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Everything I know about Jump I learned from MWM

You'd have to jump in a way that doesn't intersect the 100D sphere, and doing so would add at least two weeks to your travel time as you jump away and back again (which will add a lot of extra costs in terms of pay and maintenance), and also need the extra fuel sources. Essentially an entire hemisphere of the sky (as seen from the destination world) is offlimits to jump.

Alternatively you could take a route to the star from your departure system that does let you come out at the right side of the 100D sphere in the first place, but again that adds extra travel time as you travel to extra systems along the way.
 
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No, it just makes them not trading with the outside world nearly as much. Hence a good subsetting, even for HT (TL9-15) races with sublight drives only.

Someone moved in, set up shop, and still is there... sure, they don't mind outsiders, but the pace of travel in system means no regular exterior trade... even tho they might have a thriving in-system economy!

A great system to drop a hidden ancient base in - they didn't jump in.

Etc.

I agree that this story telling aspect is an excellent reason to bend the rules around.
 
No, it just makes them not trading with the outside world nearly as much. Hence a good subsetting, even for HT (TL9-15) races with sublight drives only.

Someone moved in, set up shop, and still is there... sure, they don't mind outsiders, but the pace of travel in system means no regular exterior trade... even tho they might have a thriving in-system economy!

A great system to drop a hidden ancient base in - they didn't jump in.

Antares is a subsector capital, with a population of tens of billions. It's not some out of the way backwater, and I really doubt that "doesn't trade much with the outside world". Even if the planet is somehow in Antares' habitable zone, that would be at a distance of about 250 AU from the star (let's leave aside the fact that Antares is too young to have planets and that none will form at that distance anyway, and it's incredibly unlikely to have captured a planet in exactly the right orbit), well within its 1000 AU 100D limit.

At the very least (if they're on the same side of the 100D sphere as the mainworld), ships would have to travel a minimum of 750 AU under sublight power to get to the planet from the star's 100D limit, which is an 11 billion kilometer journey which I think would take around 2 years at 1G acceleration. Even at 6g it'd take about 316 days (if my calculations are correct. I'm using a formula from Megatraveller's Referees Companion for this). EDIT: These numbers are incorrect, see my post below.

The obvious conclusion is that Antares simply cannot work as described. Since the mainworld is pretty much inaccessible at all times, it's a terrible place to have a sector capital and trade is pretty much impossible. And also, the star could go supernova at any time. If the mainworld orbited a distant companion star at a distance of a few thousand AU from Antares (outside Antares' 100D limit) then that would solve many of these issues, but Antares' 100D limit may still be an obstacle to traffic coming in from a specific direction.
 
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At the very least (if they're on the same side of the 100D sphere as the mainworld), ships would have to travel a minimum of 750 AU under sublight power to get to the planet from the star's 100D limit, which is an 11 billion kilometer journey which I think would take around 2 years at 1G acceleration. Even at 6g it'd take about 316 days (if my calculations are correct. I'm using a formula from Megatraveller's Referees Companion for this).

my gut tells me you are well off in your calculations. I'm a little busy RN but I'll crunch some numbers later and let you know.

R
 
Antares is a subsector capital, with a population of tens of billions.
Cause and effect is important, though.. Presumably Antares doesn't have population of tens of billions because it is the sector capital, it is the sector capital because it has a population of tens of billions and a fairly high tech level. In other words, because of its economic and military power which translates into political power.

It's not some out of the way backwater, and I really doubt that "doesn't trade much with the outside world".
No, it should have considerable trade, but less than it would have if it wasn't so deep into the star's jump shadow. Realspace traffic isn't as costly as jump traffic, but the added cost effectively put it at the equivalent of several extra jumps distance from its trading partners. Starships would jump in, dock at a space station, offload and load, and jump out again. Their cargo would be transferred to in-system shuttles and ferried to the world.

If I was the Duke of Antares, I'd have the sector (and subsector) administration located on a space station outside the jump limit. The planet would be a backwater of a sort, with no one visiting unless they absolutely had to.

