• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

High Guard 3

Originally posted by robject:
Oz,

I like your abstract combat table. Taking your contributions to the Fleet Production thread into consideration, might using FFW as the abstract combat system accomplish the same thing? Or is that too abstract?
FFW (or any similar system we might come up with) is best suited to really large-scale naval combat, where you have literally tens of millions of tons of starships organized into lots of fleets.

The Abstract Naval Combat system I suggested up-topic is more suited to mid-range combat, where you might have a couple of squadrons, or even one small fleet, but not several fleets.

There are elements of each which could be grafted onto the other. I have some ideas on how to give FFW-style combat a little more "flavor."
 
Originally posted by The Oz:
Right now the only thoughts I have along this line are that damage from elements using meson guns should be divided up differently from non-meson gun using elements. I think that damage from meson guns should tend to kill ships and kill the bigger ships first, while non-meson gun damage should tend to damage but not kill ships and should damage and/or kill the smaller ships first.

Maybe some kind of random allocation should be used, with modifers for what did the damage? Whatever is to be used should be able to allow for varying force compositions.
The classic answer is that destroying a target takes twice the combat damage and that the attacker can select whatever targets he likes at double cost.

So if a defender selects a freighter to damage that counts just the freighter's tonnage, but if the attacker selects a battleship to destroy that counts as four times the battleship's tonnage.

What any of this has to do with High Guard escapes me because big spinal mount PAs are also ship killers and it's harder to kill Missile Boats than battleships with Mesons. (Or even hit them with PAs.)
 
Originally posted by The Oz:
Right now the only thoughts I have along this line are that damage from elements using meson guns should be divided up differently from non-meson gun using elements. I think that damage from meson guns should tend to kill ships and kill the bigger ships first, while non-meson gun damage should tend to damage but not kill ships and should damage and/or kill the smaller ships first.

Maybe some kind of random allocation should be used, with modifers for what did the damage? Whatever is to be used should be able to allow for varying force compositions.
The classic answer is that destroying a target takes twice the combat damage and that the attacker can select whatever targets he likes at double cost.

So if a defender selects a freighter to damage that counts just the freighter's tonnage, but if the attacker selects a battleship to destroy that counts as four times the battleship's tonnage.

What any of this has to do with High Guard escapes me because big spinal mount PAs are also ship killers and it's harder to kill Missile Boats than battleships with Mesons. (Or even hit them with PAs.)
 
Yes, Henry, that's the classic "Directed Damage" rule that's been used many times before.

What I am getting at is that HG combat with spinal meson guns tends to kill or cripple big ships first (since the weapons =can= kill or cripple big ships with one penetrating hit, and the enemy's big ships tends to be where his =own= spinal meson guns are).

HG combat =without= spinal meson guns (by your missile boats, for instance) tends to slowly attrit the enemy's weapons while leaving the ships still mobile and capable of retreat (since even small ships can be armored enough to prevent critical/internal hits and damage to maneuver drives). If any ships are killed in this kind of combat, it tends to be the smaller ones that don't have enough armor to prevent auto criticals from spinal PAWs.

For my proposed Abstract Naval Combat system, I would like to have some mechanism to reflect this basic difference in TRAVELLER space combat.
 
Yes, Henry, that's the classic "Directed Damage" rule that's been used many times before.

What I am getting at is that HG combat with spinal meson guns tends to kill or cripple big ships first (since the weapons =can= kill or cripple big ships with one penetrating hit, and the enemy's big ships tends to be where his =own= spinal meson guns are).

HG combat =without= spinal meson guns (by your missile boats, for instance) tends to slowly attrit the enemy's weapons while leaving the ships still mobile and capable of retreat (since even small ships can be armored enough to prevent critical/internal hits and damage to maneuver drives). If any ships are killed in this kind of combat, it tends to be the smaller ones that don't have enough armor to prevent auto criticals from spinal PAWs.

For my proposed Abstract Naval Combat system, I would like to have some mechanism to reflect this basic difference in TRAVELLER space combat.
 
Originally posted by The Oz:
HG combat =without= spinal meson guns (by your missile boats, for instance) tends to slowly attrit the enemy's weapons while leaving the ships still mobile and capable of retreat (since even small ships can be armored enough to prevent critical/internal hits and damage to maneuver drives). If any ships are killed in this kind of combat, it tends to be the smaller ones that don't have enough armor to prevent auto criticals from spinal PAWs.

For my proposed Abstract Naval Combat system, I would like to have some mechanism to reflect this basic difference in TRAVELLER space combat.
If you want to be slightly less abstract then have a counter per battleship (or missile boat squadron) with the following values.

Computer: factor
Defense: A combination of lasers, armor, screens, size, etc.
Nuke: Missile + PA
Meson: Only the big guns count.
and
Evasion: Agility + Size Mod

In addition there are -1, -2, -3, etc counters that are placed on ship counters for Nuke damage while meson damage tends to destroy the ship. (Or at least mission kill it.)

