High Guard 1.5 (<1979 edition)

[robject]

A single TL diff can be built into the tables, but the difference between TL-15 and TL-12? We only have 9 factors to play with...

And so the TL mod is re-using those 9 factors as a kind of sliding, relative scale.


But you see, that means the TL14 ship attacks with a Factor-8 attack, while the TL15 ship has a Factor-9 defense, and vice versa. And yes, the TL12 ship has Factor-6 attacks and defneses.

So, build the design system so the TL14 ship has an actual attack factor of 8, and the TL15 ship has a defense factor of 9.

If we need to extend the battery factors out, maybe it's worth it.

In that case, build the system so the TL15 ship has an attack factor of 15, and the TL14 ship a defense factor of 14...

 

[kilemall]

Because the number of tons of damage required to reduce a drive on a BB by 1 factor will instantly destroy light cruisers - conversely if the number of tons of damage reduces an escort ship's drive by one factor it is going to take hundreds of hits to do anything to a BB - which is against the lowering the number of dice rolls paradigm.

I see that as a feature not a negative.

I’m doing one shot cuts in half for two damage rolls, if it’s a 300 ton hit it goes 150/150. First one say destroys a 100 ton weapon bay, then 200 tons to the second damage roll.

Another key difference is hull hits are straight up 1:1 tonnage (with caveats not relevant for now). If the 150 ton hits a scout’s hull, the ship breaks up.

150/200 ton hull hits will wreck most ACS ships (I also tie streamlining, maximum G and subsystem failures to hull damage). They will just tickle a 30000 ton cruiser and Tigress won’t notice.

Except.

I have that critical hit roll from the CT table in its spot. Even a little 10 ton hit can be split 5 ton/5 ton, and the second damage roll has a shot at it. PA spinals, nuclear missiles and all meson guns have two shots at it, and the mesons have a better chance with their initial internal hit. Criticals however disable, which is all about the engineering drama.

Which I’m sure rings alarm bells reading that, but a big reduction factor is armor, to wit- the weapon can’t penetrate unless it has a higher factor then the armor. This interacts with distance, any non-missile drops a factor every 100000 km and missiles increase their damage/pen value as their velocity increases.

This is all about the maneuver, but then again my scale and intent is about player level resolution, not ship design demolition derby. I’m just offering these as thought pieces, not a ready solution for other purposes.


So a bigger question to ask is, what game do you want to play?

HG battle? TCS campaign? What granularity and time to play vs ship count?

Easiest/fastest for big empire line em up would be a shipbuilding system within the Imperium system, divorced from HG builds as it’s own thing.

HG/TCS except less die rolling? Well you’re probably on the right track with boiling each weapon category to a factor, perhaps spinals on their own track, bay weapons of a type go 2 targets and damage reduces their factors, and armor/various PDs become a general defense value that can be worn down.

Going to need the full 0-Z range for nuanced firepower valuation.

The most important thing is decide what game it is, then gird your loins and change the resolution system for that effect. You can’t hack the present charts readily without arguably making for greater negatives.

 

[mike wightman]

Size factor.

Hull size	1-1,000	1,001-20,000	20,001-75,000	75,000-200,000	200,001-1,000,000
size factor	1	2	3	4	5

Make size factor a universal DM, and apply it everywhere it makes sense, to produce a positive outcome

Weapon factor - do everything by the book but increase weapon factor by size factor (not spinal)

Combat. relative size factor is a positive DM for bigger ship on penetration rolls

Damage - one hit plus a bonus number of hits equal to size factor.

 

[robject]

I'm liking that, Mike. My preference is to roll that DM into the design system, but regardless I think that's the right direction.

Is there a difference between "increase weapon factor by size factor" and "relative size factor is a DM"? I suppose if the combat tables are not 1:1, then there is a difference, so there is flexibility there.

But again, my preference would still be to bake it into design if possible, and turn the combat into a straight roll on the tables with no DMs.

Especially for your size classes, bumping a ship up by a bit of tonnage won't force a re-evaluation of those batteries... and in those cases where it does, you're re-evaluating three or four factors, which... seems acceptable to me.

