Darrian TL16 fleet

[Dagrill]

Darrian's colonies are as good as place as any to examine Traveller's "wheels within wheels" approach. There is what we're told and what we're shown and the two don't match up that often.

We all too often forget there is a settlement map in AM:8. It's hidden in plain sight on the "Effects of the Maghiz (-925 to -907)" map on page 11. The page's secondary title flatly states "Worlds without names and starports are unsettled in -925".

That "extensive presence" canon mentions in District 268? Four worlds out of 32 or 12.5 percent; Bowman, Dawnworld, Faldor, and 567-908(1). While the text also mentions of a rusting gas refinery on Talchek bumping that "presence" up a notch, what are we told and what are we shown?

Those "several establishments" in the Sword Worlds? A better match this time; Anduril, Caladbolg, Colada, Excalibur, Flammarion, Gram, Joyeuse, and Tizon are listed on the map while Gungnir is mentioned in the text. Despite that bigger number, no Darrian presence still existed in -399 when the Gram Fleet arrived. Again, what are we told and what are we shown?

The best match between what we're told and what we're shown occurs when we examine those systems specifically referred to as "colonies". They're repeatedly said to be the 12 worlds in the Darrian Group; a jump1 cluster or peninsular including Darrian and Mire. (Jacent seems to be the coreward "border" of the Group.) After exploring a 20 parsec radius(2), the Darrians decided to concentrate closer to home and began colonizing the Group. Populations on the worlds of the entire group survived the Maghiz and subsequent "Night Time".

Hi,

I was flicking through the T5 revised rules an spotted a bit under NIL giving populations of 1-3 as Transients and 4-6 as Settlements, the initial steps in creating a colony.

I'm thinking the outposts have a max size in the x000 and settlements of x,000,000. Whilst the systems in the Darien home group are established colonies with over 10 million sentients.

Kind Regards

David

 

[Whipsnade]

Correction: 4 SYSTEMS - not 4 worlds.

Yup, Bowman is a belt and not a world.

Correction: Presence ≠ Colonized.

Didn't notice the quotation marks around the phrase "extensive presence", huh?

Anyway, my point and your point are the same. Another Dilbert's earlier contention in the thread that the Darrians needs a large navy with large ships isn't supported by what we are shown in canon.

He latched onto the phrase "extensive presence", presumed that meant there was large scale Darrian settlement in District 268, and decided a large navy with large ships was therefore necessary. The settlement map on page 11 doesn't support that, nor does anything else in the AM.

It's quite possible that the Pre-Maghiz Darrians patrolled most of the subsector, but only as a boundary patrol.

That's very possible. The Darrians explored out to 20 parsecs themselves and have the Itzin Fleet's survey/scouting records. They most likely know about many of the nearby minor races; Chamax, Shriekers, Craw's natives, etc. They're most likely aware of the remnants of the Sindalian empire. It's also entirely possible that the Itzin Fleet identified the Vilani exile colony on Vanejan.

If Hans was right about the Sindalian remnants maintaining a minimal jump capability through salvage, the Darrians would have wanted to keep some sort of watch on the region lest the Sindalians enjoy a renaissance and come raiding.

I was flicking through the T5 revised rules an spotted a bit under NIL giving populations of 1-3 as Transients and 4-6 as Settlements, the initial steps in creating a colony. I'm thinking the outposts have a max size in the x000 and settlements of x,000,000. Whilst the systems in the Darien home group are established colonies with over 10 million sentients.

I'm not buying it.

AM:8 was published nearly thirty years ago in 1987. I can't see how anything in T5 can be specifically relevant to a text written that long ago. Look at it this way, do you believe that T5's NIL rules were written with explaining AM:8's settlement claims in mind?

The numbers don't work either. I can come up with several reasons why an outpost of x,000 on a shirtsleeve world die out, but a settlement numbering x,000,000? Leaving aside the question of how many colonies Darrian could scout, site, found, and grow to such a size, a colony with that number of people means they're feeding themselves. Dawnworld would die out thanks to the canonical "taint" there, but why would worlds like Gram, Tizon, or Colada?