Even if the planet is somehow in Antares' habitable zone, that would be at a distance of about 250 AU from the star (let's leave aside the fact that Antares is too young to have planets and that none will form at that distance anyway, and it's incredibly unlikely to have captured a planet in exactly the right orbit), well within its 1000 AU 100D limit.
Your figures are a little off. Jump limit is at 651 AU and the world Antares orbits at 213 AU (assuming the figures quoted on the Traveller wiki are correct, which I can't say for sure, since no source is quoted).

But you're right that a position deep inside a jump limit is a problem for a world. However, that has nothing to do with jump masking. That's a problem with jump shadowing, and everyone agrees that MM's essay firmly establishes the existence of jump shadowing.

At the very least (if they're on the same side of the 100D sphere as the mainworld), ships would have to travel a minimum of 750 AU under sublight power to get to the planet from the star's 100D limit, which is an 11 billion kilometer journey which I think would take around 2 years at 1G acceleration. Even at 6g it'd take about 316 days (if my calculations are correct. I'm using a formula from Megatraveller's Referees Companion for this).
Wiki article says 87 days a 1G, 35 days at 6G. It also says that Antares is the largest star in Charted Space, so no other world would have quite that severe a problem.

The obvious conclusion is that Antares simply cannot work as described.
What description would that be?

Since the mainworld is pretty much inaccessible at all times, it's a terrible place to have a sector capital and trade is pretty much impossible. And also, the star could go supernova at any time. If the mainworld orbited a distant companion star at a distance of a few thousand AU from Antares (outside Antares' 100D limit) then that would solve many of these issues, but Antares' 100D limit may still be an obstacle to traffic coming in from a specific direction.
I repeat, if you can reach the near side of Antares' jump limit in one jump, you can reach the far side in two jumps. What happens next may justify your claim that the description of Antares (which I don't know in detail; the Wiki article is woefully short) is flawed, but that has nothing to do with the existence of jump masking.


Hans
 
OK, let's do it properly then.

use the equations of motion for constant acceleration/deceleration: s = ut + (1/2).at²

we can get travel time from this by assuming starting velocity (u) = 0 and rearranging to make time (t) the subject:

t = SQRT(2s/a)

This give travel time in seconds, if distance (s) is in meters and a is in meters/second².

Assume that the ship accelerates from rest at a rate of 1G, over a distance of 375 AU (half of 750 AU), turns around instantaneously, and then decelerates to a velocity of 0 at 1G over another 375 AU. (not really accurate, but that seems to be how travel time is calculated in traveller). Add these together (or calculate the half-trip to 375 AU once, and multiply by 2) to get the total travel time.

375 AU = 56.1 billion kilometers, or 5.61e13 meters.
1G = approximately 10 m/s²

SQRT(2s/a) = 3.35 million seconds, or 38.76 days. That's to reach the halfway point, so the total travel time at 1G to travel a distance of 750 AU is about 77.5 days. Certainly not as bad as my initial estimate (I guess the formula in MT was wrong or I entered the numbers incorrectly), but still quite a long time.

For 6G, it'll take 15.82 days to reach the turnaround, so the total travel time is about 31.6 days.

So, with the correct calculations, you're still looking at between 1 and 2.5 months of sublight travel time to travel the 750 AU to reach the mainworld. And it'll most likely be longer if the planet's not directly between the jump exit point and the star.
 
ok, wikipedia says that Antares radius is actually more like 3.82 AU (822 +/- 80 solar radii), so it's 100D would be around 765 AU (690 - 840 AU). So modify my calculations accordingly.

So the planet would be around 250 au, which means a minimum distance of 515 AU to the jump limit. So that's 3.85e13 meters to the turnaround point, which is a total travel time of 64 days at 1G, or 26 days at 6G. Still a long time.
 
What description would that be?

What I could find about it in the Traveller Wiki.

I repeat, if you can reach the near side of Antares' jump limit in one jump, you can reach the far side in two jumps.

