Darrian TL16 fleet

[Whipsnade]

Does it make sense that two dozen of jump capable ships were left collecting dust in the outer space of Darrian system when they were desespeate for shipping to maintain contact with their colonies?

IMHO, it makes no sense at all.

I also can't see any good reason for sharing out their few remaining starships (three each?) among the colony worlds, worlds that don't have the infrastructure to operate, maintain, or repair them for any appreciable period of time.(1)

This isn't any good but it's the only thing I can come up with currently which might explain that dispersal: In the immediate and short term aftermath of the Maghiz, the Darrians were fearful that Tanis(?) might flare again and so dispersed as many assets as they could. Once that "flare scare" wore off, perhaps because they'd sussed out the first explanation presented in AM:8, time, manpower, and resources were too tight to recover all but the most needed of the dispersed assets. Warships weren't needed as much as freighters, so they were left in the outer system and eventually forgot.

Like I said, pretty lame.

FWIW, I quite like your SDB suggestion and might very well add it to MTU.

However, as you note:

And, as odd as it might seem at first glance to most of us, too tied to previous assumptions and thinking, doesn't this keep with those requirements?

What sort of explanation can be created that will work well enough for the greatest number of people? What's the OTU explanation in other words?

1 - While I had no explanation for why those starships were parceled out among all the colony worlds, it didn't stop me from concocting a bit of incidental "treasure" for a series of adventures set on MTU's version of Winston.

The players were exploring the Eski Toprak region looking for a lost grav scow. That region had been Winston's main population center with settlement dating from the pre-Maghiz era up through the First Invasion when it was pummeled from orbit by Sword World forces, so it holds many ruins. The players eventually found the missing scow and the people who were responsible for it going missing too.

Among the rubbish and artifacts those people have been digging out of various ruins was a flat plaque about the size of an iPad with walnut-sized sphere embedded at the bottom. The sphere could rotated in any direction and it displayed a simple globe of Darrian. Whatever region of the globe faced upward, that region was displayed on the plaque. Users could expand or contract the plaque's display zooming about as far as what you can now see on Google Maps; houses, cars, etc. (iPads and Google Maps didn't yet exist in the early 90s when I made this up.)

The view wasn't "live", but the images had been captured over two centuries after the Maghiz. Someone had orbited Darrian and gathered all the images long after the worlds in the Darrians had lost interstellar flight. The images had then been programmed into the plaque and the plaque had somehow found it's way to Winston.

The artifact is priceless, of course, and there are no real answers to be had concerning it's provenance. It's just a nice little mysterious wonder like the Phaistos Disc.

 

[Whipsnade]

OK.

Yes, they explored quite some distance considering they were using jump2 drives.

That twenty parsec radius to trailing puts you through Sword Worlds, Lunion, and just into Mora. Twenty parsecs spinward puts you through Reidain and across the next subsector spinward. Coreward puts through Querion and just 2 parsecs into Cronor. Rimward puts you through the 5 Sisters and not quite through Menorial.

That's a nice chunk of territory

But that's exploration, not a presence and certainly not the spawling interstellar presence covering several subsectors you want to believe.

After that burst of exploration, they concentrated closer to home. Look at your own quotes, they had an extensive presence in District 268 and they maintained several establishments in the Sword Worlds subsector. They have a presence in two subsectors right next door and no mention of a presence in all the other subsectors they explored.

It's flatly stated right there in the passage you quoted too: After a relatively brief period of exploration, Darrian concentrated further efforts of exploration and colonization on the worlds closer to home. That's definitely not a spawling interstellar presence covering several subsectors.

"Presence" does not equate "exploration". That's why the writers of AM:8 used two different words. Presence means being present or, more specifically in this case a group of people, especially soldiers or police, stationed in a particular place. The Darrians did not have any presence of any type in the places you think they did.

As for the Vargr, read AM:3. They weren't where you want to think they were at that point in time.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

But that's exploration, not a presence and certainly not the spawling interstellar presence covering several subsectors you want to believe.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com: several = "More than two but not many"

AM8, p24: "There was an extensive presence in District 268"
AM8, p24: "Darrian maintained several establishments in the Sword Worlds subsector. Mining colonies ..."

So they had presence in at least three subsectors, which in English appears to fall under the definition of several.