The colonies within the Darrian group survived because they were large enough to survive and they were large enough to survive because they were close to Darrian. A select portion of the second generation of Darrian's starships had jump3 drives, but jump2 seems to have been norm despite Darrian's tech level. All but three worlds in the Darrian Group are within two parsecs of Darrian and all but one within three parsecs. With a few exceptions, all the rest were too far away to be supported enough to be heavily settled or grow large enough to survive.

So, while the map on page 11 of 1987's AM:8 talks about settlements, it doesn't follow that the settlement rules in 2015's T5 apply.

 

[aramis]

Extensive presence, in the text, doesn't need settlement, Bill. It only needs actually putting boots in the systems on a regular basis. The map doesn't negate it at all.

What it does illustrate is that the text doesn't mean "extensive colonization."

 

[Whipsnade]

Extensive presence, in the text, doesn't need settlement, Bill.

Which is what I've been saying for several posts now, Wil.

Another Dilbert suggested extensive presence equated settlement which in turn would give the the Darrians reason to build CruRons.

It only needs actually putting boots in the systems on a regular basis. The map doesn't negate it at all.

Exactly. The map shows that "extensive presence" doesn't mean "settlement".

What it does illustrate is that the text doesn't mean "extensive colonization."

Again, exactly. Presence simply means presence. Settlement and colonization are not implied.

 

[Dagrill]

AM:8 was published nearly thirty years ago in 1987. I can't see how anything in T5 can be specifically relevant to a text written that long ago. Look at it this way, do you believe that T5's NIL rules were written with explaining AM:8's settlement claims in mind?

So, while the map on page 11 of 1987's AM:8 talks about settlements, it doesn't follow that the settlement rules in 2015's T5 apply.

I don't think they were designed to specifically address this situation, but the situation is within the subset it is designed to cover and I'm sure MM has a working knowledge of what has been previously published.

To die out they must have all been very small colonies, so I find this a conflict with the term extensive presence. Although, some one else believes that extensive presence doesn't necessarily mean full scale colonies, I find it hard to believe the Dariens didn't try and colonise into the SW, D268 to at the least give themselves a buffer zone.

Kind Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

Sorry, I don't buy it.
Higher jump ratings are simply too helpful and planetoid hulls are simply too restrictive. For the former, look at Darrian's known radius of exploration and surviving colonies. For the latter, look at the refueling restrictions for planetoid hulls.

Someone said the Dariens were space elves, so I was trying to think how you'd be sneaky in space and planetoids seemed the solution.

Perhaps if the Sword Worlders are space Dwarfs planetoids make more sense for them...


Kind Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

Hi,

another thought on the subject, irrespective of jump capacity, the 16 TL16 warships (or most of them) can not have possessed spinal mounts or the would have been used to bombard Narsil.

Narsil is on the border of the SW confederation and was not colonised or re-colonised by the Dariens after they rediscovered the jump drive allowing the Swordies to get there first, despite having further to go. Narsil with 20 billion population has over 50% off the entire sword worlds population, so there is obviously no perceived threat from the Dariens.

However, despite sitting around doing nothing for centuries the TL16 AI on these warships has immensely more experience than the Captains of those ship.

Kind regards

David

 

[McPerth]

Hi,

another thought on the subject, irrespective of jump capacity, the 16 TL16 warships (or most of them) can not have possessed spinal mounts or the would have been used to bombard Narsil.

Narsil is on the border of the SW confederation and was not colonised or re-colonised by the Dariens after they rediscovered the jump drive allowing the Swordies to get there first, despite having further to go. Narsil with 20 billion population has over 50% off the entire sword worlds population, so there is obviously no perceived threat from the Dariens.

I don't believe such planetary bombing to be in the plans of Darrians. Darrians are depicted as quite a paceful race, only resorting to violence when other options have been discarded, and no such bombings occur in Traveller canon (at least in Imperial era) before the Black War in the Rebellion.

