Foreven: Your Thoughts

[Whipsnade]

Just why is it so inconcievable that the Imperium would be stronger in the Marches than in Foreven and the Zhodani would be stronger in Foreven than in the Marches?

Hans,

Because the Imperium is closer to that portion of Foreven in which Imperialline's ill-concieved Avalar polity is said to exist than the Zhodani Consulate? And because your perception of the border between the Consulate and Imperium being limited to the Jewells is too narrow in a both political and astrographical sense?

Just as the de facto border between the Imperium and Heirate is a demilitarized region nearly a sector in size, the de facto border between the Imperium and Zhodani is a region running from the Jewells spinward and rimward through the Marches and on into Foreven. Those Foreven subsectors spinward of the Five Sisters are part of the Imperium's de facto border region with the Zhodani and the Imperium will be just as busy in them as the Zhodani are in the subsectors over their own de facto border region beyond their de jure borders.

After their victory in the Fifth Frontier War, the Imperium took steps to lessen Zhodani influence within the border region between the two powers. They reordered the government of one Zhodani minor ally, the Arden Federation, and essentially destroyed another Zhodani minor ally through partition, the Sword Worlds Confederation. Suggesting that they'd then ignore another Zhodani ally in the same border region, the alleged Avalar Consulate, is quite frankly implausible. When you remember that the alleged Avalar Consulate is even larger and thus potentially more dangerous to Imperial interests in the border region, suggesting that the Imperium wouldn't take steps against it or its political alignment is even more implausible.

SMC and JTAS' TNS reports tell us about the various measure the victorious Imperium took to lessen Zhodani influence in the border region the two powers share. The Avalar Consulate isn't mentioned, not because the Imperium didn't take steps against it or because those steps were somehow omitted in canonical reports, but because the Avalar Consulate didn't exist then and has never existed.

Like IRIS, the Avalar Consulate is an ill-concieved addition to the game created by well meaning Hobbyists and inserted into canon through irregular means. Like IRIS, the Avalar Consulate should be retconned out of existence as soon as practical.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

Because the Imperium is closer to that portion of Foreven in which Imperiallines' ill-concieved Avalar polity is said to exist than the Zhodani Consulate?

How can you possibly claim that? It isn't even true in an absolute sense (go look at a map), but the Imperium -- the main strength of the Imperium, that is -- isn't even as close to the Spinward Marches as the Zhodani Consulate is. What sense would there be in trying to grab Rhylanor before the Imperium could muster its reinforcements, if they didn't expect to be able to hold on to it in the face of anything the Imperium could realistically muster long enough to trade it back for concessions? If they expected to be able to hold on to Rhylanor, why wouldn't they be able to hold on places where they had local allies and a couple of years to fortify?

Just as the de facto border between the Imperium and Hierate is a demilitarized region nearly a sector in size, the de facto border between the Imperium and Zhodani is a region running from the Jewells spinward and rimward through the Marches and on into Foreven. Those Foreven subsectors spinward of the Five Sisters are part of the Imperium's de facto border region with the Zhodani and the Imperium will be just as busy in them as the Zhodani are in the subsectors over their own de facto border region beyond their de jure borders.

This is your interpretation, not actual facts.

After their victory in the Fifth Frontier War, the Imperium took steps to lessen Zhodani influence within the border region between the two powers. They reordered the government of one Zhodani minor ally, the Arden Federation, and essentially destroyed another Zhodani minor ally through partition, the Sword Worlds Confederation.

Two regions that were a lot closer to the Imperium than the Avalar Consulate is.

Suggesting that they'd then ignore another Zhodani ally in the same border region, the alleged Avalar Consulate, is quite frankly implausible.

I'm not suggesting that they ignored it. I'm suggesting that their victory was not complete enough to give them the strength to dictate terms about conditions in Foreven the way they were able to do it in the Spinward Marches. The Imperials were occupying the Border Worlds. They weren't occupying the Avalar Consulate. The Border worlds is closer to the Imperium than the Avalar Consulate. Having the strength to occupy the Border Worlds does not prove that they'd have the strength to occupy the Border Worlds and operate effectively in Foreven at the same time. In fact, the occupation makes it likelier that they wouldn't be, since it would reduce the available strength.

