Darrian TL16 fleet

[Whipsnade]

TY, I understood JTAS S:3, and didn't understand it (I've even reviewed the missiles supplment, not undertanding why was it relevant)

There's a comma separating "the deadtree JTAS article" and S:3.

I was referring to both the Contact: Darrians article and the Spinward Marches supplement. There's nothing in Special Supplement:3 Missiles, or SS:3, about the Darrians.

I should have written things more clearly.

... I've never considered spectral mass as affecting Traveller ships in this way. Second, I'm now thinking I've spent 35 years playing the game the wrong way.

You haven't been playing it the wrong way. You been it your way, which is the only way that truly counts. Along as you've been internally consistent, what's to worry?

I misinterpreted HG2's armor rules for over 25 years but it didn't matter because I always misinterpreted them in the same way.

I don't know I it's a retcon but Narsil has 2 stars, a G6IV and a M0V.

IIRC, Narsil's star first show up in The Spinward Marches Campaign, just as most of the stars in the Marches do. Look up the size of a G6IV in LBB:6 Scouts and figure what it's 100D limit would be. It's quite an eye opener.

While I'd been using planetary 100D limits from the first, I didn't use stellar 100D limits until I got my hands on LBB:6 sometime in the mid-80s. IIRC, I bought Scouts a few months after buying SMC so I got the star data and their "sizes" at about the same time. Looking over the larger stars led me to look into their 100D limits. After that, I began looking at hab zones with the 100D limit in mind while also roping in stellar companions.

Mulling over 100D stellar limits, hab zones, and companions helped me "explain" Winston/Querion IMTU.

Since my last post I've purchased the Gurps bag of holding and read the Gurps Humaniti Darien article. It specifically splits the Darien TL16 Fleet into 2 squadrons one part facing the Zhodani and the other facing the Swordies, given the relative strength of the 2 empires I suspect the better armed ships are facing the Zho's.

It also says all spaceships came under the star mapping service, who approved the use of ships and their HQ was destroyed with all records in the Maghiz, a reasonable explanation for losing a couple of dozen ships (although why a backup was not kept somewhere else is a problem). They were also responsible for holding back Darien colonisation efforts. The ships apparently have a self repair facility.

I don't know how much input our Absent Friend Hans Rancke had with GT:H, but much of what you wrote jibes well with his personal views and materials concerning the Darrians. In order to "explain" much of the post-Maghiz events, Hans definitely scaled back the Darrians' pre-Maghiz interstellar capacity - too much so IMHO. In his version, the Darrians didn't have many ships after the Maghiz because they had so few ships before the Maghiz.

In our emails, I argued for a larger number, not by an order of magnitude mind you, just a few dozen more. I felt that, even before looking at the long range scouting and outpost needs, the colonization effort within the Darrian Group required more "lift" capacity than Hans believed necessary. I also felt that the Darrian's only Class A starport/yards were on/orbiting Darrian proper and it's loss, along with the associated personal, would account for the difficulties in maintaining an interstellar capacity after the Maghiz.

I miss Hans. I often wonder what happened to his slush pile.

 

[flykiller]

I misinterpreted HG2's armor rules for over 25 years

what was the mis-interpretation?

 

[Whipsnade]

what was the mis-interpretation?

I overlooked the "Armor level capped by TL" rule.

It's right there, last sentence in the armor section in the construction rules, but I somehow overlooked it for 25 years.

 

[McPerth]

There's a comma separating "the deadtree JTAS article" and S:3.

I was referring to both the Contact: Darrians article and the Spinward Marches supplement. There's nothing in Special Supplement:3 Missiles, or SS:3, about the Darrians.

Yes, I see it now. In any case, little is written in the JTAS article about the TL16 squadrons, and I guess it was written before AM8 and superceded by it.

I should have written things more clearly.

And I should have read it more carefully ...

I don't know how much input our Absent Friend Hans Rancke had with GT:H, but much of what you wrote jibes well with his personal views and materials concerning the Darrians. In order to "explain" much of the post-Maghiz events, Hans definitely scaled back the Darrians' pre-Maghiz interstellar capacity - too much so IMHO. In his version, the Darrians didn't have many ships after the Maghiz because they had so few ships before the Maghiz.