AM8, p9: "Between -1370 and -1270 ... the rusting ruins of a gas refinery can still be found on Talchek [District 268]"

So already in the first century of interstellar travel they had outposts 10 pc away at the far end of District 268.

As for the Vargr, read AM:3. They weren't where you want to think they were at that point in time.

AM4, p8: "They encountered Vargr in Gvurrdon sector in -2,800."
AM3, p42: "This adventure is set in the Gvurrdon sector. ... Almost anyone can tell that the language is a Vargr tongue. Analysis of the paper of the document places its age at about 2,000 years old. A qualified linguist can identify the language as Arrghoun, which was prominent throughout this sector about 2,500 years ago."

 

[aramis]

Book 2 defines the terms used throughout Traveller for space craft of various types.

Definitions: A vessel is any interplanetary or interstellar vehicle. A ship is any vessel of 100 tons or more. A starship is a ship which has jump drives and can travel on interstellar voyages. A non-starship is a ship without jump drives. A small craft is any vessel under 100 tons; all small craft are incapable of jump.
(Book 2, 1981 edition, page 12, emphasis original.)

Breaking it out into a more modern approach to definitions:

Definitions:

• A vessel is any interplanetary or interstellar vehicle.
  • A ship is any vessel of 100 tons or more.
    • A starship is a ship which has jump drives and can travel on interstellar voyages.
    • A non-starship is a ship without jump drives.
  • A small craft is any vessel under 100 tons; all small craft are incapable of jump.

Darrians refers to Starships. Warships isn't defined in Bk 2, nor in Bk 5, but it's used in the Darrians book in reference to surviving starships.​

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I reread the definitions, I think there are two nomenclatures involved: Civilian (LBB2) and Imperial Navy (S09).

CT:S09, p9:"A battle rider is a non-jump-capable capital ship ..."
CT:S09, p9:"(Note: in naval parlance, the term ship is reserved for jump-capable vessels, while non-jump capable vessels are referred to as boats, riders, or monitors)."

So civilians may call a Battle Rider a ship, but naval (and marine) personnel will not.


MT:FSotSI goes into mental contortions:
p5: "The Imperial Navy uses the term ship for any vessel capable of jump. It uses a variety of terms (including boat, rider, and monitor) to identify all other vessels."
p5: "The Imperial Navy acknowledges five broad ship types in its service: scouts, escorts. cruisers, carriers, and battleships."
p5: "The broad type of battleship is further divided into many more clearly defined types. Besides battleships, there are dreadnoughts, battle riders, and battle tenders."
p5: "A battle rider is a nonjump-capable vessel which is otherwise armed and armored like a battleship."

So, a Battle Rider is a type of Battleship.
A Battleship is a type of Ship.
A Battle Rider is not a type of Ship, but a Rider.
A Battle Tender is not a type of Carrier, but a type of Battleship.
After a millennia or two, Imperial Navy nomenclature has more to do with tradition than logic.


Starship can only mean one thing in either nomenclature, a Jump-capable space vessel.

 

[McPerth]

Can I just clear the air a bit by saying I like your idea, it has potential.

I don't see any need to clear the air, as I don't see it polluted. We have differences, and we discuss them politely. Nice for your part in any case.

FWIW, I quite like your SDB suggestion and might very well add it to MTU.

It's worth to me that you both, with all your proven knwoledge ot Traveller (no pun here), like the option, even while seeing canon problems on it.

I'll quote S:9 again
This is the definitive version of Imperial ship/boat/rider/monitor nomenclature

Note the lack of SDBs, riders or monitors in the list because they are not ships.

and they forget the fighters among the non-jump capable ships...

Definitions: A vessel is any interplanetary or interstellar vehicle. A ship is any vessel of 100 tons or more. A starship is a ship which has jump drives and can travel on interstellar voyages. A non-starship is a ship without jump drives. A small craft is any vessel under 100 tons; all small craft are incapable of jump.
(Book 2, 1981 edition, page 12, emphasis original.)

(and also for similar posts)

Yes, I aknowledge this technical differences, but no one uses always the techincal correct term.

As said in my previous post, the depots definitions in MT:RS only talk about Starships as being serviced, harbored and trained in depots. Does that mean no raiders, boats or fighters are? sure not. We know (SMC, page 32) that the 154^th Battle Raider Squadron was reorganized from BBs to BRs in the depot in Fornast, so depots also service non-jump ships, and yet the term Starship is used in MT:RS englobing them too.

