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Fighters in YTU

Originally posted by Arthur Denger:
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It really has absolutely nothing to do with the aircraft-atmosphere analog, nor with sensors and turret weapon response times.
Actually that has everything to do with it.

The problem is simple ballistics. I need to throw my rock at the appropriate vector to hit your rock.

If your ship is accelerating to mid-point, flipping, and decelerating on a nice clean constant vector, then your rocks future position is easy to predict, making it much easier for my rock to hit it.

If you've ever done any rifle or pistol shooting, particularly at a moving target, you've experienced this directly. Even shooting at a static target requires compensation for bullet drop, and smart shooters know through either experiment or actual charts the ballistic performance of their ammunition to properly aim the firearm.

Maneuverability and agility are all focused on NOT being a nice, clean, smooth plotted vector in order to make it more difficulty for my rock to hit your rock.

Air frames in atmosphere give flying objects the ability to convert their velocity into lateral manuevers. Witness a simple wing-over for a fighter plane. The faster they're going, the faster the maneuver is made. The more structurally sound the aircraft is also affects how fast the transition can be made. The forces involved will tear apart a weaker craft versus a stronger craft.

So, a stronger craft can turn faster than a weaker craft, and by being able to turn faster, it can "get out of the way" faster, and be more unpredictable, thus being harder to hit -- more agile.

Put a typical fighter plane behind another, and the attacking pilot tries to predict where the other pilot's plane will be, and then fires his guns or cannon to fill that particular piece of space with lead debris, ideally impacting on the target and damaging it.

With a fast and maneverable plane, the target is jinking, and diving, and turning and climbing and anything to stay out of the way of the attacking aircraft. While the other craft is trying to play catch up with the unpredictable target, the attacking pilot may or may not be firing.

Now, if you change the weapon on the aircraft from a ballistic platform like a gun or cannon to a laser or particle accelerator -- i.e. a light speed platform, the game is completely different.

At any reasonable visual contact or "dogfighting" range, there is no ballistic problem. The weapon fires so fast, the target simply doesn't move in relation to the energy of the weapon.

At a range of 200 miles, light takes 1/1000 of a second to travel. At 600 mph, a plane will move roughly 10 inches in that time. That plane simply can not get out of the way of the laser, no matter how fast it turns, climbs, dives, or anything else. Laser gets targeted at center of mass, and that plane is hit. In all practical matters, there is no ballistic problem with light speed weapons at such short ranges.

But in space, where the ranges are measured in light-seconds, and target velocities are measured in km/sec, then every second DOES count. Laser weapons now become ballistic weapons, just like normal guns. You need to "lead" the target with your lasers (or PAW) in order to score a hit. The more you have to lead the target, then the more chance that the target can potentially do something to its vector to "get out of the way".

That target lead is also affected by the detection time. In terrestrial situations with guns, the speed of light far out speeds the speed of the gun, so as a shooter you do not need to compensate for when you actually "see" the target as part of your ballistic calculation, it's just noise in the final result.

But when your light speed weapon is the same speed as your sensor, and you're dealing with long ranges. then all of that goes in to your ballistic calculation.

If the target is 300,000km away (1 light second), then by the time the sensor records the targeting data, the target has already moved. 1G hour of acceleration is 36000m/sec, that means that in the time it took for the firing vessel to even SEE the target, it's already moved 36,000 meters, and if it could fire "instantaneously", it would move another 36,000 meters by the time the laser reached the target.

So, the firing ship would need to "lead" the target by 72,000m to ensure a hit with its laser. But the key here is that those two seconds provide the target time to "do something" in order to NOT be 72,000 meters down its vector.

This is why sensor response time, and weapon tracking times are quite important. The longer it takes to get the image of the target from the sensor to a firing solution and a laser burst down range, the more time the target has to evade.

Mind, none of this has to do with actual game mechanics, this is just physics sticking its nose under the tent.

Anything that takes longer than the response time of the firing ships combined sensors and weapons to change vector, is going to get hit. Whether it's to flip the ship over to decelerate, or deploy an X-Ray laser warhead, if the vector of the target stays stable long enough to let a sensor locate, plot a solution, and decide to fire, it's going to get hit. And with light speed weapons, those response time are incredibly fast, particularly once the computers and sensors have "locked on" and the mounts start tracking the target.