It kind of blocks us from doing reverse-design, which kind of is a bummer, but... every bit of combat streamlining seems worth it to me.

---

More than two of you have suggested extended bay battery factors, so let me use them in an example.

1000 (A) thru (K) 19,999 tons = +1
20k (L) thru (P) 99,999 tons = +2
100k (Q) to (Q) 199,999 tons = +3
200k+ (R and up) = +4

A 20,000 ton Nolikian has a battery of fifty TL15 Missile LBays at strength Factor-13. The Size Bonus kicks it up to Factor-15.

Now the 50,000 ton Zhodani Blipsketl Super-Escort has fifty TL14 Nuclear Damper LBays that map to Factor-11. The ship size bonus kicks it up to Factor-13.

Now in the combat tables, the Nolikian attacks the Super-Escort at a Factor 15 versus a Factor 13. The roll is a straight 2D >= 7. The DMs were cooked into the design, based on a roll of 2D >= 9 when the factors are matched (Missile vs Dampers, p49). The Zhodani Super-Escort is at a distinct disadvantage, even though it devoted the same resources to defense that the Nolikian devoted to offense.

---

Spitballing now, fewer LBays means a lower attack factor, and that's where you guys think it should be logarithmic or so. HG1 says one bay is allowed per 1,000 tons, which sets a very handy metric.

Say 100 LBays at TL15 gets you a Factor-10 strength, before the size mod, and one ten-ton Bay gets you a Factor-1.

12 = 1500 LBays (150,000t)
11 = 400 LBays (40,000t)
10 = 100 LBays (10,000t)
9 = 40 LBays (4,000t)
8 = 16 LBays (1,600t)
7 = 13 Bays / 7 LBays (640t)
6 = 5 Bays / 3 LBays (250t)
5 = 2 Bays / 1 LBay (100t)
4 = 1 Bay (50t)
3 = 2 SBay (20t)
2 = 1 SBay (10t)
1 = 1 Barbette (3-4t)

 

[mike wightman]

It would go in at the design phase - say you end up with a factor 7 bay due to /ktons - a size 2+ ship would bump that up to a 9 and would get 3 damage rolls on successfully penetrating defences.

Say this size 2 ship is up against a BB size 5 then even though it has a factor 9 battery it gets a -3DM to penetrate defences - less likely to get through. I would keep the bonus damage rolls to speed up play.

 

[robject]

Say this size 2 ship is up against a BB size 5 then even though it has a factor 9 battery it gets a -3DM to penetrate defences

I would say the BB gets a +3 on its defense factor ratings at design time, due to the ship's size. Thus the attack roll is straight.

This is what AD wrought, perhaps inadvertently, when he "decoupled" the attack and defense ratings. It lets us bake both values modified by ship size at design time.

It's not that we can't remember to use a DM. But... I fail to see why we should have to.

That might mean there's something I'm missing here. I recognize that there is flexibility in applying a DM post-design. But I'm failing to understand what makes that so important.



But yes to the second part -- the number of damage rolls don't get modified.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Say 100 LBays at TL15 gets you a Factor-10 strength, before the size mod, and one ten-ton Bay gets you a Factor-1.

12 = 1500 LBays (150,000t)
11 = 400 LBays (40,000t)
10 = 100 LBays (10,000t)
9 = 40 LBays (4,000t)
8 = 16 LBays (1,600t)
7 = 13 Bays / 7 LBays (640t)
6 = 5 Bays / 3 LBays (250t)
5 = 2 Bays / 1 LBay (100t)
4 = 1 Bay (50t)
3 = 2 SBay (20t)
2 = 1 SBay (10t)
1 = 1 Barbette (3-4t)

Don't forget you need a smooth progression from a battleship down to a fighter. And leave room for fighters of different TLs... And have room at the top for BBs of different TLs...

 

[robject]

Don't forget you need a smooth progression from a battleship down to a fighter. And leave room for fighters of different TLs... And have room at the top for BBs of different TLs...