Battle Riders are a thing in S:9.
In the Section titled Imperial Fleet:

(...)The solution arrived at was to concentrate all rider BatRons in the strategic reserves while manning the frontier delaying forces exclusively with ships.

And where are those reserve squadrons based and serviced, whose striking power relies in non-starships, based and serviced, if the depots are told to service starships and this term does not include them?

The problem is, since we have a canon adhering solution that does not require the additional linguistic gymnastics or TU assumption

The use of a term incluiding what would not technically fit on it as a generalization for language easiness is not lingusitic gymnastics IMHO, but quite a usual thing, and, as shown it has been used in Traveller canon material in this specific case.

 

[McPerth]

OK.

Yes, they explored all this area, but it's also specified that they didn't contact the Zhodani, that were the only space spanning race in the zone by then, so, they didn't see an immediate threat.

Nonetheless, they knnew those races existed, and specifically that the Vargr were not too far and were a quick spanding and aggresive one, so they probably saw them as a distant threat.

And while you don't take immediate measures against a distant (and uncertain) threat, you begin preaparing for it. Building a navy takes time, so my guess is that they built some fleet, albeit probably at a slow pace. The fact those relic ships are refered as Warships seems also to point that way.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

And while you don't take immediate measures against a distant (and uncertain) threat, you begin preaparing for it. Building a navy takes time, so my guess is that they built some fleet, albeit probably at a slow pace. The fact those relic ships are refered as Warships seems also to point that way.

Sounds reasonable enough.

 

[Dagrill]

OTOH, the quotes Mike kindly provided and other canonical statements seem to point away from SDBs however, so I'm going to have to mull things over.

There are lots of imponderables here that we can mull over. For example, why do you think those warships found in 390 had been stockpiled in the outer system? Why not parked at a Lagrange point or three which would be easier to get to or not as easily forgotten? They stockpiled them out there and then lost track of them for over 1200 years. It's almost as if they wanted to hide them for some reason and then over time forgot where they were hidden.

I'm reading through this thread so if this has been addressed later my apologies. I'm not keen on Mongoose's portrayal of Sigma Fleet as all Cruisers

Mongoose T has the Dariens favouring SDB carriers, rather than fighters. So how about 3 large heavy SDB carriers (3I Battle Tenders), 3 large escorts (big destroyers/light cruises) and 9 small escorts, the alleged 16th warship being broken up for spares.

The Darien Military could easily have built the ships under various non-threatening titles like Large Scientific Research Ship, or Response test platform (like the Japanese escort that looks like a carrier on another thread).

If their exact nature was clouded in secrecy the knowledge could easily have been lost, leading to their rediscovery.

Kind regards

David

 

[Condottiere]

Mining ship.

 

[Dagrill]

Known Facts:
Those ships are likely to be in fact not true ships, but boats. Probably deep reserve SDB squadrons (kept powered down hidden in outer system (Oort cloud, Trojan asteroids, etc) in wait for them to be needed, as is told to be usual strategy for them in most fleets).

Hi,

I've reread my CT Darrians and it specifically mentions 16 TL16 warships.

However, looking at the J1 chain of the current Darrian Confederation and the fact they didn't colonise into the Sword Worlds, I've come up with the following explanation.

The warships are buffered planetoid hulls in the 20 to 80 kiloton range, with J1 drives. This gives them survivability over the 800 year period.
Some might have test bed platforms for anti-matter power plants (early versions buildable at TL16/17 under T5 rules).
They have advanced stealth drives and hulls (using MgT rules)

How does that work for you?

Kind Regards

David

 

[robject]

Good suggestions Dagrill. Especially that those Darrian ships are (or originally were) Jump-1.

I was thinking about the hull survivability problem created by Alien Module 8, and I've just about decided that there's no silver bullet.

In short, just as I think a TL16 ship can be crappily built, so a TL15 ship could theoretically be lovingly maintained indefinitely. However, the realities are that the basic quality of construction is the key to the half-life of a ship class.

That's about as far as I got.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I would disagree with J-1 generally.

"There was an extensive presence in District 268."
"Darrian maintained several establishments in the Sword Worlds subsector."

 

[robject]

I would disagree with J-1 generally.

"There was an extensive presence in District 268."
"Darrian maintained several establishments in the Sword Worlds subsector."