In a second, a jet fighter can change its position dramatically if it is going fast. But in space, a ship doesn't get any value from its velocity in being able to change direction. If a fighter wants to flip over, it needs to fire a jet to start the manuever and then fire a jet to stop it.

How easy do you think it would be make a, say, 10 meter long space fighter to fire a jet, accelerate to 90 degrees, and then fire a jet to decelerate at 180 degrees, and then fire its main drive to change its vector. At 10 hex range, 300,000 kms, it would have to perform that maneuver within 3 seconds to avoid getting hit by a tracking attacker, IMHO. In one sense, that's a long time, but it another, it's no time at all.

Of course, at 5 hex range, it would have to do it in 2 seconds. (1/2 the travel time, but the same computing time).

Now imagine a larger ship trying the same manuever.

So, yes, all of those factors are quite important to the targeting equation of space combat with light speed weapons. Also realize that for most of these operations, the man is out of the loop. If someone presses the "fire" button on a laser turret, that to me means "hey computer, fire as soon when you get a stable solution on the target", which may be anything from 1-10 seconds from pressing the fire button. But once the decision is made, the machines do all of the work.

Happy hunting.
 
Depending on how you structure the math for armor behavior and weapon ranges, fighters are plausibly quite effective. I'm not sure how useful a system it is, but I did a workup of Traveller space combat that tried to take into account things like light-speed delays, and, well, I had to work to tweak the system to make fighters not kill everything.

See http://www.geocities.com/ac_jackson/traveller/BV/ for anyone who's interested in hacking through the math. I used High Guard ship design because it's easy and a lowest common denominator, but it could be adjusted for any ship design sequence.
 
Epicenter, I like the Anti-damper idea. I hadn't thought of it before, but now I have
I'm thinking dampers are supposed to work by focusing 'nodes' or 'anti-nodes' on a warhead. So aren't dampers automatically anti-dampers?
The guy in the red corner focuses a node on a particular warhead, the guy in the blue corner hits it with an anti-node, and the result is a subtraction of damper factors modified by a suitable roll?
Of course, you don't know which warhead(s) the enemy is focusing his anti-dampers on until the mushroom cloud...
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As I understand the nuclear dampers, these are fairly short range weapons (point blank range only). If you're close enough to use the dampers on your own ship as anti-dampers, then you're also probably close enough to be affected by the explosion ...

... or for boading parties for that matter.

Away Boarders .... Arrr!
 
Originally posted by flykiller:
in HG2 the hull itself requires no dtonnage. perhaps it should - .02 for each G of agility.
At TL15 (the only one I can remember) armour disp is 1+a%, so if a=0 disp=1%.

I always took this as the dt of an unarmoured hull.
 
Originally posted by The Oz:
I think you are misunderstanding things here. A ship in TRAVELLER makes an interplanetary flight this way (accelerating constantly to a turnover half-way through, and then decelerating constantly to a velocity match with the destination) to get minimum travel time.

It would be possible to use less fuel by accelerating to some certain speed, halting acceleration and coasting towards the destination, and then, at some necessary distance, flipping and decelerating to a velocity match with the destination. But this technique will greatly increase travel time and since TRAVELLER ships don't have to worry about fuel for their maneuver drives (depending on which ruleset is used in a particular TU) it is an assumption that ships will choose the minimum-time flight profile as a matter of course.

Note that you do have to match velocities with the destination, so no matter which flight profile a ship chooses it will have to flip 180 degrees and decelerate at the end of the voyage.
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I must say, I am enjoying this lively discussion! Thanks to all of you, and especially Bill and Ptah, who are causing me to re-think 20+ years of apparently erroneous assumptions! I think probably I have been confusing acceleration (in the LBB2 sense) with thrust or impulse. Back in the day, I barely passed my boards for engineering certification, and (sadly) I must credit good fortune and the highly automated E-section of the Type-S rather than any ability of mine to function as engineer.

