CT vs. MGT Character Gen

[Supplement Four]

As are I expect uncounted other CT derived homerules developed before you ever posted word one of yours.*



You KNOW you sent it. Unless Mongoose wrote back and said "We read it." you DON'T know they read it. SOP is not to read unsolicited submissions to avoid such issues.

I'm just saying, if you have proof go for it but if you don't give it up and move on.

* unless you have something truly unique in yours that Mongoose copied verbatim

One can't copyright a dice mechanic, so there is no reason why Mongoose would say, "Yeah, we saw the UGM, liked it, tweaked it, and decided to use it."

I just think it's humorous how some, who railed on the UGM when I created it, think its the best thing since sliced cheese now that it's "official" in MGT.

If you look at MGT and UGM, there is very little difference between them. Where I used a more scaled way of dealing with stats, they defaulted to the method used in the UTP. The only thing they added that was unique was the timing die, and I think that's been proven to be a mistake.

Move on? It just seems that some refuse to admit how similar UGM and the MGT task system are.

It would kill Allensh to admit that....or even to take a step farther and see how the UGM outshines what is being used in MGT. (Their tweaks were not for the better, imo.)

This is a fair point.

I know I posted my CT skill resolution system on these boards months if not years before you joined S4

Does it look like the UGM--as close as MGT is to the UGM?

Oh...you guys are right. Just forget it.:rofl:

What I really like about your UGM was/is how to derive bonuses from characteristics - but I've adapted even that.

I'd like to see your tweak.

And I still think your UGM is actually one of the best skill resolution systems I've seen for Traveller.

Thanks, man!

 

[Supplement Four]

Back to an early point...

We all see now that having a skill in CT is not necessary for a ton of throws in the game? One doesn't have to have the Air/Raft skill in order to pilot an air/raft--right?

This type of thing is what I meant when I said that some people don't know CT as well as they think they do.

I mean...how many people realize that, as soon a you generate a character, you have the opportunity to add two more weapon skills to your character (via the Experience Rule), and have those levels remain permanently?

It's there in the rules. I don't think many people know its there, though.

And, the who Level-0 thing. The Administration skill reads that a -3 DM is placed on throws where the character doesn't have the skill. Admin-0 allows the character to avoid that penalty.

With many skills and tasks, it's up to the GM to decide. The rules written in the skill descritpions are only examples for particular situations. Use them as a guideline.

In this post-MT universe, Traveller players are stuck on Skill-1 means +1 to the task throw, and not having the skill always means a penalty or a prevention of the character attempting the task in the first place.

This just plain isn't true with the CT rules.

In most situations, a character can attempt a task without having the appropriate skill (as I've shown). Otherwise, how is it that CT characters with one and two skills out of chargen would be playable?

Skill-1 does not always mean a +1 DM on a throw. To revive low berthers, Medical-2 gains the reviver a +1 DM on the throw, and no other expertise affects the outcome!

With the Vacc Suit, the character nets +4 per skill level with some types of throws. With the Engineering skill, it's +2 per skill level with some types of throws.

Sometimes, the player will be asked to add his skill to his stat and then throw 2D, trying to roll lower than the total.

The point here is: Just like the non-structured task system, CT allows for skill levels to be weighted accordingly depending on the situation.

I think many people, post-MT, have a conception of what Classic Traveller is....when really CT isn't like what they think it is.

 

[aramis]

Back to an early point...

We all see now that having a skill in CT is not necessary for a ton of throws in the game? One doesn't have to have the Air/Raft skill in order to pilot an air/raft--right?

Wrong. It requires the skill, but all Bk1 PC's may get that skill at level 0, if their GM feels it is needed and no one has air/raft 1+.

A subtle but important distinction.
As to the all weapons, ISTR that not all editions gave "all listed weapons" at 0, some printings said Gun Combat 0 and Brawling 0. I can't find my Bk 1's... I argued that with a Ref I played under, and he showed me his bk 1 which said gun combat 0, not all weapons on the list.

We must remember that TTB is essentially CT v2.1..