Norris got a great deal of negotiation capital out of smashing several Zhodani Fleets. But splitting up the Sword Worlds cost him some of that capital, and the Zhodani had more fleets.

When you remember that the alleged Avalar Consulate is even larger and thus potentially more dangerous to Imperial interests in the border region, suggesting that the Imperium wouldn't take steps against it or its political alignment is even more implausible.

What steps would you suggest that the Imperium is able to take at the negotiating table in 1110? It has the military advantage in the Marches and is able to dictate terms, sure, but that does not prove that it would have the military strength to take the fight into Foreven at that time. The Zhodani weren't crushed, they were repulsed. There's a really, really big difference.

SMC and JTAS' TNS reports tell us about the various measure the victorious Imperium took to lessen Zhodani influence in the border region the two powers share.

That's an interpretation, not a fact. I think it's just as plausible to interpret it as measures taken to lessen Zhodani influence in the part of the border region the Imperium was able to impose measures on.

The Avalar Consulate isn't mentioned, not because the Imperium didn't take steps against it or because those steps were somehow omitted in canonical reports, but because the Avalar Consulate didn't exist then and has never existed.

That's one interpretation. Another is that they weren't mentioned because they weren't implemented. (Note, I'm talking in-universe reasons as I assume you are too; the real meta-reason they weren't mentioned is, of course, that they weren't mentioned).


Hans

 

[Hyphen]

Hyphen,

As I wrote, remembering to keep things "small" would preclude the existence of any "dragons" in the Foreven "dungeon".


Regards,
Bill

There goes that idea for Pern, then. *sigh*

 

[Hyphen]

That's the idea I've been trying to convey, yes.

(snip, lots of good stuff)

Both Hans and Bill have good, if opposing, points to make. (Hey, remember what I said about shaking out the wheat after all the threshing is over?

I for one would be interested in seeing a tentative "trade route map" of the place (i.e. the sort of trade links calculated as per GURPS: Far Trader).

If trade is supposed to be the lifeblood of any interstellar polity, yada yada yada... then the "size" (real strength) of Avelar may turn out to be (read: can be designer-manipulated to be)** a lot less than is suggested by mere borderlines and number of systems. If they were all Poor and low-tech worlds, for example, then Avelar may not be able to field anything that would give Norris pause...

**You can always design something that looks good but is less than impressive. Sword Worlds vs Darrians, case in point - similar number of systems, "footprint" and so on, but who would YOU prefer to engage in combat with?)

 

[robject]

[...] So if someone were to write up the Hissayt, the Emissyob, the Ayvaylk, the Bestoy, the Nebbay, the Hayyarn[*], and all the other plants and animals of Eskaloyt, they can be used as effectively indigenous species anywhere in Charted Space and beyond.

Neat idea!

 

[kafka47]

I don't think Avalon (as it is IMTU) can get off too easily, for me it is the Dark Mirror in which the Consulate has its gaze. Similarly, for all of Foreven, it is the nasty secret where the Imperium & Consulate do all their dirty tricks with a long string of Non Aligned Worlds who are viving for the favors of the larger power. However, the Imperium & the Consulate have to do this tacitly and quietly as neither side wants to provoke a frontier war there and thus most of the conflict is reserved for proxies. Insuring, I get a good return on my investments in Mercenary (CT/MgT) & Agent (MgT/T4).

So the Great Game is being played here but rather than East & Western Europe, my model for Foreven is akin to Africa. Then to make things interesting, there is the Darrian claim. Which even in my online game here on the CoTI the Darrian claim complicates Imperial-Darrian relations setting the stage for 1248 Spinward (fragmented) States. The Swordies also play a role but that is verbotten knowledges.

 

[ThunderChilde]

Nothing cogent to offer to this debate beyond a few observations and opinions.

A. The Darrians. Spread over thier subsector before the Megiz. They may not be the most warlike people, but they are deep thinkers. I cannot see them being oblivious to the threat that the Avalar would pose. It breaks my OTU suspenders. Heck for that matter I don't care for a lot of the material I've seen written about the Darrians. An awful lot of it ascribes stupidity and pettiness as the prime characteristics of the Darrian State. It doesn't add up.