And if they intended to, the TL 14-15 fleet bought from the Imperial (or built by themselves in modern times) would be more tan enough against TL A Narsil, without risking their irremplaceble TL16 core.

Another side subject would be that if they want to destroy a full system population and do it with their fleet, some people would begin to wonder what they have the Special Branch and its Star Trigger for...

Spoiler

In fact, this could be seen as a proof that the Star Trigger is not a true threat if they bomb a major planet, with similar effects, without using it

However, despite sitting around doing nothing for centuries the TL16 AI on these warships has immensely more experience than the Captains of those ship.

See that in CT/MT (and AFAIK any version before MgT) true AI is TL17, and so the Darrian flet cannot have true AI in their ships.

 

[Whipsnade]

another thought on the subject, irrespective of jump capacity, the 16 TL16 warships (or most of them) can not have possessed spinal mounts or the would have been used to bombard Narsil.

No.

Unless ret-conned as part of the T5SS project, Narsil's primary masses more than twice that of Sol, has a radius of ~3 times that of Sol, and is over 4 times more luminous than Sol. Also, IIRC, Narsil hab zone is Orbit 5 or 6, compared to Sol's 3.

All this means that Narsil's primary exerts a 100D limit which will take a ship thrusting at 1g over thirty days to travel between the stellar 100D limit and Narsil.

Like Trifuge, Stellatio, or Mongo, Narsil is a "deep" system whose astrographic nature makes it a "natural fortress" much like a how a city can be shielded behind a river, estuary, or mountain ridge.

The Darrian Confederation hasn't "spined" the population of Narsil because any ships sent to do that task will be forced to operate in the Narsil system for months and thus be at ever increasing risk for that entire period.

A "lack" of spinal mounts has nothing to do with it.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Another Dilbert suggested extensive presence equated settlement which in turn would give the the Darrians reason to build CruRons.

No, I did not.

A resource outpost would mean ships going back and forth, that might require policing or coast guard services. They also knew of nearby potentially unfriendly aliens.

They lacked a direct, immediate external threat, but they knew other starfaring cultures existed, not all that far away. They also had to police their own worlds and interstellar interests. That is why I suggested cruiser, or cruiser-like, ships rather than battleships. If the TL 16 warships were not armed with spinals or many factor A+ bays no-one would care about them.

There is one thing we know: AM8 does not contain enough information to settle this discussion, so we are all just guessing.

 

[Whipsnade]

No, I did not.

Yes, you did and you can read your own words in this quote from Post #13:

So, I assumed they would maintain some light ships with spinals, that we could call cruisers (or riders).

"... light ships with spinals, that we would call cruisers..."

(emphasis mine)

In other posts to this thread, you repeatedly referred to cruisers and even suggested specific meson gun spinal mount sizes.

That's what you wrote and the posts are in this thread.

A resource outpost would mean ships going back and forth, that might require policing or coast guard services.

Cops and coast guards don't carry meson spinal mounts.

There is one thing we know: AM8 does not contain enough information to settle this discussion, so we are all just guessing.

AM:8 is not an island.

AM:8, the deadtree JTAS article, S:3, GT:H, RSB, and others all contain enough information which thoughtful readers can use to make informed guesses.

YMMV.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Another Dilbert suggested extensive presence equated settlement which in turn would give the the Darrians reason to build CruRons.

No, I did not.

Yes, you did and you can read your own words in this quote from Post #13:

No, I did not. I have said nothing about extensive settlement as far as I can remember.

 

[Whipsnade]

No, I did not. I have said nothing about extensive settlement as far as I can remember.

Oh for Christ's sake...

From Post #53: The Darrians had a spawling interstellar presence covering several subsectors for over 400 years...