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These days I am glad to say I can rely upon far more qualified people than myself to crew the engineering section. Out in the Frontier Worlds, it is rare to find much of anything operating above Tech 12. Luckily, naval engagements of any sort are quite rare out here.
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If you want mass to influence the ships performance, I advice switching to TNE(1) or GT. Both systems basically use

Thrust/Mass = Accelleration

and GT explicitly drops the 6g border (TNE does implicitly) also both systems state that Absorbers/Gravplates only compensate a certain amount of g-forces.

In both systems you can still build a 175000dt battlecruiser that goes 5g but it takes a huge amount of space and reduces weapons (and through weight the armor) considerably. That at least gives fighters a reason to exist (fast strike/recon)

(1) Ignoring the special assumption about generalised thrust
 
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Thanks for the tip, Michael. Does anyone know which system T5 will employ?

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BTW, Whartung, I appreciate your explanations of the mechanics; they are very well presented.
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Everyone seems to think nukes are the best missles for fighters against capital ships. Everyone forgets the nuclear pumped x-ray missles. Dampers DO NOT AFFECT THEM! Take several dozen fighters each firing 1-2 of them at a target and any capital ship is going to have their point defense overwhelmed. Also each one that connects does multiple hits from the xray lasers. Eventually even the largest capital ship is going to be having a bad day with that many of those missles hitting them.
 
LordVan

Umm. I think that you're wrong on that count. You may want to re-read the rules on Dampers in TNE / T4 where this type of ordinance is employed.

While it is possible to get the extended range warheads (30,000 or 60,000 km range) that are likely to be out of range of "standard" dampers, dampers in TNE and T4 (Where the bomb-pumped X-ray lasers are used) are designed to take out this kind of ordinance.

Scott Martin
 
Originally posted by LordVan:
Everyone seems to think nukes are the best missles for fighters against capital ships.
That's because they are.

Everyone forgets the nuclear pumped x-ray missles.
No, we didn't.

Dampers DO NOT AFFECT THEM!
Yes, they do. Re-read TNE and T4.

You need to realize that nuc-pumped x-ray laser warheads are not present in all Traveller editions.

Eventually even the largest capital ship is going to be having a bad day with that many of those missles hitting them.
That depends on a number of factors, the chief of which is armor. In CT/HG2/MT nucs simply let fighters avoid that nasty +6 drm on the damage tables. When facing nuc-armed fighters, ships need to carry additional levels of armor to restore that +drm. But all this applies to damage, which is not what dooms the fighter as a warship killer in higher TLs.

What really puts paid to fighters as TL increases is the fact that their weapons - of any type - can no longer hit their opponents or penetrate those opponents' defenses.

As computers increase in size, fighters find themselves at an increasing disadvantage in hitting their opponents let alone damaging them. Around TL13, one TL after dampers appear, even small ships can carry a computer much larger than those fighters can carry or power.

Agility is the other part of this equation. Again, as TL increases, ships get more power from smaller plants allowing them to have high gee and agility ratings. Agility greatly helps to prevent hits also.

It's an ability to hit their opponent that sidelines the fighter in later tech levels and not what sort of weapons fighter hit their opponents.


Have fun,
Bill
 
Since I play the T20 rules it specifically states in there that the dampers DO NOT AFFECT THEM. And it also depends on how many turrets are designated to point defense. Most of the time if the fighters wait until the target is hammering away on another large ship, the target doesn't spare the turrets for point defense. Now for the other editions of Traveller I will admit they suck. Personally I think some work needs to be done in desgining some better weapons for fights but there really is not much to work with for the T20 system. Also why can't there be 50-ton and 100-ton bays for laser weapons.
However there is a fighter in one of the pdf book expansions for the T20 system that mounts a powerful fusion gun that can give even really big ships problems. But I forget which book.
 
I'm really enjoying this discussion - particularly whartung's explanations.

The makers of the computer game "EVE Online" have integrated the kind of physics whartung discusses into the game mechanics. They explain their ingame system for calculating weapons turrets' chances to hit in a handy interactive guide, here:

http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g26.asp

- might be of interest.

(Edit: fixing the link...)
 
