"Fewer Ranks?" - article from 2018
- Thread starter aramis
- Start date
Flying Sergeants in the USMC and USN ended just before WW II. All USMC and USN pilots in the era were combat pilots, and diplomatic restrictions caused the US to restrict combat to requiring an officer on the scene...
USAAC ended sergeant pilots mid-war, but those pilots were ferrying planes, not combat pilots nor transport pilots.
USAAC air crews, per LtCol Theo. Hellar, USAF, occasionally had a former Sgt-Pilot as a flight crew Flight Officer for either copilot or navigator/bombadier.
Ted, along with Polish Air Force Lieutenant Ed Powlacuk (sp?), were friends of mine... Ed joined the PAF when the USAAC rejected him, and was shipped to England for training. He started as a Sergeant, and was promoted to Mladshy Leytenant during the war. Both have passed on. I wish I'd recorded our discussions. Both Ted and Ed confirmed seeing both no-crossbar and crossbar versions of the flight officer bar during the war, and Ed saw some US airmen wearing the "oval-plus"... two ovals, no center-bar, at 90 degrees.
US Warrant officer bars in the WW2 to Korea era... Note that certain periods, a navy bar identical to the Marine one except for the color being blue was used on certain uniforms (Working Blues) as they lacked epaulettes and cuff stripes for those uniforms; they wore gold (WO) or Silver (CWO) specialty marks both collars at other periods.
| Rank | Army | Army Air Corps | Navy (Bosun shown) | Marine Corps |
| Warrant Officer or Flight Officer |
| 
| 
| 
|
| Chief Warrant Officer | 
| None Authorized | 
| 
|
| Old Army (Korea-Vietnam) | Current Army | |
| Warrant Officer WO1 | 
| 
|
| Chief Warrant Officer CWO2 | 
| 
|
| Chief Warrant Officer CWO 3 | 
| 
|
| Chief Warrant Officer CWO 4 | 
| 
|
| Master Warrant Officer CWO4 Chief Warrant Officer CWO5 (early) | 
| |
| Chief Warrant Officer CWO5 | 
|
USAF is authorized a lighter blue, but opted out of using warrant officers; the last USAF warrants retired in the 1990's, from reserve components.
The US CIvil Air Patrol also has warrant officer grades, but is a volunteer program. If you see a USAF uniform, with a black bar with 1 to 3 thin stripes lengthwise, their rank title is "Flight Officer" - CAP Cadets with a gold disk are cadet flight officers.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
In the MongoVerse, if your initial enlistment is either in the Scouts or Navy, you automatically get a pilot/zero skill, which sort of nullifies the officer, commissioned, non, or warrant, requirement.
Scouts, at least those that are fielded, have a notoriously flat hierarchy.
The implication being, the skill to operate a spacecraft, is rather common.
Specialization pops in at pilot/one, being three types based on tonnage.
As I was rejigging the Confederation Navy ranks, I thought it would be at this point you introduce Flight Officer, warrant.
Scouts, at least those that are fielded, have a notoriously flat hierarchy.
The implication being, the skill to operate a spacecraft, is rather common.
Specialization pops in at pilot/one, being three types based on tonnage.
As I was rejigging the Confederation Navy ranks, I thought it would be at this point you introduce Flight Officer, warrant.
Without evidence to the contrary, we can assume the organizations will be based upon factors of 2, 3, 4, and 5...
Striker Bk 2 p 39 is the best canonical evidence I've seen.
The smallest tactical unit, the fireteam, is 4 individuals in Striker. Vargr, Aslan, Droyne, K'Kree, and Hivers are not noted as having significantly different unit sizes.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
I think it's a natural evolution based on assigned tasks, the team being about the optimal size that a rather junior leader can control.
As I recall, six being the minimum size that tasks given to squads can be accomplished, so that's why a lot are eight men, and twelve allows considerable attrition.
I don't know about Droyne, being rather uninterested, but I tend to associate them with Halderman's Forever War clones, who preferred binary.
Aslan, somewhere between American Indian war party and Samurai entourage.
Vargr probably varies across the board, but pack tactics and organization would be default, so rather fluid at around platoon size, with variable sized teams rather than squads.