I think, first, to focus on the capital ships. By the time we know how to fit bays and spines and their defenses together, we'll have a good idea of ways to scale down to barbettes and turrets.

That also defers the "point defence" question for later, which is probably a good way to approach things. Because we may not agree on how to use turrets, but I betcha we have a decent concept of how spines "ought" to work and the need for toughness in capitals without gutting riders completely. Maybe they trade back and forth as tech progresses.

So capital ships, from the Ziru Sirka's TL-9 Dominator, to the TL-16 Darrian Whateverator, or the Republic of Regina's TL-17 Warmonger-class Hop Dreadnought.

I can't quite remember, but I think the ZS Dominator were 100,000 250,000 tons. Can anyone recall that?

 

[robject]

Found it. But first, a summary.

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

• Craft tonnages from 100t thru 1,000,000t are valid for ship design, with no restrictions based on TL.
• Small craft (<100t) are not valid for empires without access to TL 12 markets.
• The Early Ziru Sirka is an edge case that requires extra rules. (DEFERRED extra rules!)

THE EMAIL

June 22, 2019, Marc Miller.

There are some basic assumptions for Vilani Empire.

The First Imperium (Early Era)
Their favored ship is the 250,000 ton Dominator, capable of Jump-1 and 1G. It’s a fuel hog, which means that fuel for one jump is more than half its tonnage, call it 50%. Crew is in the hundreds. TL is 8-9-10.

It’s fortunate that the ship can do wilderness refueling.

The Imperium tried many different models, but found that their original Jump-1 technology worked best/reliably only with the Dominator. There’s the expanded version 500,000 ton Imperator, which is essentially a stretched hull.

There are other considerations. They don’t have FusionPlus, so they don’t have small craft as we know them. The minimum practical size for small craft or non-starships is 100 tons. Fighters are 100-tons. I’ll assume in this period, they don’t have Gravity-based drives (Grav, or Maneuver) which leaves them with Rocket and HEPlaR. More fuel guzzling.

This is an edge case. Their TL 9 and TL 10 starships are optimally at 250,000 tons. An age of massive jump tenders and no serious opposition. The fuel rules aren't a "stage effect" proper, but rather that these jump drives are primitive. Also, check out the lack of gravitics. 50% for a Jump-1 and then add in HEPlaR? Ouch.

The First Imperium (Late Era)
They reach a point where they develop Jump-2, and more efficient fuel usage. This stage lasts until they fall. The Interstellar Wars with Earth are still restricted to Jump-2. I’ll assume they develop Grav Drives, early in this period, and Maneuver Drives late in this period, but they are still restricted to minimum 100 tons.

The Late Era is a time of brutal suppression of local cultures, and of technology freeze. Its actually amazing that they improve enough by developing G-Drives and M-Drives.

The encounter with Terrans shakes everything up. In true Terran fashion, Earth develops great variants of the basic concepts.

If we are true to the Imperium boardgame, the Vilani develop workable alternatives to the Dominator, and so can build small starships, different configurations, and alternate ship use strategies. I’ll assume that all happens early in the Later Vilani period.

Late First Imperium is probably where we want to start. I'd say these ships, except for the jump limit, are designed much as any other starships would be on the High Guard continuum. And note this bit:

The Third Imperium
We don’t have true Small Craft until the Third Imperium.

Marc's email makes it clear that Fusion+ (a TL12 (hence 3rd Imperium) technology) is what enables sub-100t craft.

 

[robject]

BRIEF OVERVIEW OF SOME COUNTERS from IMPERIUM

TL 10 Escorts. Principle: Defense >> Offense

These have the lowest attack values. Using a High Guard line instead of an Imperium line, they still have a high screening value without putting a burden on a design system, since they can be in the front line while (e.g.) Battle Riders are deploying in the Reserve.

I'm thinking that perhaps "Escorts" can be widened to include larger things and specialized things (Destroyers?).

TL 10 Gap.