 

[Supplement Four]

Wrong. It requires the skill, but all Bk1 PC's may get that skill at level 0, if their GM feels it is needed and no one has air/raft 1+.

You say "wrong", and your logic is this: Air/Raft is a default skill, thus, the GM can give one of the PC's Air/Raft-0.

I see why you think that, and it's understandable why you came to that conclusion.

But, let me show you why you're "wrong" for calling me "wrong". (I'm "right", by the way, and this is a good example of someone not knowing CT as well as he thinks he does...)


1. By your logic, no character could attempt an throw using the Administration skill unless he had that skill.

2. Looking at the "appropriate default skills" in that section of the book, I see that Admin is not listed. So, Admin is not a skill suggested as a give-away skill.

3. Yet, when I look at the description of the Administration skill, there is a DM listed (-3 DM) for throws when a character does not have the skill.

Clearly, a character, without Admin, can throw Admin based tasks without having the skill. It's there in black and white.

There are examples like this throughout the book. On the same page, Bribery lists a modifier is the skill is not held by the character, as an example.

Plus, most tasks are stated without including the need to have a skill.

The air/raft skill does not say that skill is required, but if the character has skill, he can get a bonus to the throw.

On the low berth revival throw: A character gets a +1 DM if the character has Medical-2 or better, but there is no penalty if the character does not have Medical skill.

On the other hand, there are some instances where skill is required. Under the Vacc Suit skill description, it plainly states that Vacc Suit-1 is needed to use combat armor or battledress.

Under the starship combat rules, it plainly states that Gunnery-1 or better is needed to operate ship's weapons.



So, you see, you were wrong in your assumption that air/raft-1 or better is needed to pilot an air/raft. Any character, without skill, can avoid an accident or mishap in bad weather, chases, or high speed maneuvers simply by passing a die roll test of 5+.

Success on 5+, without air/raft skill, allows you to avoid an accident while in a high speed air/raft chase.

Dem's the rules. It's right there in black & white.



(See...you didn't realize that about CT, did ya?)





EDIT: BTW, If having a particular skill were a requirement on every task throw, then many CT characters would be unplayable (unrealistically unplayable). Take the character who comes out of chargen with one or two skills. By your rule, those two things are the only things the character knows! That would make a lot of the characters listed in 1001 Characters unplayable, right? And, it does list in that book that any character from that book can be played as a player character!

Skills, in CT, are where a character excels. Skills highlight the character's forte. They show what he's good at doing.

Skills, in CT, are not the total sum of all the character's expertise. Too many people think that way (I think it comes from the standardization brought about in MT). CT isn't like that.

A character with just the Pilot-1 skill can do many, many things in the game--not just pilot a starship. He can fly an air/raft, shoot a weapon, brawl, melee, sniff out forged papers.

In fact, he can attempt to do most things--being only barred from doing a few things (like operating the turret weapons of a starship).

Skill is not needed for most tasks in Classic Traveller.

Remember: Skills highlight the character's strengths. A character's skills is not a laundry list of everything the character knows!

This is why Joe Starman, with only the Pilot-1 skill, can pilot an air/raft as well.

 

[far-trader]

...But, let me show you why you're "wrong" for calling me "wrong". (I'm "right", by the way, and this is a good example of someone not knowing CT as well as he thinks he does...)

And let me second aramis' wrong and show that you're not right and your'e the one who doesn't know CT as well as you think you do.

Read the Administration skill again, better yet let me read it to you so all can see...

"A basic throw of 7+ will successfully resolve normal interaction... "

Yes you can attempt to resolve normal interaction without the skill in this case, and examples of normal interaction are given.

What other skill attempts (non-default) can be made without skill?

Bribery, at DM -5

Gambling, at DM -0 on 9+ (might as well be a default skill then)

Streetwise, at a DM -5

So there you have it, 4 skills total of 17 (not counting default skills, Jack-O-Trades, or Xeno-Med)

Skill is not needed for most tasks in Classic Traveller.