In our emails, I argued for a larger number, not by an order of magnitude mind you, just a few dozen more. I felt that, even before looking at the long range scouting and outpost needs, the colonization effort within the Darrian Group required more "lift" capacity than Hans believed necessary. I also felt that the Darrian's only Class A starport/yards were on/orbiting Darrian proper and it's loss, along with the associated personal, would account for the difficulties in maintaining an interstellar capacity after the Maghiz.

I miss Hans. I often wonder what happened to his slush pile.

I also miss him, and sure his imput in this thread would have been specially interesting.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Oh for Christ's sake...

...

Sure, whatever.

Correction: Presence ≠ Colonized.

When the Maghiz obliterated the Darrian homeworld in -925, the myriad Darrian colonies, outposts, settlements, and research stations were suddenly on their own.

There was an extensive presence in District 268. A research facility on Dawnworld continued to operate for several years until its operators finally died of old age. A Darrian mining colony in the Bowman Belt suffocated when resupply ships never arrived. Small outposts throughout the subsector died off when their expected relief ships failed to show up.

Were there presence in more than four systems? I guess so.
Were there many large scale settlements? I guess not.

 

[McPerth]

I'll quote S:9 again

(Note: in naval parlance, the term ship is reserved for jump-capable vessels, while non-jump capable vessels are referred to as boats, riders, or monitors).

This is the definitive version of Imperial ship/boat/rider/monitor nomenclature

There are five broad types of ship in service with the Imperial Navy: Scouts, Escorts, Cruisers, Carriers, and Battleships.

Note the lack of SDBs, riders or monitors in the list because they are not ships.

Excuse me to discuss this again, but when I saw whulorigan's post in another (unrelated) thread I coudn't refrain myself:

From T5.09 p. 269:

Naval Base. The Navy may maintain a port facility for the support and maintenance of its vessels. The base includes administrative sections, warehouses for provisions and resupply, and some security personnel.

The continuing interest of naval personnel in their service makes naval bases favorite stopovers for veterans (even of other navies).

Sometimes a specific naval base may be considerably more extensive than the typical installation. Their facilities and equipment come to dominate the starport rather than complement it.

Scout Base. The exploratory scout service may maintain a port facility for the support and maintenance of its vessels (including those vessels which it may have out on loan to detached duty scouts). It is possible that the world on which a scout base is located is not a member of the interstellar community which the scout service serves (for example, Imperial Scout bases may be located outside the Imperium).

Many scout bases make the information they have accumulated available outside of their service (including maps, charts, and world surveys).

From T5.09 p. 272:

THE SPECIAL CASES
There are two special cases for starports: the Depot and the Way Station.

The Depot. A depot is a world-dominating naval base capable of supporting extraordinary numbers of ships (primarily warships) and extraordinary levels of repairs. A depot is present on about one world in a thousand.

The Way Station. A way station is a larger-than-normal scout base dedicated to support of official interstellar courier activity. The Imperium’s xboat system carries communications between worlds on an expedited basis. The way station services and maintains the xboats. A way station is located on main xboat routes about one per 40-50 parsecs.

So, if keeping with Mike's definitions taken so strictly, non jump vessels (BRs, Monitors, SDBs and fighters) are not supported by Depots, as they only support ships, but only by bases (as there the all-englobing word vessel is used)...

It's either this or accepting that the word ships is sometimes used intercheangeably with vessel, regardless its jump capacity (or lack of it).

 

[mike wightman]

A depot is a world - dominating naval base.

Your first quote says a naval base supports vessels - ships, riders, SDBs, monitors, fighters, shuttles you name it.

Since a depot is a naval base...

 

[McPerth]

Sorry to bump this thread, but (again) I could not refrain myself after seeing those posts in another thread

I don't think so, technically:

The player with the most ships in his or her line of battle (all those counted must be capable of both fire and maneuver) is allowed a DM of +1.

But your example works if you use ten 400 Dt corvettes against six battleships.

