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Got Life-boats ? - Canon or Not

A Fission Reaction can run-away and become uncontrolled because it is a chain-reaction that needs to be moderated by control rods. (And an Antimatter plant would likewise present its own set of dangers from its fuel alone). But those are not standard Traveller starship power-plants.

Sodium moderated fission can't even do that... the sodium enhances neutron flow (rather than absorbing it), and if the reaction overheats, it boils off (into a catch tank). So, in overheat, the sodium winds up in the catch tank, rather than the reactor, and the neutrons suddenly have to go through less neutron-permiable air... stopping the reaction. Not so good a design for space use... but on the ground? Sure!
 
Sodium moderated fission can't even do that... the sodium enhances neutron flow (rather than absorbing it), and if the reaction overheats, it boils off (into a catch tank). So, in overheat, the sodium winds up in the catch tank, rather than the reactor, and the neutrons suddenly have to go through less neutron-permiable air... stopping the reaction. Not so good a design for space use... but on the ground? Sure!

You could use sodium borate injected into the solution to control the reaction I suppose. Boron is a major neutron killer in reactors. It has a huge cross section in barns.
The hard part would be later reducing it (ie., bringing it out of solution) to increase the reaction. I suppose with several millennia of technological advances that would be possible to do relatively cheaply.
 
I feel since Traveller is an adventure game, rather than a sort of simulator, that a certain element of drama is intentionally implied in regards to all actions, hence the reason ships can-do blow-up.

As to life-boats, I view such IMTU as just another possible plot device or 'texture' added to detail the scenery the players act against, should that make much sense.

I get that, but it strikes me a lot like the business about cars blowing up in action movies. Looks cool, but it kinda spoils my willing-suspension-of-disbelief, leaves me looking at it like it's some sort of satire.

I have a great and abiding respect for Tom Servo, and I'm probably not a nice person to watch movies with. :D

When game-mastering, I work by a simple rule: the typical Traveller player most likely has a brain and probably knows how to use it. Ergo, if I treat him like the idiot that car-chase film writers seem to think their audience is, there's a fair chance I won't see him again. If I announce to a group that their ship is about to blow up, I can pretty well guarantee that someone will want to know what's about to blow up, why, whether they can do anything about it, and what idiot of an engineer designed the thing to have a potential for blowing up without leaving them some way to get it off the ship.

So, where I come from fusion power plants don't blow up, though they might leak some horribly corrosive chemical under the right - er, wrong - circumstances. Jump drives might blow up given the exactly the wrong combination of unlikely system failures but, short of some black-globe issue, the worst case is jettisoning one or more of the capacitor assemblies into space if a jump drive hit occurs while building up for jump, with the result that one of the things the engineer has to do while repairing the drive is to replace that capacitor assembly. Maneuver drives are weird science that propel the ship in Ways Man Was Never Meant To Know and, being mystery science, harbor opportunities for all manner of odd mischief including a very rare but not unheard of risk of catastrophic explosion on a certain well-known critical hit roll.

Which is not to say you can't blow up anything you want in your own universe. However, it is worthwhile to remember that there are people roleplaying in this drama, that they're trying to obtain the best outcome they can manage for themselves, that they therefore may have some very reasonable questions to ask if you draw that card on them, and that it is helpful to have reasonable answers if you want them to come back next week.
 
A bit of exploration on lifeboats, and a critique of same, can be found at Atomic Rockets:

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/advdesign.php

To summarize the arguments against lifeboats:

Ta for the link and reply. After a quick skim, I am left with "but I like lifeboats..." which does not make a good argument. It's up there with I like pirates (which I do). I will read the link and have think on it over Christmas :-)
 
Ta for the link and reply. After a quick skim, I am left with "but I like lifeboats..." which does not make a good argument. It's up there with I like pirates (which I do). I will read the link and have think on it over Christmas :-)

There's nothing wrong with lifeboats on warships and exploration ships, since they go places where they can't expect help. Same for merchant ships who go to undeveloped little corners of the sector. I've contemplated having warships carry at least one jump-capable craft inside them on the thought that they might find themselves in a hard way in hostile systems or even in deep space between stars and might need to have someone jump back to a base to arrange a rescue of that very expensive and valuable asset - and the crew, of course. The larger ships have those escorts and likely some couriers and other supports, but those might get lost in combat or end up being sacrificed to cover the larger ship's retreat, so one can't always count on having an escort or courier handy for that.