Skill is in fact needed for most tasks in CT, 13 out of 17 tasks require skill 1 or better. Even adding in the non-redundant (treating weapons as Brawling, Gun, and Blade) default skills 15 of 25 (if I added right) skills require some skill (at least level 0). That is still most tasks requiring some skill.

1. By your logic, no character could attempt an throw using the Administration skill unless he had that skill.

2. Looking at the "appropriate default skills" in that section of the book, I see that Admin is not listed. So, Admin is not a skill suggested as a give-away skill.

A strawman, the skill tasks specifically note the exception for those skills and not needing skill, and you'll note they are not allowed level 0 either.

Plus, most tasks are stated without including the need to have a skill.

And the default is you can't attempt them without skill or expertise. That is the province of Jack-O-T. Check the Jack-O-T description.

The air/raft skill does not say that skill is required, but if the character has skill, he can get a bonus to the throw.

It is a default skill.

On the low berth revival throw: A character gets a +1 DM if the character has Medical-2 or better, but there is no penalty if the character does not have Medical skill.

There is no penalty because anyone without Medical attempting it will kill the person in the low berth.

On the other hand, there are some instances where skill is required. Under the Vacc Suit skill description, it plainly states that Vacc Suit-1 is needed to use combat armor or battledress.

Yes, another specified exception to the default skill being sufficient for some things and not others.

Under the starship combat rules, it plainly states that Gunnery-1 or better is needed to operate ship's weapons.

Yes, also in the skill description.

EDIT: BTW, If having a particular skill were a requirement on every task throw, then many CT characters would be unplayable (unrealistically unplayable).

B.S. You've shown that yourself. Able to do everything the player wants no. Playable in a game certainly, unless the ref is an A.H. and sets up that 1 skill character in a game where the one skill is useless and there's nothing else to do. Like a SMG-1 character on a world at peace with a high law level.

Skills, in CT, are not the total sum of all the character's expertise.

Correct, but a character's experience is not carte-blanche to try anything and expect a chance of success as you've been arguing for.

But I expect there's no convincing you and you're not proving your case to us on the other side. Let's just drop this whole thing, agree to disagree, and go back to the topic

 

[far-trader]

...As to the all weapons, ISTR that not all editions gave "all listed weapons" at 0, some printings said Gun Combat 0 and Brawling 0. I can't find my Bk 1's... I argued that with a Ref I played under, and he showed me his bk 1 which said gun combat 0, not all weapons on the list.

From the bit in Supplement 4 (I suspect). It strongly implies if not outright says Guns only, but references the rule in Book 1 which says or strongly implies Brawling, Guns, and Blades. A contradiction, unless 1st printing of Book 1 says otherwise.

 

[Supplement Four]

Dan, before I go, line by line, and make a long post showing you that I am right, answer me one simple question o:...



You go through character generation. You fail enlistment and submit to the draft, landing in the Navy. You get one skill: Pilot-1. And, because your GM uses the Surival Rule as it was meant to be used, you decide to muster out after that single term. You roll on the cash table, getting Cr10,000.

Now, your character looks like this:

Joe Starman 569AA9 Age 22 Cr10,000
Pilot-1



Answer this question: How in the world will that character ever be playable if actually having a skill in all 17 areas is a requirement for attempting those tasks?

 

[Jamus]

Thats why we have MT T4 T20 and MGT

 

[Supplement Four]

Thats why we have MT T4 T20 and MGT

Exactly my point. People are taking preceptions learned in those versions of Traveller and transferring them to Classic Traveller. CT doesn't work like that.

Joe Starman doesn't have to have the air/raft skill in order to pilot and air/raft.

And, for many skills, there is little or no penalty for attempting the task without the character having the skill.

As I stated above, in CT, skills show what the character is good at doing. The character's skill list is not a finite list of every type of task he can attempt.

Too many people believe that. They are colored by the rules of other Traveller games, and they don't know CT as well as they think they do.

 

[far-trader]

Dan, before I go, line by line, and make a long post showing you that I am right...

