Hiver Ships
- Thread starter atpollard
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TheEngineer
SOC-14 1K
Hi !
Interesting statement, atpollard
IMHO the most important factors for (exterior) ship design should be purpose and physics.
If you want to move thru an atmo, you have to be somehow streamlined.
In space there should be a tendency to minimize surface/volume relation.
At the beginning of technological advancement even the hivers were perhaps forced into some archetypes of construction (just like the concepts "watership" is very similar, regardless at which place on earth you look at).
At higher tech levels, I suppose, there is much more freedom here and cultural aspects become much more visible.
Anyway even a Hiver engineer has to deal with the same physics and the same universe, so technical evolution is likely to point in similar directions.
It would be pretty cool to supply Hivers with a set of different technological achievements and perhaps different design rule. Right now everything somehow comes from the regular TU warehouse shelf...
I totally agree with atpollards statement, that Hiver made object should reflect hiver physiology. Well I would add: for objects, which are thought to interact with a Hivers...so very appropriate for the ships interior ...
As I'm said I'm not so pretty sure how much overweight the cultural aspect could gain over the plain simple technical and tactical needs of space vessels.
regards,
TE
Interesting statement, atpollard
IMHO the most important factors for (exterior) ship design should be purpose and physics.
If you want to move thru an atmo, you have to be somehow streamlined.
In space there should be a tendency to minimize surface/volume relation.
At the beginning of technological advancement even the hivers were perhaps forced into some archetypes of construction (just like the concepts "watership" is very similar, regardless at which place on earth you look at).
At higher tech levels, I suppose, there is much more freedom here and cultural aspects become much more visible.
Anyway even a Hiver engineer has to deal with the same physics and the same universe, so technical evolution is likely to point in similar directions.
It would be pretty cool to supply Hivers with a set of different technological achievements and perhaps different design rule. Right now everything somehow comes from the regular TU warehouse shelf...
I totally agree with atpollards statement, that Hiver made object should reflect hiver physiology. Well I would add: for objects, which are thought to interact with a Hivers...so very appropriate for the ships interior ...
As I'm said I'm not so pretty sure how much overweight the cultural aspect could gain over the plain simple technical and tactical needs of space vessels.
regards,
TE
Hi TE,
Given the physics of the Traveller universe, bridges, crew quarters, engineering, cargo and fuel can be located anywhere within the typical starship. Nothing prevents a maneuver drive at the front of a ship or a bridge as a gondola-like blister on the bottom of a cigar shaped hull.
I agree that a sphere is the most efficient form for a ship and that any race could build a ship in any shape (subject to the reasonable laws of physics). I propose only that a Hiver ship should place a stronger emphasis on defensive survivability with an onion-like layering of spaces to sacrifice less important functions to preserve the more important functions. Given the Hiver requirement for lower but wider spaces than a human and the logical efficiency of a sphere, I thought that a flattened sphere would be a logical shape for Hiver ships – but cannon has already ruled otherwise.
I would still imagine the bridge and life support being located in a maximum survival area of refuge at the core of the ship rather than in a vulnerable position on the skin of the ship. Hivers would probably not place as high a priority on windows as some other species.
Given the physics of the Traveller universe, bridges, crew quarters, engineering, cargo and fuel can be located anywhere within the typical starship. Nothing prevents a maneuver drive at the front of a ship or a bridge as a gondola-like blister on the bottom of a cigar shaped hull.
I agree that a sphere is the most efficient form for a ship and that any race could build a ship in any shape (subject to the reasonable laws of physics). I propose only that a Hiver ship should place a stronger emphasis on defensive survivability with an onion-like layering of spaces to sacrifice less important functions to preserve the more important functions. Given the Hiver requirement for lower but wider spaces than a human and the logical efficiency of a sphere, I thought that a flattened sphere would be a logical shape for Hiver ships – but cannon has already ruled otherwise.
I would still imagine the bridge and life support being located in a maximum survival area of refuge at the core of the ship rather than in a vulnerable position on the skin of the ship. Hivers would probably not place as high a priority on windows as some other species.