Just don't plan on needing a lifeboat for a ship whose entire career consists of entering jump space 100 diameters from a world with a well-equipped starport and then exiting jumpspace 100 diameters from another world with a well-equipped starport.
 
Just don't plan on needing a lifeboat for a ship whose entire career consists of entering jump space 100 diameters from a world with a well-equipped starport and then exiting jumpspace 100 diameters from another world with a well-equipped starport.

No allowance for mis-jumps then?
 
Unless your lifeboat is jump capable how does it help in the event of a mis-jump?

Depends upon the nature of the lifeboat, and the edition.

In T4, one could build a lifeboat with 5-10 years PP, deep space enabled gravity drives, and some Emergency Low Berths, and have a practical 1 Pc (albeit 5 year) range.
 
No allowance for mis-jumps then?

Unless the gamemaster throws in some random trick of his own, misjumps on that level can best be characterized as, "someone took a chance and lost." That's not likely to be the ship running back and forth on some safe established route between two good starports. It's more likely to be the warship, explorer, or the kind of merchant who takes chances in undeveloped or underdeveloped systems - who as I said are probably the folk who could benefit from a lifeboat.

As I mentioned, one of the things I've been thinking about is jump-capable carried craft for large warships. Large warships could basically carry a 100 dT jump ketch with a bunch of ELBs. Small warships, I've worked up a cutter module for the cutter that contains a jump drive, bridge extension, fuel tank and an expandable jump mesh (Supplement 9, page 22, Jump Ship) that can be expanded out on spars to fill the thing out to the minimum required 100 dT volume, but it's purely an IMTU idea since we have no data on the jump mesh and its stowed volume or cost.

The other thing I worked up was emergency supplies and equipment -

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=33009&highlight=emergency

that included items like radioisotope power generators to power the low berths for up to 4 years and a small emergency power plant that could draw on the ship's remaining fuel to maintain emergency power for life support and beacons for about two years per dTon of remaining fuel (assuming of course you shut down the main power plant to conserve fuel when you realize you've misjumped). Idea came from a comment in TNE's Survival Margin about finding survivors in still-operating low berths in derelict ships disabled by Virus. Same thing could keep folk alive long enough for a signal to reach a nearby star system and for rescue to jump out to them - assuming we have a way to get a signal across a parsec distance that could be heard after crossing that distance, which is probably one of those points where we just hope future tech is very, very good.

Depends upon the nature of the lifeboat, and the edition.

In T4, one could build a lifeboat with 5-10 years PP, deep space enabled gravity drives, and some Emergency Low Berths, and have a practical 1 Pc (albeit 5 year) range.

Better than 0.6 C. The boat has some impressive shielding.
 
Unless the gamemaster throws in some random trick of his own, misjumps on that level can best be characterized as, "someone took a chance and lost." That's not likely to be the ship running back and forth on some safe established route between two good starports. It's more likely to be the warship, explorer, or the kind of merchant who takes chances in undeveloped or underdeveloped systems - who as I said are probably the folk who could benefit from a lifeboat.

As I mentioned, one of the things I've been thinking about is jump-capable carried craft for large warships. Large warships could basically carry a 100 dT jump ketch with a bunch of ELBs. Small warships, I've worked up a cutter module for the cutter that contains a jump drive, bridge extension, fuel tank and an expandable jump mesh (Supplement 9, page 22, Jump Ship) that can be expanded out on spars to fill the thing out to the minimum required 100 dT volume, but it's purely an IMTU idea since we have no data on the jump mesh and its stowed volume or cost.