Please don't for my sake alone

...answer me one simple question o:...



You go through character generation. You fail enlistment and submit to the draft, landing in the Navy. You get one skill: Pilot-1. And, because your GM uses the Surival Rule as it was meant to be used, you decide to muster out after that single term. You roll on the cash table, getting Cr10,000.

Now, your character looks like this:

Joe Starman 569AA9 Age 22 Cr10,000
Pilot-1



Answer this question: How in the world will that character ever be playable if actually having a skill in all 17 areas is a requirement for attempting those tasks?

HEY! I get two skills first term!

But continuing...

You've already hit on one of my personal favorite (sometimes overlooked) helps, the Experience chapter.

I'd get a job on some ship and select some classes by computer (see sabbatical for guidelines) and pay my salary towards my lessons (about Cr1460/month) and have a level 2 skill added to my resume (probably level-0 to level-1 until completed).

And if the ref didn't go for it and offered up some game where all the action is sailing a boat for tourists with serious health problems (and me without any water-craft or medical skill or interest) then I'd tell the ref to take a long walk out a short airlock and I wouldn't darken his game again with the idea that maybe I was there to play a game and have fun.

Let's put it another way. I'm the ref and somebody in my group comes up with Joe Pilot, what do I do? I make sure there is a job for him as Pilot on a ship that gets involved in all kinds of action (so they can use their level-0 combat stuff) and work with them to see how and what other skills they want to gain.

Of course, I wouldn't have mustered that character out after just one term Not voluntarily, failing reenlistment after one draft term my answer is above.

 

[far-trader]

Exactly my point. People are taking preceptions learned in those versions of Traveller and transferring them to Classic Traveller. CT doesn't work like that.

Some may be. I'm not. I don't think anyone else speaking up is either.

And, for many skills, there is little or no penalty for attempting the task without the character having the skill.

Well, from "most" to "many" is progess I guess. I still don't see it as "many". More like a few.

EDIT: No strike that. For a few skills there is a penalty for trying it without skill. For most skills you can't even try it.

...they don't know CT as well as they think they do.

But you do right?

 

[Rhialto the Marvelous]

We must remember that TTB is essentially CT v2.1..

...and that the majority of people who played CT did so using Books 1-3 and never so much as looked at TTB. I know I haven't.

It does sound very interesting. I guess I should finally get it.

 

[Supplement Four]

But you do right?

From the responses I've seen here (things like always having to have a skill in order to roll a task), I do...not so obviously, though. I guess my arguments need to be more convincing. :smirk:

But, believe me (if you can). I am correct about this. CT characters are capable of doing many, many more things than their few skills will allow.

Joe Starman can pilot an air/raft, drive an ATV, gamble, and do all sorts of things--without having to have the skill on his character sheet.

Evidence is all over CT: In the number of skills CT characters get; in the places where having no skill is given a penalty (indicating that no skill and attempting a task is OK); even in combat, where having no skill for some careers (doctor) gets you a penalty with weapons.

A character with only 3 skills isn't meant to just be able to throw on those three skills. He's a well rounded individual, that knows many things, a little of a lot, but excels in those three areas where he has those skills.

If the radio is busted and nobody in the group has Electrical skill....guess what! They can still try to fix the radio! They get a roll!

It just won't be as likely for success as if they had a character in the group who does have Electrical skill.

Classic Traveller isn't the only game that operates this way. Check out D6 Star Wars. It's the same thing. Improved skills are where those characters are best, but they can still throw on skills that they haven't improved.

Classic Traveller was doing that back in the 70's.

Skill is not needed for many, many (most) throws in Classic Traveller.

 

[GypsyComet]

I'll agree with the point that CT isn't one edition, either, despite our tendency to treat it as such. There are differences, and the little nuances in skill handling is one of the areas with the most potential for differences.

Differences *within* CT belong next door in the CT area, however...

 

[Supplement Four]

Dan-o, my-man-o,...