Great. So you spend two weeks more in jump space to get to the far side, and then you spend 1-3 months travelling sublight to get to the planet from there. Remember, the closest you can arrive out from jump to the planet is 515 AU - the 100D limit is at 765 AU, and the planet is at 250 AU. You have to travel that 515 AU by sublight.

I guess one solution would be to have a huge amount of space stations at the jump exit point to greet travellers and allow trade without them having to spend a few months travelling to the planet, and then having a gigantic fleet of regular megafreighters ship all the food and other imports to the planet on a daily basis (as well as all the exports from the planet)?
 
Since the mainworld is pretty much inaccessible at all times, it's a terrible place to have a sector capital...

I dunno, sounds pretty much ideal to me. Any attacking fleet has to deal with at least a month long burn in to harrass the world. There's no sneaking up on or sudden surprise attack option. Seems a very secure place to put valued assets and well worth the minor inconvenience of maneuver drive restricted trade. It's a natural defense that can't be beaten and probably the primary reason the world became the capital.
 
Great. So you spend two weeks more in jump space to get to the far side, and then you spend 1-3 months travelling sublight to get to the planet from there.
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"But you're right that a position deep inside a jump limit is a problem for a world. However, that has nothing to do with jump masking. That's a problem with jump shadowing..." [Me]

I guess one solution would be to have a huge amount of space stations at the jump exit point to greet travellers and allow trade without them having to spend a few months travelling to the planet, and then having a gigantic fleet of regular megafreighters ship all the food and other imports to the planet on a daily basis (as well as all the exports from the planet)?
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"[Antares] should have considerable trade, but less than it would have if it wasn't so deep into the star's jump shadow." [me]​

I will add that I don't believe that any high-tech, high-population world imports a significant amount of bulk foodstuff (And by 'significant' I mean enough to make a difference to the life or death of any inhabitants). Antares may import large amounts of luxury food, but only if the demand is enough to justify the transportation costs.


Hans
 
I dunno, sounds pretty much ideal to me. Any attacking fleet has to deal with at least a month long burn in to harrass the world. There's no sneaking up on or sudden surprise attack option. Seems a very secure place to put valued assets and well worth the minor inconvenience of maneuver drive restricted trade. It's a natural defense that can't be beaten and probably the primary reason the world became the capital.

Excellent idea. Sounds to me like Venice -which is awkwardly placed, hard to get to and a major, major player for most of its history.

Just out of additional curiosity, is there any OTU history to the planet before it became the capital ? I could see it as one of the fortunate worlds that didn't suffer much from the long night because of its unique location, and it just kept going and growing until recontacted. Possibly too, it was more self sufficient already because of the jump limit issues.
 
Second thought.....

I looked at the Wiki entry for the mainworld, and the 213AU figure for the planet seems entirely predicated on it being in the habitable zone. Why is this ? Given that it can't even have evolved local life in seven million years, why is this assumption necessary ? The local temp is a trivial issue on what probably is a preoxigenated atmosphere world, if it has an atmosphere at all (being a captured wanderer) . It may as well be much further out since even if it is in the perfect zone for life, it won't have any, and the population will need to be in habitats regardless.

Third thought: Wait -is there a canonical UPP for the mainworld ? EDIT: yes, it does, and it has a type 6 ATM. Damn. So, it cant be so far out as to freeze the O2 -how far does that allow ?

I also found this.



Antares is the sector capital of Antares Sector.
Antares is a cold world with Daytime temperatures only reaching -90 degrees C.



Does this move it out significantly ?
 
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Second thought.....

I looked at the Wiki entry for the mainworld, and the 213AU figure for the planet seems entirely predicated on it being in the habitable zone. Why is this ?

The original world gen presumed the mainworld of a system to be the most habitable and by default in the habitable zone of the star. Not much thought was given to the type of star until later expanded system generation rules, and in that no attention was given to just what the stellar life cycles would mean for planetary evolution.