B. If I was to use anyones published materials on the the Foreven, Beyond and Trojan it would be a derivative of Paranoia Press's products. I like Darhkstar's take on the region.

C. My natural inclination is to just brew up my own take on Foreven, complete with Darrian colonies, reseach bases, and survey bases. Did I meantion that the Darrians always seem to get a short shrift in Canon? Hemmed in by the Imperium and Sword Worlds, Foreven is the only place to expand, inquire, and explore for a thinking, curious people.

D. Any third party "foreven" product that I find worth it will make my "as the budget allows" list. To be honest Mongoose is swamping it right now.

 

[Whipsnade]

My request would be, "Work with the Hell Creek people"...

I missed this during my first read through. Jon, if you're still reading this thread, let me strongly suggest that you ignore ShannonA's suggestion. You have announced, produced, and released two entire product subscriptions along with several other products while Hell Creek hasn't done anything but make promises.

Back in January, Hell Creek made bold announcements here and on other RPG fora about soon-to-be-released products for Traveller and Savage Worlds. Nothing has been released to date except for excuses. A few months later, Dale Meier, Hell Creek's creative director, apologized for the delays and asked what sort of smaller products people may be interesting in seeing. Again, none of those scaled back projects have been released. The latest promise from Hell Creek is that "something: may be available they hope, around December of this year.

I hope no one is holding their breath.

You've made good on your promises, you've produced actual materials. If you partner with Hell Creek on a Foreven project or any project you'll be partnering with just another clutch of RPG vaporware merchants and your own reputation as a Traveller author and publisher who actually delivers will suffer for it. Until they show that they can actually produce what they promise, avoid Hell Creek and protect you own reputation.

Besides, if you publish materials set in Foreven first it will incumbent on Hell Creek to follow your lead, that is if they're able to finally publish anything at all.


Regards,
Bill

 

[robject]

A few months later, Dale Meier, Hell Creek's creative director...

Oh, is that who he is? I wondered who he was. Thanks for the data.

 

[dmccoy1693]

Jon, if you're still reading this thread,

Oh, yes, still reading. Even from GenCon. I'm still reading. And allow me to say that I am considering all options, but at the end of the day, I"m going to do what I feel is best for the fans and my company. If I felt collaberating would produce a better product, than I'd go that route. And I'd go the other way should I feel the opposite be true.

 

[Hyphen]

So if someone were to write up the Hissayt, the Emissyob, the Ayvaylk, the Bestoy, the Nebbay, the Hayyarn[*], and all the other plants and animals of Eskaloyt, they can be used as effectively indigenous species anywhere in Charted Space and beyond.

[*] Not canonical. A long time ago I worked out the composition of the Ancient coyn set (the one found in 300,000 year old Ancient sites as opposed to the ones found on the worlds Grandfather messed with 70,000 years ago (or was it 75,000?). One set of six coyns that I came up with (the ones eliminated to make room for the new coyns Grandfather introduced) were six prey animals (used by pre-Ancient Droyne to perform hunt magic). I think I came up with short one-paragraph descriptions of them, but I can't locate them any more.​

My apologies. Two days ago I found Hans' original 1996 Xboat article, plus the 1999 TML follow-up (yes, I am a pack-rat), and planned to convert it and upload it to my "Best of the TML" pages. I still hope to do this in the next day or two, but I have been delayed.

BTW, the article does not include descriptions of the suggested Eskaloyt animals; in fact, Hans, I think even the 1996 version says you cannot find the original write-ups - so they've been missing for a while.

 

[Whipsnade]

Oh, is that who he is? I wondered who he was. Thanks for the data.

Robject,

I'm sure that title has been printed up on dozens and dozens of business cards and passed around proudly. As with all things Traveller, labels can be confusing.

You can buy business card kits for under $20 at any office super store these days that produce excellent results in your home printer. If you're willing to pay a little more, most office super stores will actually print up a couple hundred embossed cards on good quality stock overnight. For the price of filet mignon for four, you can whip out a card stating that you're the Grand Poobah of Arglebargle-IX or the Emir or Schmoe or just an everyday insurance adjuster simply looking for the witness to a fender bender.