The other thing I worked up was emergency supplies and equipment -

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=33009&highlight=emergency

that included items like radioisotope power generators to power the low berths for up to 4 years and a small emergency power plant that could draw on the ship's remaining fuel to maintain emergency power for life support and beacons for about two years per dTon of remaining fuel (assuming of course you shut down the main power plant to conserve fuel when you realize you've misjumped). Idea came from a comment in TNE's Survival Margin about finding survivors in still-operating low berths in derelict ships disabled by Virus. Same thing could keep folk alive long enough for a signal to reach a nearby star system and for rescue to jump out to them - assuming we have a way to get a signal across a parsec distance that could be heard after crossing that distance, which is probably one of those points where we just hope future tech is very, very good.



Better than 0.6 C. The boat has some impressive shielding.

Not shielding. Armor. It's possible to put a 1m thick armor plate of Bonded SD on it in TNE or T4, just for giggles and snorts. (That's equal to about 15m of steel. Just for reference.)

And you only need that baffle on the front, at least if the drive's gravitic. Sure, it's only getting 1% of nominal thrust, but that's plenty over that time frame; you can easily crank if indefinitely at 1/20th of a G. Just mount the drives on a pivot. (It's entirely possible to build it all with FF&S.)
 
Not shielding. Armor. It's possible to put a 1m thick armor plate of Bonded SD on it in TNE or T4, just for giggles and snorts. (That's equal to about 15m of steel. Just for reference.)

And you only need that baffle on the front, at least if the drive's gravitic. Sure, it's only getting 1% of nominal thrust, but that's plenty over that time frame; you can easily crank if indefinitely at 1/20th of a G. Just mount the drives on a pivot. (It's entirely possible to build it all with FF&S.)

I am sorely tempted to calculate how long it might take to erode that armor given impact with matter at speed X and density Y over Z years - but I won't. :D
 
I am sorely tempted to calculate how long it might take to erode that armor given impact with matter at speed X and density Y over Z years - but I won't. :D

We don't know the erosion profiles for bonded superdense...
 
Hmmm, I think that my view of mis-jumps is a bit different from standard. Also, I do not think that the discussion is taking sufficient heed to probably government regulations, especially at high law levels.

Sufficeth to say, I will preface any more views on the subject as non-canonical, Alternate Traveller Universe.
 
We don't know the erosion profiles for bonded superdense...

Aww, we could make a very rough stab at it based on the material's penetration characteristics, but it'd pretty much be guesswork.

Hmmm, I think that my view of mis-jumps is a bit different from standard. Also, I do not think that the discussion is taking sufficient heed to probably government regulations, especially at high law levels. ...

Do the planetside law levels have any influence on how ships are designed?
 
Do the planetside law levels have any influence on how ships are designed?

Not so much as how ships are designed directly, but on how ships operating in a high law level environment are designed.

In MTU, at Law Levels or 8 and above, ships that fail to meet required safety standards may unload passengers and cargo, but may not load passengers and cargo. The ship may depart the planet without being required to meet safety regulations, but that is it.

Required safety equipment will include an emergency rescue ball for every BERTH on the ship, not just crew and passengers, to include low berths if carried. The rescue balls must be capable of sustaining life support for one person for 24 hours, be equipped with an emergency locator beacon and short-range communicator, 2 liters of water, emergency rations containing at least 1800 calories, internal light, and liquid waste disposal. Rescue balls must show evidence of passing a safety and reliability inspection within the past 360 days.

If low berths are carried, in order to be used, the ship must carry either a Medic-2 specializing in low-berth technology or a Medic-3 General Practitioner. If low berths have been used without the required medical personnel on-board, the ship will be seized for violations of established safety practices, and crew and passengers interrogated under veridication to ensure that no non-surviving low berth passenger bodies have been spaced prior to landing, a fine of 25,000 Imperial Credits per low berth paid, and the required medical personnel hired.