Gallowglacht
SOC-12
But Hivers aren't the only race on a hive ship right? Surely the Ithiklur would prefer different designs for passageways than Hivers....
I actually have no idea.
I would point out that the human free trader appears ill designed for many alien races but perfectly reasonable for a human crew. Unless someone can provide something that suggests that Hivers prefer mixed-race crews, I assume that Hiver ships are designed for Hiver crews.
As a practical matter, the ship should accommodate both Human forms and Hiver forms for game playability, but I would imagine that Hiver only ships are common (but not important to adventurers).
I agree with BTL that triangular passages would accommodate both species quite well.
Gruffty
SOC-14 1K
There is guidance on this in AM7 - ships that are to be occupied by more than one race (i.e. a Hiver ambassadorial team with an Ithklur Marine contingent) are built to accommodate the differences. Thus, in the example I gave above, normal floor-to-ceiling heights (as per just about any Traveller ship deck plan) would be built into the design.
It's my opinion that Hivers would build ships to meet the needs of the mission the ship is for.
Gruffty
SOC-14 1K
From the available information in most Traveller books on Hivers, Hivers like tunnels, similiar to the tunnels they co-habit with their Snohls. Snohl's are cylindrical, thus tube (round) corridors would predominate on ships built on for Hiver use. Rooms would be chambers off the "corridors".
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
That makes less sense given actual Hiver body shape and physiology. If the corridors were round then they would have to travel, pretty much down the middle of them (Because they are short and wide) yet their mouths are set up to eat as they pass down the passage floor on the bottom. (Which is why I suggested more of a triangular shape. Wide at the bottom and narrow at the top. A Hiver moving down a passage is about as wide, if not wider, than a human is tall.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
BTW triangular is an efficient shape for building, Round is not.
The only reference to snohls I found in AM 7, was the evolution of proto-hivers and snohls. Once Hivers evolve into an intelligent communal species, I find no further reference to a Hiver-snohl symbiotic relationship.
The idea sounds interesting, but is there data elsewhere to conform this relationship still exists.
Gruffty
SOC-14 1K
You're right, there no *actual* reference to Hivers co-habiting with Snohls once their society had developed into the "nest" culture. However, one thing that is repeated across CT, TNE and GT in relation to the Hiver/Snohl relationship is the phrase "Hivers just feel better with Snohl around". This seems to imply that Hiver still have a valid relationship with the Snohl; but, as you say, it's not explicitly stated anywhere.
Personally I can't see the Hivers crow-barring a Snohl into a ship just so they can feel comfortable on the journey............
Personally I can't see the Hivers crow-barring a Snohl into a ship just so they can feel comfortable on the journey............
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BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
It makes as much sense as trying to get an Ursa onto the Bridge of a Free Trader or a Type-S. Or a Virushi onto any of the standard starships.
Gruffty
SOC-14 1K
AgreedIt makes as much sense as trying to get an Ursa onto the Bridge of a Free Trader or a Type-S. Or a Virushi onto any of the standard starships.
However, my Hiver instincts tell me that, below the part of a Hiver nest building you can see above ground, there are tunnels, within which Snohl and Hiver continue their millenia long relationship, out of sight of younger, less civilised societies/species....
Fungi, anyone?.......
That's good enough for me.
I recall that the Hivers settled on multiple worlds, so they probably found a way to transport them. Humans bred dogs from wolf size to Chihuahua and horses from wolf sized up to Clydesdales. Hivers could have “miniature” snohl as shipboard pets.
Snohl would definitely affect ship design. How do you build a ship so giant worms can tunnel corridors to feed?
Ran Targas
SOC-14 1K
This was my thought long ago when I laid out Hiver versions of a number of standard CT ship types (100dT scout, 200dT freighter, 400dT patrol, etc.). IMTU, the hex based floorplans are what reminded the first humans of bee hives, lending to the name. My designs are decidedly more claustrophobic than human ships (very few windows) and are generally shaped like pumpkin seeds.