As I recall, six being the minimum size that tasks given to squads can be accomplished, so that's why a lot are eight men, and twelve allows considerable attrition.
I don't know about Droyne, being rather uninterested, but I tend to associate them with Halderman's Forever War clones, who preferred binary.
Aslan, somewhere between American Indian war party and Samurai entourage.
Vargr probably varies across the board, but pack tactics and organization would be default, so rather fluid at around platoon size, with variable sized teams rather than squads.
Span of Control (wikipedia)
Teams requiring active monitoring and supervision max out at about 6 per supervisor*. Thus, 4-man fire teams, and an 8-man squad where the leader of one fire team supervises both his own team and the leader of the other fire team (for 5 reports for the squad leader and 3 for the secondary team leader).
------
*flatter hierarchies and/or technological management tools can expand this, as can subordinates with near-identical taskings (so management is exception-handling rather than directive in nature). These cases don't really apply to combat...
As it happens I have been figuring out an enlisted component to LBB1 plus S4 characters. The idea is that if a character misses their commission roll they can still roll for promotion and just get the next enlisted rank.
Before this conversation I already had warrant officers as the highest enlisted rank for most of the armed services.
Some interesting looks when one develops enlisted ranking for all the hierarchical careers, particularly bureaucrats and nobles.
Before this conversation I already had warrant officers as the highest enlisted rank for most of the armed services.
Some interesting looks when one develops enlisted ranking for all the hierarchical careers, particularly bureaucrats and nobles.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
If memory serves right, there was a lot of handwringing when the size of the transporter restricted the size of the squad.
The last time I remember when you had fifty men platoons was the Wehrmacht in nineteen thirty nine, and that wartime experience, expediency and reequipping with automatic weapons shrunk that by a third, without diminishing the platoon's effectiveness.
Couple of steps up, the infantry division also shrunk from nine to six battalions; why this worked for the Germans was a better quality of leadership, at least tactically.
There are nuances between Italian and German six battalion divisions, but it does set the minimum size of effective formations seems to be six.
The last time I remember when you had fifty men platoons was the Wehrmacht in nineteen thirty nine, and that wartime experience, expediency and reequipping with automatic weapons shrunk that by a third, without diminishing the platoon's effectiveness.
Couple of steps up, the infantry division also shrunk from nine to six battalions; why this worked for the Germans was a better quality of leadership, at least tactically.
There are nuances between Italian and German six battalion divisions, but it does set the minimum size of effective formations seems to be six.
Up until about 1880, the US and UK both operated on a "Regimental Enrollment" approach, and had very similar sub-regimental structures...
It wasn't until the 20th C tha command control spans actually were reflected in structure.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Regimental companies seemed to number around the same number of men as Roman centuries, usually commanded by officers with some combat experience and seniority, and if there are enough of them, reorganized as field battalions.
As far as I can tell Napoleonic French regiments were more internally consistent, with one depot battalion, four fielded ones with six companies each.
Battalions (and cohorts with six centuries) might be sized to just large enough to allow one commander to effectively control them.
As far as I can tell Napoleonic French regiments were more internally consistent, with one depot battalion, four fielded ones with six companies each.
Battalions (and cohorts with six centuries) might be sized to just large enough to allow one commander to effectively control them.
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
Not quite correct.
In Dec 1942*, the USMC had 54 "Naval Aviation Pilots" - the designation in the USN & USMC for an enlisted pilot (their pilot wings were silver colored) - officer pilots were "Naval Aviators" (with "wings of gold"). During 1942 the USMC total of NAPs more than doubled... but during this year many NAPs began being promoted to Warrant Officer... and by May 1943 most were commissioned as full officers.
Not all were, however...