And then there's a gap between Escorts and Light Cruisers. Maybe this is a Destroyer-Escort gap; I don't know. It's a gap where ships don't have big enough primaries to stand in the line of battle, but are perhaps more capable and dangerous than "escorts". Or maybe this is a specialty gap for corvettes.

TL 10 Cruisers. Principle: Defense slightly above Offense.

This ranges from light to heavy, so there's a wide spread from Light, to Medium, to Heavy.

TL 10 Monitors. Principle: Selected Offense = Selected Defense.

Monitors are only good at a few things. Thus they can pile up some batteries and ignore others.

TL 10 Dreadnoughts. Principle: Offense equal or slightly above Defense?

The tiniest, least effective Dreadought is more like a Big Heavy Cruiser. This is the default Imperium dreadnought, which notes that they're just too costly and maintenance-heavy to be useful.

TL 11 Dreadnoughts. Principle: Offense > Defense?

I suggest that there is one TL 11 dreadnought in the Imperium game -- the Imperium's B2. I argue this because it looks like it has superior numbers, but I admit I have a subjective mapping.

 

[robject]

IMPERIUM vs FIFTH FRONTIER WAR

Assume the Dominator is the Ziru Sirka dreadnought of choice at TL 10. The starter dreadnought for the Ziru Sirka in Imperium is a 4-9-8: Excellent missile and screens, but armaments lower than heavy cruisers.

(Actually, the TL 11 Dominator is the one that works. The original was mostly fuel.)

The Tigress. The 6-2-8 Jump-4 battle squadrons in Fifth Frontier War appear to most resemble the Tigress. They have low planetary assault value, high attack value, and very high defensive value. The "6" is likely to be related to the number of spines in the squadron, plus or minus.

Using the Tigress as a counter in Imperium, say against a 12-9-9, I see that:

1. No dreadnought weapon from TL 10-11 has a chance at damaging a Tigress.
2. A Tigress is not designed for planetary assault (?)
3. Despite its (relatively) low value, the Tigress' spine auto-kills any TL 10-11 dreadnought.

If anything, the Tigress should be even more powerful. But by how much? To guesstimate that, I have to go back to Imperium, and compare the units found there with each other.

---

First, the three combat unit types (Escort, Cruiser, Dreadnought) are (I assume) TL 9-10, and follow ratios:

• Cruiser attack values are twice that of Escorts.
• Dreadnought attack values are twice that of Cruisers.

The Combat Results tables are LINEAR (1D), and also follow ratios of attack to defense:

• Beams to screens is a 2:1 ratio of effectiveness. Every pip defeats 2 additional levels of screen.
• Missiles to screens is a 3:1 ratio of effectiveness. Every pip defeats 3 additional levels of screen.
• Note that these ratios are the reasons that combat tables were needed.

Multiply those combat ratios with the attack ratios:

• Cruisers are 4 to 6 times as powerful as Escorts.
• Dreadnoughts are 4 to 6 times as powerful as Cruisers, and 16 to 36 times as powerful as Escorts.

Improved Dreadnoughts, which at best represent TL 11, are incrementally better than Dreadnoughts.

• Up to two improvements happen. We jump from 10-9-7 to 12-9-9, and 4-9-8 to 7-12-9.

At this point, the values just run off the tables.
Thus each TL roughly represents a +5 improvement to the counter's ratings.

Assuming that is so, then TL12 to TL15 would grant +20 points.

• Start with the 12-9-9 and add 20 points to it.
• 15-9-9: 3 points (17 points left)
• 15-9-22: 13 points (4 points left)
• 19-9-22

Okay, so the Tigress could be a 19-9-22 (maybe). That's not as off as I expected.

 

[robject]

Now let's extract a general principle.

• A TL 4 advantage is generally decisive.

But is that true? What about a TL 11 missile swarm against a Tigress?