-HJC
 
Originally posted by The Oz:
HG combat =without= spinal meson guns (by your missile boats, for instance) tends to slowly attrit the enemy's weapons while leaving the ships still mobile and capable of retreat (since even small ships can be armored enough to prevent critical/internal hits and damage to maneuver drives). If any ships are killed in this kind of combat, it tends to be the smaller ones that don't have enough armor to prevent auto criticals from spinal PAWs.

For my proposed Abstract Naval Combat system, I would like to have some mechanism to reflect this basic difference in TRAVELLER space combat.
If you want to be slightly less abstract then have a counter per battleship (or missile boat squadron) with the following values.

Computer: factor
Defense: A combination of lasers, armor, screens, size, etc.
Nuke: Missile + PA
Meson: Only the big guns count.
and
Evasion: Agility + Size Mod

In addition there are -1, -2, -3, etc counters that are placed on ship counters for Nuke damage while meson damage tends to destroy the ship. (Or at least mission kill it.)

-HJC
 
Actually I've been working towards a modification of the FFW combat system (as has been seen in The Fleet). I have an idea for something that would serve as a "drop-in" replacement for space combat in FFW but would add more TRAVELLER flavor and give players more options so that space combat wouldn't just be "add up the factors, roll the dice, take the losses."

But you've got the basics of what I have in mind: two different damage systems, one for meson guns and another for missiles and other less powerful weapons.
 
Actually I've been working towards a modification of the FFW combat system (as has been seen in The Fleet). I have an idea for something that would serve as a "drop-in" replacement for space combat in FFW but would add more TRAVELLER flavor and give players more options so that space combat wouldn't just be "add up the factors, roll the dice, take the losses."

But you've got the basics of what I have in mind: two different damage systems, one for meson guns and another for missiles and other less powerful weapons.
 
Originally posted by robject:
Oz,Back to the thread. I've lately been thinking about things Aramis has said in favor of MT vehicle combat. I wonder if it would be meaningful to convert the MT ship weapons tables into a High-Guard-friendly format, while also replacing the HG damage table with pen/dmg rules.


You might want to look here for another take on integrating the weapon ranges and ratings into one unified system, based on MT.

Unified Weapons Tables
 
Originally posted by robject:
Oz,Back to the thread. I've lately been thinking about things Aramis has said in favor of MT vehicle combat. I wonder if it would be meaningful to convert the MT ship weapons tables into a High-Guard-friendly format, while also replacing the HG damage table with pen/dmg rules.


You might want to look here for another take on integrating the weapon ranges and ratings into one unified system, based on MT.

Unified Weapons Tables
 
Originally posted by The Oz:
Actually I've been working towards a modification of the FFW combat system (as has been seen in The Fleet). I have an idea for something that would serve as a "drop-in" replacement for space combat in FFW but would add more TRAVELLER flavor and give players more options so that space combat wouldn't just be "add up the factors, roll the dice, take the losses."
Have you considered adapting the space combat system from "Imperium" or "Dark Nebula"?
I've never played FFW, but I have the rules reprint and the space combat does seem a little sparse. Imperium has separate factors for beams, screens and missiles, range variation like High Guard and makes a stylized attempt to simulate formations and movement. Adding meson guns/screens and back-printed counters might come close to what you're looking for.
 
Originally posted by The Oz:
Actually I've been working towards a modification of the FFW combat system (as has been seen in The Fleet). I have an idea for something that would serve as a "drop-in" replacement for space combat in FFW but would add more TRAVELLER flavor and give players more options so that space combat wouldn't just be "add up the factors, roll the dice, take the losses."
Have you considered adapting the space combat system from "Imperium" or "Dark Nebula"?
I've never played FFW, but I have the rules reprint and the space combat does seem a little sparse. Imperium has separate factors for beams, screens and missiles, range variation like High Guard and makes a stylized attempt to simulate formations and movement. Adding meson guns/screens and back-printed counters might come close to what you're looking for.
 
Yes, I do want to include something that gives the flavor of "beams vs. missiles," but I'm inclined to think more along the lines of adapting the combat system from the old Avalon Hill classics "War at Sea" (WAS) and "Victory in the Pacific" (VITP). As I said earlier, I also want there to be a difference in the effectiveness of beams vs. missiles.

In HG combat, beams (spinal meson guns) tend to kill or cripple ships outright. If a decent spinal meson gun (factor-E or better) hits and penetrates the defenses, the target is almost certain to be killed or crippled.

However, missiles (and other bay/turret weapons) tend to slowly reduce the firepower of the target by numerous Wpn-1 hits on the Surface Explosions table, but rarely kill their target outright; it can usually fall back to the reserve and then jump away since the drives are almost always untouched (this assumes the commander is smart enough to fall back before Fuel-1 hits drain his tanks too much, either).

So what I'm thinking is that in a battle, the two sides line up their squadrons and exchange fire, pretty much the same way it's done in WAS or VITP. There's a die roll (modified by the skills of the Admirals present, if any) to determine what range the combat is at, missile range (long) or beam range (short). At missile range only missiles (Bombardment rating) can be used, while at beam range the commander can use either rating, as he chooses.