Skill is in fact needed for most tasks in CT, 13 out of 17 tasks require skill 1 or better. Even adding in the non-redundant (treating weapons as Brawling, Gun, and Blade) default skills 15 of 25 (if I added right) skills require some skill (at least level 0). That is still most tasks requiring some skill.

What you get in the descriptions of the skills are examples of how to use the skill in certain situations--guidelines for the ref.

Obviously, what's being shown is that skill is not always a requirement in order for the character to make a throw. Sometimes, there's a penalty for not having skill. Sometimes, there's no penalty (or, the penalty is that no bonus is given). And, sometimes, the character is blocked from making the throw because the skill is required.

It depends on the situation.

And, we see that reflected in many CT sourcebooks and adventures throughout the line.

For example, I flip to the Shadows adventure. One task I see is this: Someone with navigation skill may notice (throw 9+; DM+2 if intel B+) that the fault corresponds to the juncture between the two ancient pyramids.

For that task, it's obvious that a character must have Navigation skill even to attempt it. No Navigation = No Throw.

But, several paragraphs later, in the same adventure, there's another task: It would require a leap to the cable (throw dexterity or less to succeed; DM + vacc suit skill, DM -3 if vacc suit skill is 0 or non-existent)...

Here, we have a vacc suit based task, but vacc suit is not a requirement. Not having vacc suit only hinders your chance of success.





The Big Presumption:
What you've got to remember is that most CT throws are based on the Big Presumption. What is the BP? It's the presumption that most CT PCs are from one of the original six careers (Navy, Marines, Army, Merchants, Scouts, Other), and that their backgrounds are fairly high tech (based on the types of skills they can get: Engineering, Pilot, Navigation, etc.).

Working from The Big Presumption, it's not a stretch to consider that every PC can pilot an air/raft, drive an ATV, or even operate the controls to pull someone out of low berth. (And, that's why actual skill is not needed in those areas to do those tasks.)

When GMs consider a throw in the game, they shouldn't consider if anyone or everybody can do it. They should consider how hard it would be for the character, given his background and previous career, to do it. And, if not focused on a single PC, then the BP should be used to help answer that question.

For careers outside the BP (aliens, Supplement 4 characters, etc), alterations to the BP are usually noted (as with the Barbarian, or the Doctor career being penalized with the weapon penalty if not skilled).





Think about it. If characters had to have skills as requirements for attempting most tasks, then many, many CT characters would not be playable!

Characters with two or three skills would not be playable!

And, that would be unrealistic, as well.

I stand by what I've been saying all along: CT PCs need not have skill in many (most) areas in order to make an attempt. The skills they have on their sheets is not a sum-total of everything they know. The skills represent what the areas in which the character excells.

In other words, the charcter may not have Bribery on his sheet, but that doesn't mean he can't attempt a bribe. He may not have ATV on his sheet, but that doesn't mean he can drive the ATV. He may not have Air/Raft on his sheet, but that doesn't mean he can't pilot an air/raft. He may not have Medical on his sheet, but that doesn't mean he can't bring a person out of low berth. Etc....



And, when considering my words, also consider The Big Presumption from above.

 

[opensent]

If you could drive an ATV without ATV-0, then why are zero level skills listed in the rules?

 

[Supplement Four]

If you could drive an ATV without ATV-0, then why are zero level skills listed in the rules?

Default skills and Zero Level skills are included in the rules for various reasons: Mechanically chief among them is the fact that Skill-0 avoids penalties for not having a skill in many instances.



For example, take the Administration skill. A basic throw using that skill is normally a 7+ throw with these DMs: DM -3 if no expertise; DM +2 per level of expertise.

So, a character with...

No Admin skill rolls: 2D for 10+

Admin-0 rolls: 2D for 7+

Admin-1 rolls: 2D for 5+

Admin-2 rolls: 2D for 3+

Admin-3 or better has automatic success



As you can see, it's definitely better in this circumstance to have Admin-0 instead of no skill at all, but having no skill does not preclude the character from attempting the throw.





Sometimes, there is no difference between having Skill-0 and no skill. As an example, look at the post above where I wrote the task where the character is to leap across the shaft. Skill-0 or no skill both provide a DM -3 penalty on the throw.