Does that mean SDBs, monitors and battle riders have no effect on initiative since they are all boats not ships?

I actually agree that it should only be vessels over a certain size that count for initiative. But you may decide to change the size requirement depending on the engagement in question.

E.g. a small squadron vs squadron action involving a few 400t ships may include small craft in the initiative DM determination, while in a full on fleet vs fleet action it may be only CruRon and BatRon numbers that matter for initiative.

Does that mean SDBs, monitors and battle riders have no effect on initiative since they are all boats not ships?

They are ships, but not starships.

Definitions:

• A vessel is any interplanetary or interstellar vehicle.
• A ship is any vessel of 100 tons or more.
• A starship is a ship which has jump drives and can travel on interstellar voyages.
• A non-starship is a ship without jump drives.
• A small craft is any vessel under 100 tons; all small craft are incapable of jump.

.

I know, that's why I put the emoticon there and my agreement that smallcraft don't count.

There was quite a discussion about the definition of ship and warship a couple of years ago.

I'm not convinced that a thousand type S scout/couriers should always get the initiative benefit either...

this discussion came to my head.

So you keep defending that the fact the Darrian TL 16 is coposed by ships denies the possibility for them to be BRs?

 

[mike wightman]

Yes, because all of the evidence says they are starships. TNE and MgT both agree that the Darrian TL16 warships are jump capable, with MgT Darrians being the new primary 3I canonical source.

 

[McPerth]

Yes, because all of the evidence says they are starships. TNE and MgT both agree that the Darrian TL16 warships are jump capable, with MgT Darrians being the new primary 3I canonical source.

As you cite books I don't own, I must again trust your word (that, again, I have no reason not to).

Does any of them describe this TL 16 fleet?

 

[Condottiere]

I get the impressions they're Melniboneans.

Their advanced stuff can't be replicated, and if used up or damaged, no longer available.

So they have some form of joint venture with the Imperium, where they get technological level fifteen equipment and ships manufactured by Imperium docks and factories.

Their tactical approach appears to be hit and run.

 

[Whipsnade]

I get the impressions they're Melniboneans. Their advanced stuff can't be replicated, and if used up or damaged, no longer available.

Thanks to MegaTraveller and TNE we know what TL16 can do. There are no "superweapons", no breakthroughs like meson spinals appear. There isn't even a marked increase in the power or efficiency of existing systems as is seen earlier with power plants. The only new device is a "tractor beam" of sorts.

Because the tech cannot be replicated, that argues against the tech advantage being weapons of some sort. Over the centuries you'll run out of TL16 missiles and parts for "high stress" equipment like lasers, bays, and whatnot. The fact that some of the TL16 ships are merchants armed with lower TL weapons argues that too. Finally, the fact that the Darrians still lose wars argues against the advantage being weapons of some sort.

In order for it to last as long as it has, the TL16 advantage must be something "more "passive" like sensors and other electronics.

Their tactical approach appears to be hit and run.

The tactical advantage is one which involves sensors, detection, targeting, ECM/ECCM, and communications. A Darrian squadron which includes a TL16 ship can see further, target sooner, spoof better, and talk faster. TL16 gives the Darrians a C3I edge over the Sword Worlds which, if used correctly, can win battles.

 

[aramis]

There are TL16 major incrementalss:

• batteries jump from 7 KW·H/kg to 11 KW·H/kg (CT Bk 8 & MTRM)
• Beam & Pulse lasers gain +1 UCP
• Particle Accelerator Turrets shrink in size and increase in UCP rating (They do this also at TL15 and 18; the baseline is TL14) - At TL 16, they can be swapped out with Plasma/Fusion turrets.
• 50Td Meson Bays become available
• (100Td) Tractor Bays become available
• NAS becomes useful in space combat (range is Dist)
• Fusion plant weights halve and output rises 16% for a given volume.