Shooting works pretty much as it does in WAS/VITP: each rating point gets you 1d6 to roll, and every "6" is a hit. However, when using missiles, each "6" rolled gets you only one point of damage, which is applied to/reduces only the target's Attack and Bomb ratings, and when both of those are reduced to zero the target is disarmed, but the squadron's ships are still there and can be repaired. Multiple hits add together, of course. When using beams (the Attack rating) each "6" rolled when rolling to hit gets you 1d6 worth of damage which is applied against all three ratings of the target, and when the Damage rating is exceeded the squadron is destroyed.

So missile combat under these rules would disarm ships but not destroy them, making repair more important (and I'd change TankRons into ServeRons that are mobile repair facilities as well as fuel tankers, to allow forward repairs and make those TankRons really valuable). Beam combat vaporizes ships and is really, really destructive.

Of course, there would also be rules for the reserve (you could use the rules from WAS/VITP without much change), suicide attacks/high intensity attacks, etc, etc.

The practical disadvantage to this combat system is that it might require you to keep track of two kinds of danage to a squadron. Luckily every copy of FFW comes with a set of backprinted (white/black) counters for tracking percentage losses of ground units and planetary defenses. Such counters could easily be used for tracking damage to squadrons as well, using the white side for tracking "missile" damage (reading a "10" counter as "1") while the black side could handle "beam" damage.

And yes, the beam and missile damage to the Attack and Bomb ratings would be cumulative, so a 5-3-8 squadron with 1 point of each kind of damage would have effective ratings of 3-1-7.
 
Yes, I do want to include something that gives the flavor of "beams vs. missiles," but I'm inclined to think more along the lines of adapting the combat system from the old Avalon Hill classics "War at Sea" (WAS) and "Victory in the Pacific" (VITP). As I said earlier, I also want there to be a difference in the effectiveness of beams vs. missiles.

In HG combat, beams (spinal meson guns) tend to kill or cripple ships outright. If a decent spinal meson gun (factor-E or better) hits and penetrates the defenses, the target is almost certain to be killed or crippled.

However, missiles (and other bay/turret weapons) tend to slowly reduce the firepower of the target by numerous Wpn-1 hits on the Surface Explosions table, but rarely kill their target outright; it can usually fall back to the reserve and then jump away since the drives are almost always untouched (this assumes the commander is smart enough to fall back before Fuel-1 hits drain his tanks too much, either).

So what I'm thinking is that in a battle, the two sides line up their squadrons and exchange fire, pretty much the same way it's done in WAS or VITP. There's a die roll (modified by the skills of the Admirals present, if any) to determine what range the combat is at, missile range (long) or beam range (short). At missile range only missiles (Bombardment rating) can be used, while at beam range the commander can use either rating, as he chooses.

Shooting works pretty much as it does in WAS/VITP: each rating point gets you 1d6 to roll, and every "6" is a hit. However, when using missiles, each "6" rolled gets you only one point of damage, which is applied to/reduces only the target's Attack and Bomb ratings, and when both of those are reduced to zero the target is disarmed, but the squadron's ships are still there and can be repaired. Multiple hits add together, of course. When using beams (the Attack rating) each "6" rolled when rolling to hit gets you 1d6 worth of damage which is applied against all three ratings of the target, and when the Damage rating is exceeded the squadron is destroyed.

So missile combat under these rules would disarm ships but not destroy them, making repair more important (and I'd change TankRons into ServeRons that are mobile repair facilities as well as fuel tankers, to allow forward repairs and make those TankRons really valuable). Beam combat vaporizes ships and is really, really destructive.

Of course, there would also be rules for the reserve (you could use the rules from WAS/VITP without much change), suicide attacks/high intensity attacks, etc, etc.

The practical disadvantage to this combat system is that it might require you to keep track of two kinds of danage to a squadron. Luckily every copy of FFW comes with a set of backprinted (white/black) counters for tracking percentage losses of ground units and planetary defenses. Such counters could easily be used for tracking damage to squadrons as well, using the white side for tracking "missile" damage (reading a "10" counter as "1") while the black side could handle "beam" damage.

And yes, the beam and missile damage to the Attack and Bomb ratings would be cumulative, so a 5-3-8 squadron with 1 point of each kind of damage would have effective ratings of 3-1-7.
 
I can't say I've played it, but I know of it. Does it use combat mechanisms similar to what I'm talking about?
 
I can't say I've played it, but I know of it. Does it use combat mechanisms similar to what I'm talking about?
 
Originally posted by The Oz:
I can't say I've played it, but I know of it. Does it use combat mechanisms similar to what I'm talking about?
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_5008.html
> Fire is simultaneous for each weapon type (so a
> ship destroyed by beam fire can still fire its
> own beams but can't fire its torpedoes). Roll
> 1d6 for each weapon factor firing and, depending
> on the range to target, score a hit if the roll
> is high enough. Ships take 1, 2, or 3 hits to
> damage; smaller ships are destroyed when
> damaged, while larger ones are step-reduced by
> flipping them over.

-HJC
 
Back
Top