The ship must carry a life boat or launch or small boat capable of carrying all crew and passengers (again based on total berths on the ship) at the rate of 8 persons per displacement ton of usable space, sufficient life support for the required number of people for 2 weeks, to include water and food, a basic survival kits for each passenger, and a more complete survival kit for each crew member. Mandatory emergency evacuation drills will be carried out prior to being cleared for departure. Small boat crew must have demonstrated the ability to collect rescue pods within a 12 hour time period within the past 180 days, as well as maintenance and safety checks on the small boat and ship.
 
Ta for the link and reply. After a quick skim, I am left with "but I like lifeboats..." which does not make a good argument. It's up there with I like pirates (which I do). I will read the link and have think on it over Christmas :-)

1) Lifeboats (or lifepods) might still make sense for ships likely to be in hostile or primitive environments or likely to be shot at.

2) Passenger ships might require them as a commercial necessity if some or most passengers don't understand or psychologically can't accept the logical arguments.
 
On the exploding drive thing - if the drives manipulate gravity then couldn't catastrophic failure involve gravitational type problems e.g. ship being ripped in half or bent out of ship or forced into crazy spins?

This doesn't negate the jettison argument but potentially makes for some interesting gravity-based disaster scenarios e.g. ship moving "forward" at 3G while the floor has the standard 1G and then the floor gravitics fail.
 
On the exploding drive thing - if the drives manipulate gravity then couldn't catastrophic failure involve gravitational type problems e.g. ship being ripped in half or bent out of ship or forced into crazy spins?

This doesn't negate the jettison argument but potentially makes for some interesting gravity-based disaster scenarios e.g. ship moving "forward" at 3G while the floor has the standard 1G and then the floor gravitics fail.

That really would only make a bit of a mess. HUmans can function in up to 3G without significant problems.

Now, try that at 30G, and things get much, much worse.
 
Not so much as how ships are designed directly, but on how ships operating in a high law level environment are designed. ...

That's fine for an IMTU setting and for ships landing outside of the starport extrality, but I was given to understand that ships in the starport proper were under Imperial regulation, not local regulation. However, I'm not 100% versed on canon related to the subject, especially with all the other Traveller variants. The locals can enforce requirements on what goes in or comes out of the starport, but is there some bit that gives the locals authority to require the starport authorities to impose such regulations within the starport itself?

...Required safety equipment will include an emergency rescue ball for every BERTH on the ship, not just crew and passengers, to include low berths if carried. ...

That's an interesting requirement. I've been requiring rescue balls as a means of dealing with decompression emergencies, but I treat the low berths as airtight and link them to a source of backup power (RTGs, said hot little beasties located in the engine room with all the other big heat sources), so they don't become an additional burden in an emergency. I hadn't considered what might happen if a warship, exploration ship, etc. was forced to abandon ship, but I'd have thought if there was time to wake the sleepers, there'd be time for them to get to the lifeboat. At a reasonable starport, I figure a ship in an emergency would either wait for rescue or be in such a hurry that the low berth passengers would have to be abandoned. How do you see the rescue balls being used with respect to the low berths?

...The rescue balls must be capable of sustaining life support for one person for 24 hours, be equipped with an emergency locator beacon and short-range communicator, 2 liters of water, emergency rations containing at least 1800 calories, internal light, and liquid waste disposal. Rescue balls must show evidence of passing a safety and reliability inspection within the past 360 days. ...

Why the locator and communicator? Also, have you considered requiring the ball to contain a dose of Fast drug to lower metabolic demand, as an alternative to requiring the food and water and 24-hour air supply? I recall from IE that the (MT) rescue ball delivers enough air (and presumably CO2 scrubbing) to support the occupant for two hours, which under Fast drug should last 5 days (assuming the CO2 scrubber is of a design that can function for 5 days) without the occupant experiencing noticeable thirst or hunger in that time. At Cr200, Fast drug is likely cheaper and certainly much smaller than a system delivering O2 and providing CO2 scrubbing at normal metabolic demand for 24 hours.