There's also Post #79 in which you quote lengthy passages from AM:8, quotes you didn't quite understand, Post #83 in which you link us to the Oxford English Dictionary while again quoting chunks from AM:8, and Post #93 in which you bleat yet again about "There was an extensive presence in District 268." and "Darrian maintained several establishments in the Sword Worlds subsector.".

You spent most of your time in this thread arguing that the pre-Maghiz Darrians built a navy which included meson gun spinal mount armed cruisers because their supposed "sprawling interstellar presence" demanded it, but now you want to backpedal by claiming you only meant cops and coast guards?

Sure, whatever.

 

[robject]

We most certainly are nerds, at least, to get so peeved over the extent of Darrian settlement and/or presence in the Spinward Marches.

 

[flykiller]

there should be an imperial order of tri-lambdas.

anybody want to do up a crest of pencils and slide-rules?

 

[Meteoric Assault]

there should be an imperial order of tri-lambdas.

anybody want to do up a crest of pencils and slide-rules?

you are on!
:CoW:

 

[McPerth]

AM:8 is not an island.

AM:8, the deadtree JTAS article, S:3, GT:H, RSB, and others all contain enough information which thoughtful readers can use to make informed guesses.

(bold is mine)

Excuse me, but what article are you meaning in JTAS? Supplement 3 (about missiles)?

Unfortunately, I don't have access to the other materials you talk about here (GT:H and RSB), so I keep basing my guesses and conclusions (as specified at the begining of the thread, one of many posibles, others have appeared here) mostly in CT:AM8 and the references in CT:SMC.

Are in those books you tell more specific references about the Darrian TL16 fleet (aside what was already commented in this thread about a patrol cruiser being used to help the Regency to reverese engineer TL16 ships)?

 

[mike wightman]

S3 = Supplement 3 The Spinward Marches where we first learn that Darrian is supposedly TL16.
JTAS 14 had the original Contact: Darrians article.

 

[McPerth]

S3 = Supplement 3 The Spinward Marches where we first learn that Darrian is supposedly TL16.
JTAS 14 had the original Contact: Darrians article.

TY, I understood JTAS S:3, and didn't understand it (I've even reviewed the missiles supplment, not undertanding why was it relevant)

 

[Dagrill]

No.Unless ret-conned as part of the T5SS project, Narsil's primary masses more than twice that of Sol, has a radius of ~3 times that of Sol, and is over 4 times more luminous than Sol. Also, IIRC, Narsil hab zone is Orbit 5 or 6, compared to Sol's 3.
All this means that Narsil's primary exerts a 100D limit which will take a ship thrusting at 1g over thirty days to travel between the stellar 100D limit and Narsil.
Like Trifuge, Stellatio, or Mongo, Narsil is a "deep" system whose astrographic nature makes it a "natural fortress" much like a how a city can be shielded behind a river, estuary, or mountain ridge.
The Darrian Confederation hasn't "spined" the population of Narsil because any ships sent to do that task will be forced to operate in the Narsil system for months and thus be at ever increasing risk for that entire period.
A "lack" of spinal mounts has nothing to do with it.

Wow!

First, I'm impressed, I've never considered spectral mass as affecting Traveller ships in this way. Second, I'm now thinking I've spent 35 years playing the game the wrong way.

I don't know I it's a retcon but Narsil has 2 stars, a G6IV and a M0V.

Since my last post I've purchased the Gurps bag of holding and read the Gurps Humaniti Darien article. It specifically splits the Darien TL16 Fleet into 2 squadrons one part facing the Zhodani and the other facing the Swordies, given the relative strength of the 2 empires I suspect the better armed ships are facing the Zho's.

It also says all spaceships came under the star mapping service, who approved the use of ships and their HQ was destroyed with all records in the Maghiz, a reasonable explanation for losing a couple of dozen ships (although why a backup was not kept somewhere else is a problem). They were also responsible for holding back Darien colonisation efforts. The ships apparently have a self repair facility.

Finally, post 5FW the Dariens find another 8 'cruisers', which are only 500 ton Warships.

Kind regards

David