Other, lesser Incremental changes

• EMS arrays reduce size
• Neutrino sensors reduce in size
• Densitometer penetrations hit 1 and 25 KM. At 25 km, most deep sites can be found. And at 1 km, the low pen can be used for damage assessment on just about any ship known.
• All comms reduce in size; 5000 km radio is small enough to wear as a headset: 300 cc, 300 g.
• Avionics improve 10 kph

TL 16 has many, many incrementals. The TL17 revolution is antimatter.

T5 Note: T5 gives Jump 7.
Without antimatter or collectors, you cannot get past J7 on internal fuel. And the TL16 Collector is only able to power J3. TL15 and 16 build Antimatter plants... big, heavy, dangerous ones.

 

[mike wightman]

I too have poured over MT+ info on TL16 and above systems.

If we adapt them to the HG'80 rules then the three most important advantages of the Darrian ships are:
model A computer - +1 to just about everything vs a TL15 ship,
even smaller power plants - agility 6, max armour (now #16) becomes easily attainable
factor A turret/bay weapon batteries can now damage heavily armoured ships since they don't suffer the +6DM on the damage table.

(note the 50t meson bay already exits at TL15 in both HG and MT )

 

[Whipsnade]

I too have poured over MT+ info on TL16 and above systems.

As have I. I wouldn't, for example, call dropping an EMS active array's weight, volume, and power requirements by a third and an EMS passive array's weight, volume, and power requirements by 20% "incremental".

If we adapt them to the HG'80 rules then the three most important advantages of the Darrian ships are:
model A computer - +1 to just about everything vs a TL15 ship,
even smaller power plants - agility 6, max armour (now #16) becomes easily attainable
factor A turret/bay weapon batteries can now damage heavily armoured ships since they don't suffer the +6DM on the damage table.

That's a good summation of the major differences. The computer advantage is huge, especially when we remember were dealing with a 2D6 roll, the power plant improvements help via "follow on" effects, and the weapon improvements do help because MT uses a version of HG2 for ship combat. However, all those advantages come with a serious proviso:

Some of the ships making up the TL16 fleet weren't originally built as warships.

Would a freighter or survey ship be built with a meson gun bay? Or as many turrets as it's displacement allows? Would a freighter or survey ship be designed for maximum gees, agility, and armor? Would a freighter, unlike a survey ship, carry the "largest" computer or the "best" sensors available?

I've have a lot of trouble with many of the stories in the Darrian AM and the story told about the TL16 ships is just one of them. While the idea that the TL16 ships lasted "untouched" in the Darrian out-system for several centuries, that they could be made operable after being found, and that they have been kept operable for several centuries since may not snap my belief suspenders, it sure as hell plucks on them pretty hard.

Dialing back the "super fighting ship" aspect of the AM's story not only sugar coats the pill canon wants me to swallow, but canon itself gives me a few nudges in the same direction. The story in the AM flatly states that some of the TL16 ships are merchantmen. They're not going to have the improved weapons TL16 provides and yet they somehow still help the Darrian navy win battles. The fact that Darrian has lost wars despite have these "super fighting ships" is another nudge and the information in TNE's RSB regarding the so called "Darrian" TL16 patrol cruiser is one more.

We're flatly told that the TL16 flotilla helps wins battles and we're flatly told that some of the ships in that flotilla aren't warships. Dialing back the TL16 combat role to one focused more on C3I than shooting helps explain not only how non-warships help win battles but also how millennia-old TL16 equipment is still operable.

That TL16 ship may very well have a 50dTon meson bay it uses to skewer Sword World cruisers, but it really makes an impact as a "force multiplier" thanks to it's C3I capabilities.

 

[Ulsyus]

Hang on, how long have the stories about Darrian superships been around? If it's been from the early days of settlement in the Spinward Marches, what TL were the Sword Worlds, 3I and Joes back then? I'm sure that at that point TL16 seemed dreamily amazing (or frighteningly formidable, depending on one's alignment to the Darrians). Maybe that's where the whole hype came from and it's simply persisted until the 1100s.

 

[Whipsnade]

Hang on, how long have the stories about Darrian superships been around?

Okay, bear with me.