During World War II, at least 2,200 NAPs earned their wings (according to Bluejackets.com). By 1948 when Congress discontinued the training program for enlisted naval aviation pilots, nearly 3,800 enlisted sailors had completed the training program since it was established. Though there would be no new NAPs following April 2, 1948, those existing in the rating who continued to serve on active duty, also maintained their rating and flight status in dwindling numbers. On January 31, 1981, the last Navy enlisted pilot, ACCM^ Robert Jones (who had been designated in 1947) retired, closing the book on the NAP rating and insignia.**
* http://navylog.navymemorial.org/walsh-kenneth
** https://veteranscollection.org/2018/05/03/enlisted-aviators-naval-aviation-pilots-and-insignia/
^ Air Controlman Master Chief Petty Officer
Something around half of all US regiments at the start of the USCW had colonels with no combat experience. This can be blamed upon several factors...
1) most of the regiments were not US Army, but state militias.
2) most states didn't fund their militia regiments' gear - the senior cadre were expected to do so.
2a) when a person offered to pay to stand up a regiment, they often were rewarded with command of same, either personally, or by delegation.
2b) if the person raising the regiment knew they were war-bound, they'd delegate in a form of patronage. Not always to experienced men.
2c) Subalterns and captains were often voted upon, rather than based upon skill or training
3) there was effectively no standard of training for militia officers. (There were standards, but they were not enforced)
4) regiments were raised, trained, and deployed as regiments, not as part of a larger body - The US Army existed as a handful of generals and a couple dozen regiments, each regiment responsible for its own recruiting, training, and appointment of cadre below the Colonels.
5) Commissions were issued by Congress or the state. (at least 3 states still issue military commissions - New Mexico, Virginia, and Texas. VMI and NMMI graduates receive a state commission; NMMI graduates not meeting the reserve commission requirements are maintained on the state's commission until they complete the educational requirements for a federal reserve commission. VMI grads usually meet the federal standards.)
5a) the requirements for a commission were pretty low
That's it. That's ALL of article IV.US Army 1861 regulations said:
Article VI covers transfers... only officers get transfers, and only when both the sending and receiving colonels agree, and then, only after approval of the War Department...
The 1861 regulations do make a staff vs line distinction. Article II
ibid. said:
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
To be fair, British regiments had about similar origins, with patronage and/or money buying commissions within the regiment.
Though as I understand it, the United States Army switched to a more continental system for recruitment and deployment.
I don't know how the military organized itself for the Mexican American War, but I'll speculate part of the reason for what happens for the War Between the States, is that the North had mass mobilization, while the Southern aristocracy had a tradition of military service.
Though as I understand it, the United States Army switched to a more continental system for recruitment and deployment.
I don't know how the military organized itself for the Mexican American War, but I'll speculate part of the reason for what happens for the War Between the States, is that the North had mass mobilization, while the Southern aristocracy had a tradition of military service.
Mostly it was state units for the Mexican War.
Note, in the USN flight officers are not in direct line of command, they are limited duty officers akin to Doctors, Lawyers and other specialists. While they can direct ratings within their speciality they are hard pressed to give orders those who are not. Note I was on staff for a cruise or two, I answered to the Task Force commander and not the various ship's we were embarked on. The few times it came up where usually some Booter Brown bar who hadn't figured out who my boss was, generally a flight officer.
RogerD
SOC-12
Thanks for the correction. Not sure where I picked up that misconception.
That, unlike other USN LDO's, they wear the star.
Noting also that the USN assumes all warrants are LDOs. Despite Bosuns/Boatswains being actually assigned standing command of certain boats, and Engineering CWOs and LDOs being in the line of command on some smaller ships.
As a former Coxswain (Then a flavor of Boatswains Mate) often I was technically in command of my boat at times... Meaning my squadron if I was assigned to one was under the command of a junior officer who may or may not be aboard. And it wasn't uncommon for smaller auxiliaries such as Tugs to have a WO Bosun as the OIC. But all of that is murky "Old" Navy stuff meaning while the Bosun is considered a Officer for line consideration, I as Coxswain authority ended at the gunnels of my boat with command responsibility deferring to the officer I answered to.
Also consider that Boatswain Mates are the Deck generalists as such often will be in charge of detachments of assorted ratings as either the Petty Officer in charge or Leading Seaman.
I thought that might be the case...
It's so old, that at one point, Bosuns (and all other masters) were in fact migrated to commissioned officers... both USN and RN. THen, later, the USN revived the title as a WO again...
Well, yes I was in the Navy a scant 30 years ago now....