This is true. And we know the Darrians had outposts in (for example) the Bowman Belt and at least visited 567-908, as well as a buncha other worlds.

Not Sustainable Colonies

On the other hand, they did not settle any other worlds, at least not in a self-sufficient colony way.

But Surely There Were Enemies

On the Gripping Hand, however, we have no idea what opposition the Darrians faced back in the day. I seem to recall that they had no direct enemies, plus we've got no human colonization anywhere near.

But, how boring a universe that would be. So just assuming they had reason to patrol their sphere of influence, then they would indeed need warships with longer legs. That said, perhaps these ships need their full range any longer, and may have additional armor and weapons which they originally didn't have. But that's another matter.

Via Media

But here's yet another option. The warships were and are indeed Jump-1 vessels, but each also has a large tender which can scoop it up and transport it across longer distances.

Aside

As an aside, I note that TL16 warships would have Black Globes, and TL16 Fleet Couriers would most likely be Jump-7 (that would almost certainly require the use of drop tanks).

 

[McPerth]

I would disagree with J-1 generally.

"There was an extensive presence in District 268."
"Darrian maintained several establishments in the Sword Worlds subsector."

This is IMHO a weak reason to believe the Darrians cannot have J1 ships, as the imperium has many of them, regardelss of being capable to build up to J6.

THe fact this fleet could be J1 does not mean the Darrians don't have greater jump ships for other uses...

Hi,

I've reread my CT Darrians and it specifically mentions 16 TL16 warships.

However, looking at the J1 chain of the current Darrian Confederation and the fact they didn't colonise into the Sword Worlds, I've come up with the following explanation.

The warships are buffered planetoid hulls in the 20 to 80 kiloton range, with J1 drives. This gives them survivability over the 800 year period.
Some might have test bed platforms for anti-matter power plants (early versions buildable at TL16/17 under T5 rules).
They have advanced stealth drives and hulls (using MgT rules)

How does that work for you?

Not too well, I'm afraid...

Here enters Whipsnade argument about the perceived threats for the pre-maghiz Darrians.

Buffered planetoids (and not buffered ones, for what's worth) are quite cheap, but inefficient in other ways (mostly in volume).

The volume needed for them for structural integrity is quite higher than what would be needed to achieve the free armor they have (At least at high TLs), so its use is only really efficient when you want more armor than what's allowed by your TL.

Why whould pre-Maghiz Darrians, that only knew about remote posible threats, need ships with such heavy armor?

See also that they cannot be steamlined, not even partially, so they relly on other ships or facilities for refuelling, something you don't want in your military ships, as that makes them too "supply heavy" and strategically slow. In fact, I expect planetoids (buffered or not) to be mainly used for non-jump ships (mostly SDBs/Monitors).

And those same arguments (except refuelling) are against the idea of the 20-80 kdton ships, as they are too large for the threats pre-Maghiz Darrians perceived. I'd expect their warships (this time meaning specifically jump capable, even to me :devil to be (at most) in the light cruiser range (20-30 kdton), while their heavy SDBs/monitors (see this post for the taxonomy I use for them) on the 5-20 kdton range.

As for the J1 possibility, I don't ever expect military ships to be so slow if they have the tech to be faster, as you need quite more of them to cover the same area. A J1 fleet would not be a good derretant agains the Swordies or Zho's, that could outrun it quite easily.

Spoiler

This aside, in AM8 page 24 it is told that they are based in a secret base J2 rimward of Zamene (so hex 0425). J1 ships would be quite slow to respond from there, aside from needing fuel capacity for 2 jumps, so forfeiting the main advantage of J1

Of course, this is unless they are used as BRs (albeit jump capable ones)...

And see that the possibility of their JD being downgraded for lack of mainentance along the centuries is also quite improbable, again IMHO, as TL15 JD are not different from TL16 ones, and I guess JDs (and MDs) would be among the easiest components to maintain (or even overhaul or refit with TL15 ones). At least in MT, he only versión I know that has desing rules for TL16+ ships.

EDIT: As for TL16/17 antimatter power plants, AM8, page 16 it says that pre-Maghiz Darrians had reached the point where they were marginally economical to produce antimatter, but I'd expect any such PP to be a prototype, and not able to be as durable as the rest of the ships (aside fro mthe lack of maintenance for the last about 800 years, as I can buy they can maintain TL16 fusion PP, but it's quite harder for me to believe it for AM PPs)

 

[Whipsnade]

The warships are buffered planetoid hulls in the 20 to 80 kiloton range, with J1 drives.