Darrian first shows up in '79 in S:3. No mention of the world hosting a human minor race, the Maghiz, or anything else. The planet is a decaying world with a few high tech buildings it can longer maintain because the knowledge has been lost. It's said the planet depends on and strictly controls the export of art from it's past.

Darrian next shows up in '82 in JTAS #14. We get a proper old school write up like those already done for the Aslan, Hivers, and others. The human minor race angle appears as does their uplift by Terran "traders". The "Destroyed by stellar flares" story appears, it's just not called the Maghiz yet nor are it's effects like those later described. More importantly, the TL16 relic ships appear too. The few sentences written about them contain GDW's usual qualifiers and purposely vague facts. Darrian has "stations and facilities" in "poor repair" which "cannot be duplicated". The sentence about the ships is best quoted in full:

"Some TL 16 weapons systems and engineering systems have apparently been maintained on a few naval vessels."

Note the use of "some", "apparently", and "few".

Our next look at the Darrians comes in '87 with CT's final Alien Module. The various information in the earlier JTAS piece has been made Bigger!, Better!, and more Exciting! because canon bloats just like rules and skills do. The stellar flare becomes the bloated Maghiz which not only damages Darrian but creates a wave front which damages electronics on worlds as much as 8 parsecs away. The relic technology said the be apparently aboard a few naval vessels gets the same bloat treatment. AM:8's claims about the relic ships are interesting because they can be construed in a way which contradicts each other.

First we're told:

"The Darrian Navy maintains two or three squadrons of tech level 16 warships of pre-Maghiz manufacture. These ships (sic) 16 warships were recovered from a stockpile of ships in the outer Darrian system in 390; they have been in service since."

Note how a "few" warships with "some" weapons and systems "apparently maintained" have been bloated to become 16 operational warships.

Then we're told other things like:

"... the Darrian Navy is built around a core of tech level 16 warships." and "Probably fewer than two dozen Darrian tech level 16 starships survive today." and "The force is divided into two squadrons..." and "... a small percentage of surviving Darrian tech level 16 starships were not originally of military design. At four are reported to be merchant ships to which tech level 14 weaponry has been added."

So, the squadrons change, the numbers change and even whether some of them are warships or not changes too. Adding to the fun is the fact that AM:8 claims the Darrian Navy has only 20 ships permanently assigned to it with another 20 that can be called up from planetary navies in time of war.

Maybe that's where the whole hype came from and it's simply persisted until the 1100s.

Traveller has always been about wheels within wheels, the Aslan/TNS Pathfinder story is the best example of that. Canon is always playing sleight of hand with us, showing us time and time again that we need to look beneath labels while thinking about the differences between what we've been told and what we've been shown.

The fact that those TL 16 give the Darrians isn't the questioned. Just how they provide that advantage is the question.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

factor A turret/bay weapon batteries can now damage heavily armoured ships since they don't suffer the +6DM on the damage table.

That was changed in MT to only allow spinals to avoid that. If we transplant MT factor-A weapons to CT we should also let this crucial rule change follow them, otherwise factor-A nukes are way too good.

[*]batteries jump from 7 KW·H/kg to 11 KW·H/kg (CT Bk 8 & MTRM)

Please, not Kelvin-Watt-Henry per kilogram [KWH/kg], it's kWh/kg.

 

[mike wightman]

That was changed in MT to only allow spinals to avoid that. If we transplant MT factor-A weapons to CT we should also let this crucial rule change follow them, otherwise factor-A nukes are way too good.

I know all about the MT rules and their changes. By sticking with the factor A avoids the +6 we upgun - if we adapt HG80 to the MT rule then turret and bay weapons remain inconsequential. IMHO factor A missiles should probably be thought of as AM warheads and TL16 lasers are grasers - hence the step up in combat performance.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I wouldn't, for example, call dropping an EMS active array's weight, volume, and power requirements by a third and an EMS passive array's weight, volume, and power requirements by 20% "incremental".

I agree it's not incremental: When the actual size changes from ~0.004 Dt to ~0.003 Dt (AEMS), with the exact same performance, it's of course utterly trivial for any spacecraft.


The bigger computers are incremental and devastatingly important to space combat.