The choices are change the star to make the world believable, or change the world to make the star workable.

Native life would not be a requirement and its a bit of a conceit to rule out a 7 million evolutionary cycle imo. We only have one example to work on and alien life under alien stars will in all likelihood be alien. Some degree of alien evolution in 7 million years? Why not?
 
I dunno, sounds pretty much ideal to me. Any attacking fleet has to deal with at least a month long burn in to harrass the world. There's no sneaking up on or sudden surprise attack option. Seems a very secure place to put valued assets and well worth the minor inconvenience of maneuver drive restricted trade. It's a natural defense that can't be beaten and probably the primary reason the world became the capital.

Yes, and this is precisely why all the highly populated capital cities on Earth are located in inaccessible areas that make it very difficult for anyone to get there or leave.

Oh wait, they're not. :eek:o:
 
Native life would not be a requirement and its a bit of a conceit to rule out a 7 million evolutionary cycle imo. We only have one example to work on and alien life under alien stars will in all likelihood be alien. Some degree of alien evolution in 7 million years? Why not?

Rocky planets can't even finish forming by 7 million years, and you want life to evolve on them at the same time?
 
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Yes, and this is precisely why all the highly populated capital cities on Earth are located in inaccessible areas that make it very difficult for anyone to get there or leave.

Oh wait, they're not. :eek:o:

That doesn't even bear replying to. Except to state the obvious for those who might miss it.

Rocky planets can't even finish forming by 7 million years, and you want life to evolve on them at the same time?

ST ep 25 "The Devil in the Dark" and any number of other "It's life Jim, but not as we know it"-isms from uncountable sci-fi works. And again our knowledge is far from complete and based solely on a limited set of data. If you want to imagine we know everything there is to know now and still complain about how backwards Traveller looks after 30 years... :rolleyes:
 
Personally, I prefer my sci-fi to be based on science, not fantasy.

When Traveller was first released over 30 years ago we knew hardly anything at all about other planets in our own solar system, let alone anywhere else. Now our knowledge is much more advanced, so yes, I think we do know a lot more about how stars and planets now than we did back then, and I don't believe we have a "limited set of data" to work from at all anymore. For example, we know how long it takes for planets to form, we've even seen them forming around other stars! There is a wealth of information online about this for anyone who cares to look for it.
 
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ST ep 25 "The Devil in the Dark" and any number of other "It's life Jim, but not as we know it"-isms from uncountable sci-fi works. And again our knowledge is far from complete and based solely on a limited set of data. If you want to imagine we know everything there is to know now and still complain about how backwards Traveller looks after 30 years... :rolleyes:
I have to agree with fusor here. First Antares has to capture a rogue world and then someone has to terraform it. Much as I try to use the Ancients as little as possible, I think they're needed here.

Or possibly the capture could be a natural (albeit low-probability) event and the Vilani could have done the terraforming. Or a mysterious, otherwise unknown civilization. If the blackbody radiation really is -90 degrees Celcius, then the Ancients probably didn't put the world in that orbit -- they'd have put it a bit closer to the star, close enough to give it Droyne-compatible temperature.


Hans
 
Yes, and this is precisely why all the highly populated capital cities on Earth are located in inaccessible areas that make it very difficult for anyone to get there or leave.

Oh wait, they're not. :eek:o:

Geeze , lighten up. Have you ever typed the words,"that's a good point" ? Or possibly, "I really don't know " ? It's very liberating to not always be right.

I suggest you go read more about Venice, and come up with some details on how it doesn't meet the critirea suggested. We'll be here.....

That said, when you provide that info, I can address your point with one excellent modern counter-example, Brasillia. Look it up. Then I'll follow with an observation: easy access is not an absolute. Anyone who thinks it is as easy to get to Moscow in war as it is in peace is doomed to be dead in a snowbank.

So. Spica is one example , and we see from the above that even modern earth has one. Can we proceed having met the criterea of "must be explainable in terms of unimaginative modern world examples if it is to be accepted" argument ?
 
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