Hell Creek Sanitarium has a "creative director" and, we can presume, a "president/CEO". Whether it also has any writers, editors, or supervisors who hold everyone's feet to fire until promised deadlines are met is another question.

My money is on three guys in different timezones who e-mail each a other a few times a week and who each get to wear very important hats.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Hyphen]

Dear Folks -

My apologies. Two days ago I found Hans' original 1996 Xboat article...

OK, I have just uploaded Hans' article on Ancient Coyns to my website (link in my .sig, below).

Go to: The Best of the TML --> Background --> Background - Ancient Coyns

or if you really want, take the direct (out-of-context) link here:
http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/best_tml/Background - Ancient Coyns.htm

 

[robject]

For the price of filet mignon for four, you can whip out a card stating that you're the Grand Poobah of Arglebargle-IX...

Excuse, me, but in fact I am the Grand Poobah of Arglebargle-IX.

 

[Hyphen]

Excuse, me, but in fact I am the Grand Poobah of Arglebargle-IX.

In that case, where's your business card?

 

[DonM]

Well, I have a certificate signed by Strephon naming me Duke of Thanber. I'm not going to get that on a business card, but I do have a coat of arms here somewhere. "Squashed turban gules, crossed marine cutlasses argent, on a field of Imperial sunbursts proper" or something like that.

 

[coliver988]

In that case, where's your business card?

 

[Sylvre Phire]

Hell Creek Sanitarium has a "creative director" and, we can presume, a "president/CEO". Whether it also has any writers, editors, or supervisors who hold everyone's feet to fire until promised deadlines are met is another question.

My money is on three guys in different timezones who e-mail each a other a few times a week and who each get to wear very important hats.


Regards,
Bill

Okay, Bill. I'm calling you out. Here and now. I'm going to put my cards on the table and lay everything on the line so that EVERYONE here can understand what's going on and why things are taking so long with us.

1) Yes, we're all divided into different areas of the planet. We all communicate via e-mail.

2) The reason we're not moving as swiftly as we should be is because I'm dealing with a lot of intense business right now of the personal nature. If that isn't a good enough explanation for you, then here: In June my mom was diagnosed with lung cancer. She had a thoracotomy and so I took time off from work to be at her bedside as she recovered. This occurred during the time when you and a number of other individuals went off on your little jihad against Mongoose Traveller and its proponents. At the same time, my wife and I were in the process of moving households to our new home, which does not have an Internet connection.

My mother continued to make progress in recovery until mid-July when she passed out twice at a hospital in another city during her checkup. She was rushed back to the hospital where she had her surgery. Tests confirmed she had blood clots in both lungs. A week later she began refusing treatment and was moved into hospice care. She was in hospice care for only one night and passed away. I was there with her until the end.

3) Now that my mom's passed away, my wife and I, with the aid of my mother-in-law, have to basically clean house. That means on my days off I have to drive 3 1/2+ hours to my hometown (Holstein, IA; I currently live in Omaha, NE) to work on making final preparations for an estate sale, divide up family heirlooms, and generally get things situated. Complicating this matter is the fact that both my wife and I are only children, so we don't have siblings to help out. For what it's worth, my dad's been dead since I was 17, so he's not much help in this situation anyway.

4) Because of all this, David Blalock is currently our interim creative director. My partner, Norm Pavlov, and I, both live in Omaha. You'll note that I left my title off because I've taken that hat off to address this odious bit of business.

Happy now?

Dale Meier

 

[aramis]

It is real simple, Dale:
Personal life made your business look like poseur-hood.
You made anouncements that didn't get lived up to.
You damaged your business' good name by your actions.

A piece of advice for the future:
Never announce a product that isn't in layout already. Never put a date on anything that isn't ready to ship.

 

[Sylvre Phire]

It is real simple, Dale:
Personal life made your business look like poseur-hood.
You made anouncements that didn't get lived up to.
You damaged your business' good name by your actions.

A piece of advice for the future:
Never announce a product that isn't in layout already. Never put a date on anything that isn't ready to ship.

Nice. If only it were all true.

Yes, real life interfered. No date was announced, only that our products would be forthcoming this year. I haven't seen the clock hit 2010 yet. I'll take your advice under consideration.

Dale Meier