for each system
6) Examine each UWP & stellar data for each system to ensure no weird results occur
5) Keep the more intersting/unusual/significant names for systems from previous versions of the sector
6) New names for all other systems
What do people think?
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
If that's what you want, fair enough, but wouldn't you be better off doing Hinterworlds or Leonidae (just above Spica)? They have not very little "major race" presence in them, less than a subsector each. And they border Glimmerdrift/Crucis, which would be of obvious interest in 993.
The reason I suggested Spica in the first place wast that it has an interesting 3 way border, with the 3I looking on, and lots of tensions and dynamics to provide reasons for adventure. But if what you want is a sector with as little as possible "big stuff" in it, there are better places to use. </font>[/QUOTE]What i can't figure out is where the whole idea of a three way border came from. The map shows no border. Solomani space (aka "The Solomani Sphere"; a fifty parsec radius around Terra) is 25+ parsecs away. It's as if the creators of the original UWP data decided that Solomani and Hiver space extended to new places on their own.
While I can see why someone would think that any nation's space would expand or contract over time, the CT circa 1110 map shows the sector without their presence. Were the UWPs really designed for other eras? What cite supports a huge projection of Solomani space off into Spica, and then lost it; or that the Hivers had a big reversal and lost territory by 1110? And, if the whole idea was original, how do we explain it? Was the Solomain failure in the Rim War responsible for the loss of all that territory by 1110? Sounds plausible. But what about the Hiver loss? I don't have any of the Hiver historical information. Can anyone think why Hiver space would expand into Spica by 990 and then be gone by 1110?
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
I'm happy with the 990 era.
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
The 1110 map shows a large polity blob in the delta quadrant of Spica.
I think we can easily posit it as an Solomani populated nation. Pre-Rim War, in which the Solomani lost, we can also posit that it was larger in 990, and that after the Solomani lose, it shrinks.
Maybe in 990, there is a big Hiver client state in the gamma quadrant. For centuries, various Hivers within it had embarked on some grand psychohistorical plot. When the Solomani-based nation nearby suffers and loses worlds after the end of the Rim War, the psychohistorical plot backfires on the Hivers and the political cohesion of their territory disolves over the next century (showing that even the Hivers are playing with fire when using psychohistory).
I think we can easily posit it as an Solomani populated nation. Pre-Rim War, in which the Solomani lost, we can also posit that it was larger in 990, and that after the Solomani lose, it shrinks.
Maybe in 990, there is a big Hiver client state in the gamma quadrant. For centuries, various Hivers within it had embarked on some grand psychohistorical plot. When the Solomani-based nation nearby suffers and loses worlds after the end of the Rim War, the psychohistorical plot backfires on the Hivers and the political cohesion of their territory disolves over the next century (showing that even the Hivers are playing with fire when using psychohistory).
Entirely reasonable question. Why does a bunch of CT era data utterly contradict the two recent canon sources (GtD and GURPS)? Let's follow Occam, and look for the simplest explanation for the known facts. Well, some of the options seem to be:
- "It's forbidden canon, or decanonised."
- "The CT data is rubbish, nobody ever thought about a Spica sector in the CT days, it was never seriously meant for use."
In either case, one would not expect it to be compatible. And one would be unwise to try and reconcile the two.
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
So the Hinterworlds, as outlined in Challenge 39, is non-canon, then? I hope not, because, DGP or no, it's some pretty fine work...
Backgound Consideration 1: Regardless of Borders, I think some explination as to exactly why two huge expansionist governments* have left a sizeable area of the sector unaligned... and by postulating this, I am not suggesting anything Goofy, Like Organians, Cosmic Barriers and the like, but there must be a logical reason for the occurance.
It would seem an easy thing for either to take over a freestanding System, with Sols using Force (perhaps my Vilani bias against the Sols is showing...) And the Hivers, Manipulation...
*Solomani= Manifest Destiny
Hivers = Lead the "Children" to "Enlightenment"
Let's Vote on the Era, and be done with it...
Backgound Consideration 1: Regardless of Borders, I think some explination as to exactly why two huge expansionist governments* have left a sizeable area of the sector unaligned... and by postulating this, I am not suggesting anything Goofy, Like Organians, Cosmic Barriers and the like, but there must be a logical reason for the occurance.