Interesting idea. Hivers do have a "front," though. It's where the sensory "hand" is. Now, when a Hiver wants to inspect something closely, it's going to move its eyes near the object, just as we do. This is easier to do if the object is on the same side of the body as the sensory "hand."
Neural limitations are likely to affect how Hiver vision determines "front-ness." Human have a very limited angle in which they have detailed vision. The rest of the visual field is low-resolution, mostly sensitive to movement. I strongly suspect that Hivers would have similar neural limitations. They may be able to see in all directions, but their ability to see detail is certainly far more limited (perhaps only one "eye" has detail vision; perhaps all of the eyes have a small detail field but the brain can only select one at a time to pay attention to...).
On snohl, ship forms, etc.:
"Today, fungus remains the staple of the Hiver diet; fungus growing is a highly developed art. Most buildings retain the beehive shape and large underground tunnel complexes of the original burrowers, but they are constructed by machines; the burrowers (known as snohl) are now reduced to the secondary function of keeping the tunnels clean. Hiver attachment to them is essentially nonrational; they just feel more comfortable with snohl around." (from http://traveller.wikia.com/wiki/Hiver)
TheEngineer
SOC-14 1K
Good thoughts and observations.
With respect to the above statement, humans use their front mounted hands to hold/stabilize an object in front of them while performing a close examination. The easiest way for a Hiver to perform the same act would be to hold an object with its rear ‘hand’ (perhaps resting the object on its back) and rotate its ‘head’ around to look at it. That would make the Hiver ‘front’ equal to a human ‘back’.
On the other hand even Hivers must look in the direction that they are moving (or walk into a lot of walls), so YES Hivers have a front, it is just not nearly as important as a human ‘front’. In terms of psychological importance, I imagine that Hivers have no equivalent to the human concept of ‘the back’ (as in “who cares what that side looks like, it is only the back and no one will see it.”) but rather view every direction as the human equivalent of ‘the side’ with the direction that the primary stalk faces at the moment as “the front”. Thus while the Human concept of ‘front’ is a fixed direction, the Hiver concept of ‘front’ is a variable direction.
What does this mean in practical terms?
I would propose that a Hiver ship is designed to fly in any direction with equal ease. If the cargo to be unloaded is in the ‘forward hold’ then the Hiver ship will dock to the station with the ‘forward hold’ as the front of the ship. If the cargo to be unloaded is in the ‘aft hold’ then the Hiver ship will dock to the station with the ‘aft hold’ as the front of the ship.
Human furniture is typically designed to be placed against a wall and accessed from the side facing away from the wall. Hiver furniture would probably be designed to be ‘used’ from multiple sides with each ‘side’ performing a different function and the entire piece of furniture designed as an object of art (similar but not identical to the Japanese concept of utilitarian objects being beautiful at the same time). An object that is a desk from one side but a chest of drawers from the opposite side and a bed from the top would seem bizarre to a Human but make perfect sense to a Hiver – he can wake up in bed, twist his primary stalk to check for messages while selecting his clothes with another stalk. [EDIT: I assume that Hivers wear clothes.]
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Gruffty
SOC-14 1K
Exactly as I imagine Hiver furniture would be. Although there are some illustrations of Hiver furniture in the various/relevant books. They're weird looking stools, similiar to a toadstool.
Nope, not in the same manner as other races. They wear utility belts/webbing with pouches for various bits of useful technology (such as the infamous TL-15 Hiver mop
), vacc suits in space, combat envirnment suits when needed. A Hiver respirator or compressor mask is actually a hard bubble that encloses the head and is connected to the air tank(s)/compressor unit <Can't remember which book that is from - TNE? G:T?>As for the "front" of a Hiver: Hiver eyestalks can swivel in nearly any direction and its brain can process these images with equal speed and precision. IMTU, Hivers have no problems with up/down/left/right in space/Zero-G because of this and I think this is a reasonable assumption for the OTU. A Hiver can look behind itself whilst walking forward or sideways. Remember that the "rear" limb stalk is primarily used for Shaking Hands so avoid that bit of a Hiver, if at all possible
.