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
What really puts paid to fighters as TL increases is the fact that their weapons - of any type - can no longer hit their opponents or penetrate those opponents' defenses.
Actually, no. What really makes fighters obsolete is the simple fact you can get more out of an unmanned missile than you could with a manned vehicle.
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Not in Traveller - the computer that would control the fighter sized missile is larger than the manned cockpit ;)
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That may be so, but I doubt that is the real issue here. The cost of the computer and its software would make it far more economical than the expense of training and retaining a pilot, with that highly specialized skill set. Why not simply use robots? Simple: IMTU artificial intelligence is just not as reliable as the good ol' fashioned biological variety, and remote control lacks critical response time. Otherwise, there would be no need for the lives of sentients to ever be lost in battle; let the cybernetic warriors duke it out and win the war by proxy.

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I had no idea the 'fighter' concept itself was so controversial! :D I think some of the roles offered up in this discussion do not even meet the basic criteria based on the definition of 'fighter'; they describe something altogether different. IMHO, fighters should be primarily utilized in the role of interceptor (after all that is what they are designed for) and for fast strike and fast recon; aside from the occasional lucky shot, I do find their likelihood of being a 'ship-killer' to be far-fetched.

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Don't care for the airplane analogy? Fine, think of the single-place fighter as a bee: individually pesky, mostly harmless, easy to kill; as a swarm, troublesome and maybe even downright dangerous. Very adept at quickly gathering recon data and moderately good at avoiding detection (or at minimum, of being easily overlooked). If the fighter concept exists in the far future, fighter tactics will be adapted to that reality, otherwise the fighter simply will not be used.
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That analogy is not entirely inaccurate; bees die after the first sting, which more or less reflects a space fighter's survival chances.
 
In a High Guard based universe, at high TLs the fighters only purpose I can find is screening the capital ships while they retreat.

For an aeroplane like fighter the missiles that the fleets shoot at each other are probably a closer analogy.

In a LBB2 universe the fighter is a bit more useful - but it is still more like an MTB than an F18.
 
Originally posted by stofsk:
Actually, no. What really makes fighters obsolete is the simple fact you can get more out of an unmanned missile than you could with a manned vehicle.
Stofsk,

Sorry, but no. At least not with Traveller fighters and missiles.

We tend to fixate on nuc missiles when discussing fighters because of the fact that they negate the +6 drm on the damage tables. In CT/HG2/MT weapon batteries with factors of 9 or less recieve an automatic +6 drm on the damage tables. Nucs allow vessels armed with only turrets or bays to 'punch' harder.

We also tend to forget that hittting doesn't not automatically equate damaging. There are 3 steps involved in the process. You must hit, then penetrate defenses, then cause damage. You can easily fail in any one of those steps.

There are many ways to juggle this three step process. As I wrote above, while we fixate on nucs because of the possibility of greater damage, fusion gun armed fighters have a much higher probability to hit due to a much higher battery factor. During the 'smoke tests' at the 'ct-starships' Yahoo group several years ago, fusion gun armed fighters did very well at certain tech levels.

The ability of a fighter to damage a larger vessel depends on a somewhat complex equation factoring in battery sizes, relative computer sizes, agility ratings, dampers, and armor. As TL increase, the equation shifts significantly in favor of larger ships, especially with regards to computer sizes and agility ratings.


Have fun,
Bill
 
Originally posted by Arthur Denger:
I had no idea the 'fighter' concept itself was so controversial!
Mr. Denger,

The topic is only controversial when people speak in absolutes; i.e. fighters are always good or bad regardless of tech level, or when people are unaware of the physics involved; i.e. smaller means more 'agile' regardless of engine thrust.

I think some of the roles offered up in this discussion do not even meet the basic criteria based on the definition of 'fighter'...
That's due more to the atmospheric prejudices you invest in the term 'fighter' than anything else.

We could call them sub-100dTon warships but fighter is quicker.

I do find their likelihood of being a 'ship-killer' to be far-fetched.
sigh Run the numbers. Design some fighters... ooops sub-100dTon warships and some +100dTon warships and figure the odds. A simple spreadsheet will do the trick.

It's quite simple. Below roughly TL12 or 13, fighters are ship killers.

[/qb]... individually pesky, mostly harmless, easy to kill; as a swarm, troublesome and maybe even downright dangerous.[/qb]
At certain TLs yes. However, at TL15 - the OTU's tech level - fighters cannot even HIT normal warships.


Have fun,
Bill
 
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