 

[mike wightman]

I hate to 'argue' canon with its author...
but from the History in the Imperium board game:

Vilani ships after 909 BC had at least twice their previous speed and a vastly enhanced strategic mobility. The Vilani kept the jump-2 drive a jealously guarded secret for millennia: The drive immediately gave the Vilani the weapon they needed to keep the rest of the universe under control.
In 880 BC, after several centuries of sputtering conflict, the lgsiirdi (expressing the will of the Bureaux) launched the Consolidation Wars and committed all of Vland's forces to subjugating the many states on the fringes of the Vilani Empire.
When the wars ended in 476AD, the Vilani had almost tripled the size of their domain...
Vland extensively colonized between 700 BC and 521 AD. The last Consolidation War ended in 476AD. Vland had expanded until no uncolonized civilized states remained on its borders. Beyond those borders were only uncivilized worlds and empty systems.
In 476 AD, the lgsiirdi declared the Ziru Sirka.

So the consolidation wars were fought with jump 2 warships (TL11)
Over three thousand years before they would encounter the Terrans the Vilani had jump 2. The stagnant Ziru Sirka maintained its empire for nearly two thousand years before encountering the Terrans.

Now in FFW there is a rule for shifting fire - a TL15 Tigress BatRon shifts four columns in its favour when firing on the Vilani 'dreadnaught', while the Vilani Batrion shifts fire four columns down.

In HG79 terms the Tigress will have a +4 to every roll while the Vilani is -4 due to computer, the Vilani is TL limited to power plant 5, factor 5 armour and no nuclear dampers or meson screens.

 

[robject]

The Imperium "History" section is more precise. Marc was writing off the cuff, so perhaps we can say that the "Late" Ziru Sirka was more like the "Later" Ziru Sirka. The Consolidation Wars does resemble "The Late Era is a time of brutal suppression of local cultures, and of technology freeze," i.e. 880 BC. Thus Ziru Sirka Stage II begins with "They reach a point where they develop Jump-2, and more efficient fuel usage," ca. 900 BC in other words, and then they begin to consolidate.

---

Yah, the Tigress' shift and Zhodani's -DMs in 5FW sounds like a tech level delta, all righty.

 

[robject]

In HG79 terms the Tigress will have a +4 to every roll while the Vilani is -4 due to computer, the Vilani is TL limited to power plant 5, factor 5 armour and no nuclear dampers or meson screens.

And the Tigress ought to be a monster.

---

Let's say we've got a Zhodani TL 14 battleship at 200,000 tons (call it spine + 170 bays), and the TL15 Tigress at 500,000 tons (call it spine + 430 bays).

There's a difference of 3 levels in max power plant, and therefore in the max maneuver rating, which sounds like a combat-delta DM rather than something pre-computable.

Armor is only a minor delta, although a larger hull might trade some of that extra tonnage for better armor.

---

Without even quantifying which bays go to what, I see the Tigress has 250% the bay power and probably better armor, before even bringing TL into consideration. TL+1 only magnifies that advantage further with better weapons, armor, and also bringing superior drives into the picture.

I don't know if toughness is about all types of defenses, or if it's just the ability of a ship to take inordinate damage and keep on truckin'.

 

[kilemall]

On the defense question, things like PDs of sand/laser/plasma/fusion, repulsors, and of course screen/dampers would need to be quantified. Larger ships would often have backups especially to screen/dampers.

As to armor, always a big question, do you go with no pen/pen like original CT gun combat, or sliding levels of damage like HG and modern MgT gun combat?

And depending on how much effect you bake in with armor, you will need to relook at the rules and deal with the hull surface vs. dtonnage to penalize smaller ships/craft and give big ones their advantage.

 

[mike wightman]

My take on the Tigress vs Zho - the Tigress is size 5 armour 9, while the Zho is size 4 armour 8, the Tigress gets +2 on penetration rolls (computer and size dif) while the Zho is at -2 on all penetration rolls. The Tigress inflicts 6 damage rolls per successful defence penetration while the Zho inflicts only 4.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Why would a Meson T in a Tigress be better than a Meson T in a Kokirrak? I.e. tonnage based to hit and damage?

 

[mike wightman]

It's not, this is for bays/turrets - spinals keep their own rules (but need bonus damage rolls added)

 

[AnotherDilbert]

You're overcomplicating again...