It would seem an easy thing for either to take over a freestanding System, with Sols using Force (perhaps my Vilani bias against the Sols is showing...) And the Hivers, Manipulation...
*Solomani= Manifest Destiny
Hivers = Lead the "Children" to "Enlightenment"
Let's Vote on the Era, and be done with it...
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
I disagree strongly with the notion of excluding the Hiver and Sol Presence from the Sector... there are plenty of Fringe Sectors (Hanstone, Banners, et al.) for that kind of stuff...
I don't think we should alter the Big Map too much... it outwardly seems like reinventing the wheel...
My "Scratch Vote"
Keep System Positions.
Keep Sols and Hivers.
Junk UWPS.
Era 1100-1115.
What I would like to see Kept Concept-Wise...
1. The Planet where Hivers and Humans first met.
2. The "Map Room" Ancient Site...
I don't think we should alter the Big Map too much... it outwardly seems like reinventing the wheel...
My "Scratch Vote"
Keep System Positions.
Keep Sols and Hivers.
Junk UWPS.
Era 1100-1115.
What I would like to see Kept Concept-Wise...
1. The Planet where Hivers and Humans first met.
2. The "Map Room" Ancient Site...
BrennanHawkwood
SOC-12
Out of curiousity I went looking through some of my books for maps of Spica sector. I could not find any CT maps (though I don't have many CT books). The MT maps that cover the 3I all have (based on a quick eyeball guestimate) at least half the sector within the border of either the Solomani or the Hiver nations. The 'hand drawn' maps showed less, electronically generated ones seemed to match what others have pulled from the internet.
The other map I could find easily waqs the one in the front of the GURPS Traveller book and the borders on it seem to match the model where about 1/4 of the sector is not part of either the Hiver of the Solomani.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Out of curiousity I went looking through some of my books for maps of Spica sector. I could not find any CT maps (though I don't have many CT books). The MT maps that cover the 3I all have (based on a quick eyeball guestimate) at least half the sector within the border of either the Solomani or the Hiver nations. The 'hand drawn' maps showed less, electronically generated ones seemed to match what others have pulled from the internet.
The other map I could find easily waqs the one in the front of the GURPS Traveller book and the borders on it seem to match the model where about 1/4 of the sector is not part of either the Hiver of the Solomani. </font>[/QUOTE]There is the map of charted space circa 1111 in the front of the DGP CT Alien Module 6 (Solomani) copyright 1986.
It shows half of subsectors A, F, J, and N (a third really) and all of subsectors E, I, and M as Solomani. While the Hivers have most of subsector K, a third of N, and all of L, O, and P. The only shared Solomani/Hiver border in the sector is a little bit of the bottom of subsector N.
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
The one pictured in CT's Library Data N-Z (it has the Star Spica noted) seems to have some form of thin "space" between the borders of the two governments...
M
Malenfant
Guest
A logical reason? That's asking a bit much when it comes to trying to make sense of conflicting Traveller data, isn't it?
M
Malenfant
Guest
Yah. The map on p46 of GtD - for Spica at least - is the same as the map in the GT book on page 7, There's a buffer zone between the Solomani and Hiver borders, and the coreward half of the sector doesn't appear to have any major Client States in it (not to say that there aren't any minor ones that don't show on the map...).
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
I'll be happy to go with what the rest of the group wants.
Of course, it doesn't help that for some reason I was looking at where Leonidae really is on the Map and was thinking it was Spica.
So, disregard my previous border comments.
And, of course, my apologies.
Of course, it doesn't help that for some reason I was looking at where Leonidae really is on the Map and was thinking it was Spica.
So, disregard my previous border comments.
And, of course, my apologies.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Just so long as some sense* is applied to any border decision. So that you don't have, for example, a high pop high tech garden world within a few parsecs of the border that neither side seems to want to claim, or a system with no strategic or other value that is hotly contested. Of course that may not be a problem, not having checked the system data, but I'd suspect it's likely given the nature of random generation.
* or valid reasons are presented
* or valid reasons are presented
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