...The ship must carry a life boat or launch or small boat capable of carrying all crew and passengers (again based on total berths on the ship) at the rate of 8 persons per displacement ton of usable space, sufficient life support for the required number of people for 2 weeks, to include water and food, a basic survival kits for each passenger, and a more complete survival kit for each crew member. Mandatory emergency evacuation drills will be carried out prior to being cleared for departure. Small boat crew must have demonstrated the ability to collect rescue pods within a 12 hour time period within the past 180 days, as well as maintenance and safety checks on the small boat and ship.

Would this include the ships that are assigned to established trade routes between high-quality starports? If so, is this a legacy requirement from a period when things were less safe, or is there a specific class of emergency that might render them useful on such routes?

I'm also curious about the collecting-rescue-balls bit. If the ship is required to have a lifeboat, why are the rescue balls not being taken directly into the lifeboat before the lifeboat launches? Is this a backup requirement in case the lifeboat itself is damaged in the emergency?

...2) Passenger ships might require them as a commercial necessity if some or most passengers don't understand or psychologically can't accept the logical arguments.

Maybe, but my thought is that in a thousand-plus year old Imperium, itself an heir to a civilization that had already been in space for 4000 years, passengers on regular routes between good quality starports would no more expect a lifeboat than passengers in a modern passenger jet would expect a parachute. Those who don't understand or psychologically can't accept the accumulated experience of 5000 years of interstellar flight most likely suffer from cosmophobia and are likely to just stay home.

On the exploding drive thing - if the drives manipulate gravity then couldn't catastrophic failure involve gravitational type problems e.g. ship being ripped in half or bent out of ship or forced into crazy spins?

This doesn't negate the jettison argument but potentially makes for some interesting gravity-based disaster scenarios e.g. ship moving "forward" at 3G while the floor has the standard 1G and then the floor gravitics fail.

An interesting idea for an IYTU dramatic event to throw at your players, but the exploding drive thing was only intended to reflect the CT Book-2/High Guard business about ships exploding/vaporizing on certain critical hit results. There's really not anything on a ship that will generate a ship-vaporizing explosion except a black globe unit and maybe the missiles, and not all ships carry black globe or missiles. One is obliged to invent some acceptable explanation for why the ship goes BOOM when the rolls say it goes BOOM, lest your unlucky Scout/Free-Trader owning player heap curses upon you for inflexibly following rules unsupported by logic. It's hard to argue the J-drive should go boom when it's not in use, and there's nothing about a PP that suggests a ship-shattering KABOOM; that by elimination leaves the M-drive as the potential source of sudden woe.

This is where things get hinky and the lifeboat question comes into play. Book 2 says the ship "Explode(s)". No indication of the fate of passengers and crew. A merciful DM might allow time to reach the lifeboats, but this implies the explosion is for some reason delayed long enough for them to have a chance at reaching the lifeboat - and as I noted earlier, if there's time for that, there's time to get rid of the dangerous equipment, and the game doesn't seem to recognize such an alternative (though of course you could add it in for your own TU). Ergo, an "Explode" event is too quick to mitigate.

However, Book-2 also says, "If a critical hit is achieved, then the critical hit table is consulted with one die. The result is complete destruction or incapacitation of the indicated item. Unlike ordinary hits, the entire item is destroyed (crew is not necessarily killed, but is rendered unable to function)." A merciful DM might extend that to rule the explosion destroys the drive compartment and its associated drives while leaving individuals in the bridge and living spaces alive, at least for the moment. (One hopes they're already in vacc suits and rescue balls.) In that case, the utility of a lifeboat depends on whether SDBs are hurrying to your rescue or whether you're entirely on your own.

Book 5 says "utterly destroyed," but I don't think your players are going to point out that rule if you let them have a floating hulk to shelter in.
 
That really would only make a bit of a mess. HUmans can function in up to 3G without significant problems.

Now, try that at 30G, and things get much, much worse.

Wouldn't the crew go flying if the floor plates failed? (Or am I misunderstanding how it works?)
 
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