How does that work for you?

Sorry, I don't buy it.

Higher jump ratings are simply too helpful and planetoid hulls are simply too restrictive. For the former, look at Darrian's known radius of exploration and surviving colonies. For the latter, look at the refueling restrictions for planetoid hulls.

"There was an extensive presence in District 268."
"Darrian maintained several establishments in the Sword Worlds subsector."

None of which lasted three generations after the Maghiz.

Once again, what canon shows us is far more important than what canon tells us. This is Traveller. "Wheels within wheels" has been part of it from the first.

Look beyond the fluff text and think about what you're shown instead of believing what you're told.

 

[robject]

This is Traveller. "Wheels within wheels" has been part of it from the first.

And the best stuff we cook up for Traveller tends to follow the wheels within wheels approach.

 

[Whipsnade]

And the best stuff we cook up for Traveller tends to follow the wheels within wheels approach.

That cannot be repeated more often.

Darrian's colonies are as good as place as any to examine Traveller's "wheels within wheels" approach. There is what we're told and what we're shown and the two don't match up that often.

We all too often forget there is a settlement map in AM:8. It's hidden in plain sight on the "Effects of the Maghiz (-925 to -907)" map on page 11. The page's secondary title flatly states "Worlds without names and starports are unsettled in -925".

That "extensive presence" canon mentions in District 268? Four worlds out of 32 or 12.5 percent; Bowman, Dawnworld, Faldor, and 567-908(1). While the text also mentions of a rusting gas refinery on Talchek bumping that "presence" up a notch, what are we told and what are we shown?

Those "several establishments" in the Sword Worlds? A better match this time; Anduril, Caladbolg, Colada, Excalibur, Flammarion, Gram, Joyeuse, and Tizon are listed on the map while Gungnir is mentioned in the text. Despite that bigger number, no Darrian presence still existed in -399 when the Gram Fleet arrived. Again, what are we told and what are we shown?

The best match between what we're told and what we're shown occurs when we examine those systems specifically referred to as "colonies". They're repeatedly said to be the 12 worlds in the Darrian Group; a jump1 cluster or peninsular including Darrian and Mire. (Jacent seems to be the coreward "border" of the Group.) After exploring a 20 parsec radius(2), the Darrians decided to concentrate closer to home and began colonizing the Group. Populations on the worlds of the entire group survived the Maghiz and subsequent "Night Time".

Named worlds outside of that group of 12 are referred to as "outposts" or "settlements" but never as "colonies". Some like Entrope or Zamine, despite not being called "colonies", managed to survive the Maghiz but most did not. In this case, we need to combine what we're told with what we're shown to understand the entire picture.


1 - Need an adventure seed? 567-908 is the Shrieker Homeworld.

2 - Need another adventure seed? Alenzar, the Chamax Home System is only seven parsecs from Darrian.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

If Darrians are Space Elves, then the Sword Worlders would be the Orks, and generally, you structure your armed forces against the biggest threat you face.

If that threat is four tech levels below you, you fry his electronics.

Oi! Who you calling Ork!

 

[aramis]

That "extensive presence" canon mentions in District 268? Four worlds out of 32 or 12.5 percent; Bowman, Dawnworld, Faldor, and 567-908(1).

Correction: 4 SYSTEMS - not 4 worlds.
Correction: Presence ≠ Colonized.

On 4 systems: everything we've seen about system colonization patterns makes system exploitation extremely common - and habs appear on almost anything that neither melts the habs nor is melted by the habs. Even Pluto... (9 Pluto F10046C F N Research Lab...) ...According to Bk 6. More than 10 k people!

And in re presence - vs - colonization
We (the US) have no colonial nor permanent resident population in the Minor Outlying Territories. We have a research station on two of the 10+ islands, and we sent warships through routinely, but no one LIVES there.

Likewise, the US maintains a presence in the FSM, which is an autonomous nation... who happens to hire the USN to patrol for them. (And has a higher per-capita rate of enlistment in the US military than any US state or territory. Officers from the FSM are limited to O6...)

It's quite possible that the Pre-Maghiz Darrians patrolled most of the subsector, but only as a boundary patrol.