Remember, this is Classic Traveller. All types of throws are possible. Sometimes having no skill does not hinder you at all when making a throw:

For example, a character with no Medical skill can easily revive a low berth passenger simply by making a 5+ throw (6+ if the low berther's END is 6-).

A character without Air/Raft skill can perform high speed maneuvers while piloting an air/raft simply by making a 5+ throw (other modifiers may apply for weather or the condition of the craft or if gunfire is involved).

A character without Vacc Suit skill can jump un-tethered from one ship to the next by simply making a 10+ throw.





OTOH, having no skill will sometimes preclude you from even attempting the throw:

For example, Gunnery-1 is required to operate turret weapons. Navigation skill is required to make the task throw that I describe above to allow a PC to reconize the pyramid junctures. Vacc Suit-1 is required if a PC is to make any task throw to operate BattleDress. Medical-1 is required to treat Minor Wounds. Medical-3 is required to treat Serious Wounds.





And, sometimes, not having skill will only penalize you on the attempt--not preclude you from attempting the throw (Note that not getting a bonus for skill can also be viewed as a "penalty" to the throw.) as in this example: A character without Streetwise skill is penalized with a DM -5 when making the 5+ throw to find an official that can issue weapon licenses, hassle free.





Just like the unstructured task system in CT, where anything goes, the same can be said for the interpretation of skills.

Sometimes skills are a requirement.

Sometimes, they are not.

Sometimes the DM for having a skill is +1 per level.

Sometimes, the DM is +2, +3, +4, or more per level.

Sometimes the task is to roll high.

Sometimes the task is to roll low.

Somtimes, more or less than 2D are used on the throw.

Sometimes, not having a skill results in a penalty.

Sometimes, it doesn't.

It all depends on the situation.



And, while evaluating that situation, don't forget to consider The Big Presumption, described earlier in the thread.

 

[aramis]

Doesn't wash, S4.

your "big presumption" is just that: presumption.

You've built a very logical follow on based upon that presumption, but the presumption is flawed on its face, since the rules provide numerous cases where rules for other types are presented.

Such as steward skill; the presumption that anyone can do the job is explicit (TTB p27)

Mechanical, unlike electronic, is stronly implicit to allow unskilled use; both expect extensive DM's by attributes.

Most of the default skills section reads as a compromise for playability, rather than a default. That's the ony section that implies any benefit of being a PC.

 

[Supplement Four]

Doesn't wash, S4.

Nope. Sorry. What I'm saying is correct.

your "big presumption" is just that: presumption.

Not-so-much. The Big Presumption is fact when most of those rules were written. There were no other careers besides the original six. No other supplements had been written yet.

Thus, the rules are written with a bias towards characters from those careers.

When they were deciding what it took to bring a passenger out of low berth, they weren't thinking what it would take for grandma, from the TL 4 world, who'd never left her homeworld or even seen a low berth crib, to operate the controls and bring a passenger safely out of low berth.

They were thinking about how hard it would be for player characters to bring the passenger out of low berth.

"Player characters" means characters from the Navy, Marines, Army, Scouts, Merchants, or Other careers.

The Big Presumption is valid.

 

[aramis]

THe book you cite from (TTB) postdates the release of Supplement 4. If you doubt this, check page 159, which lists it. It also lists Adv 3, which also includes character generation expansion, specifically, droyne.

No, the presumption that the rules are explicitly PC oriented is bogus, especially since combat included specifics on unskilled penalties, even as it notes no PC's generated with the book will be subject to them. (TTB 37) Page 157 provides that generic thugs have skill 1 with their carried weapons.

Also, see Referee's responsibilities, TTB p102, which requires the NPCs to follow the rules like PC's do.

On the air/raft issue, I quote page 110: "Individuals usually must have skill in a specific vehicle type i order to properly opertate that form of transportation."
"All characters are assumed able to operate wheeled vehicles (in slow speed, non dangerous situations) without any skill."