Honest Avdvice Requested.

[theSea]

Keklas Rekobah --

This is certianly not a situation limited to any particular political/religious group. It is endemic to humans in groups. In order to affirm one's choice of group it is often convenient to ascribe extreme negative characteristics to non-group members or members of alternate or competing groups... "I must be very good because These People(TM) are truely vile and a threat to my faith/race/political cause etc."

Combine that with most people's tendancy to fear what they don't understand and believe whatever pap is fed to them by The Powers That Be(TM) and you get a sad repetative fact of human nature.

As to Ms. Puller's particular irrational quest... as a mother who's just lost a child to suicide I'm sure it was much easier for her to deal with the notion that some sinister force had 'driven' her baby boy to off himself than accept the notion that her kid was just plain f'ed up. For starters the 'Satanic Cult' explanation absolves her of any responsibility as a parent.

Just like the parents who sued Judas Priest because their music was playing on the stereo when their sweet little ones did themselves in... <sarcasm>of course it was the heavy metal. The alcohol and LSD in their systems at the time of death certianly had nothing to do with it.</sarcasm>

For a good take on the whole 'Mazes & Monsters' thing you can do worse that to check this out.

Just good old fashion human nature.

My cr0.02 - YMMV

--Michael

 

[kafka47]

Take the minister to play Odyssey, the free PDF game on this website, it allows lots of potential for good values to be expressed plus allows players to move along quickly toward a successful resolution.

It ought to be the role of the referee that would provide a game in which the players need not have a hack & slack, but variety, so maybe try Murder on Arctrus Station from the CT Adventures book, it is more Agatha Christie than Darmond Hammond.

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

Thanx, people. A few responses...

... My previous post was a rant. I apologize to those who may have been offended by it - although I am not sorry for posting it (no regrets).

... I've downloaded Odyssey. Nicely written - for T20! I run CT, with house mods. Still converting.

... I was at Michigan State University when the "Egbert Incident" occurred. This event and the publicity that surrounded it were what drew me in to the gaming club at MSU called "Brass Dragon". I ended up as the first Faculty/Staff Advisor (FCA) for the club. The need for FCA's was mandated by the reaction of MSU's administration to the "Egbert Incident". This event also cause a campus-wide retrofit of limited access measures to the steam tunnels under MSU.

 

[jzeitlin]

Just a few general comments on the topic...

When I find myself on the periphery - or directly involved, for that matter - in one of those "RP is EEEEEEEEEVILE!" discussions, I try to defuse it through a rational approach.

First, I try to avoid discussing them in terms of genre - "Fantasy" and "Science Fiction" are very nasty hot-button words with many of that crowd, and I think it's ultimately for the same basic reason that RP is*.

I present RP as problem solving, not playing: The participants (not players) are presented with a scenario, resources, and a goal, and they must find a way to achieve that goal with the available resources.

When/if they start in with the "devil worship" malarkey, I point out that the beings in question are generally portrayed as evil, indicating that the the so-called "Christian" cultural assumptions re: good and evil are in effect. For participants to portray believers in these beings is akin to asking them to solve the problem from the other person's point of view - essentially, to ask them to look at the likely motivation of that person, and think about the other side of the question - the side that they will naturally want to argue against. By "working the problem" from the other side, they gain a better understanding of the problem, and will ultimately allow them to present a stronger argument in favor of their side of the question.

But what about those dice? No situation in real life is entirely predictable; the use of the dice is simply a fair way of ensuring that the unpredictability isn't biased.

Magic? Spells? Curses? Different resources that are available. Encourages the participants to "think outside the box", to look for unconventional solutions if conventional ones aren't an option, or aren't effective. They're tools, and within the context of the scenario, can be used properly or improperly. The participant's own moral compass is what should guide their use; the availability of a "magic missile" is no different, fundamentally, than the availability of a gun would be in real life. And just as the gun can be used properly and safely, or it can be misused, so too the "magic missile" - and similarly with any other resource.

But what about the game making someone crazy (e.g., the cases cited in this thread)? With all due respect, problem solving in this realm is no different than problem solving in a counselling session or therapy or social groups or playing house or playing cowboys and indians or cops and robbers. If what happens in this realm is going to adversely affect the participant, it's generally a sign that the participant is troubled outside of this realm, and needs help. Correlation is not causation, and there is a natural tendency to notice the most outré factors in an apparent incident.

Is the system all about violence? No. It's about problem solving. But there are people who see things in very simplistic ways, and those people may set up scenarios so that there are no solutions that avoid violence - but that is a function of the people involved, not of the system itself. If this is a concern, it is necessary to choose carefully who will participate, and in what roles.

>>> If you've gotten this far, chances are you've found a receptive audience; the closed-minded usually don't get beyond the first question. With a receptive audience, you can start discussing issues such as questioning assumptions, free thought, moral dilemmae, and so on, and you can also offer to run them through some one-on-one scenarios with some basic rules to illustrate. Should they agree to participate in a scenario, you can and should have one that is tailored to their "moral compass", but one which does not have an immediately obvious single best solution.

Although it may seem from my explanations above that you are minimizing the issues that appear to be causing the most concern, don't actually minimize them - instead, show that they are legitimate concerns, but not concerns about the game, but about the people instead. The game can be used for good or for ill; what matters is the people involved. Ultimately, the game can be introduced not only as mentally-stimulating recreation, but as a teaching tool as well, encouraging problem solving in several modes.

As an added bonus, if the game is accepted, one can introduce some of the genre literature as well, portraying it as stories about people who are presented with these kinds of scenarios, and who have found their own solutions, and worked their way through their own moral dilemmae.

=-=-=-=-=-
* That reason amounts to "because it encourages people to think, and to question their assumptions". If I detect that this is in fact the motivating attitude, I bail pronto - you can't argue with a closed mind.

 

[Vargas]

Outstanding Sir, simply outstanding. An extremely wel thought out, welll written response.

 

[campbell]

Outstanding Sir, simply outstanding. An extremely wel thought out, welll written response

that is the mistake that you and every player on the side of games are not evil is making you are responding to a situation with rational thought and logic where the other side is armed with emotion.

chances are you can't change their inbuilt beliefs and in trying you are only causing them to dig in deeper. your opinion their opinion, we must agree to disagree.

why judge them because they have a different viewpoint then you do

 

[womble]

Campbell said:

"...mistake that you and every player on the side of games are not evil is making you are responding to a situation with rational thought and logic where the other side is armed with emotion.

"...chances are you can't change their inbuilt beliefs and in trying you are only causing them to dig in deeper..."

However, there's a small chance you can change their beliefs about roleplaying because they are not "inbuilt" they're learned and can be refuted. If you have a motivation to do so (a compadre you'd like to include in the fun f'rex, or the guardian thereof), you're losing nothing by trying except the time spent. Zero cooperation don't get any less...

 

[campbell]

then the best way is not by arguing but by showing them. invite the compadre to watch you playing and if its for them then they can decide for themselves. and alternativly ask them to pray about it. one of the best bits for me in the new testament is when paul is shown in a dream a vast banquet of forbidden (for a jew) foods and told to eat. his response is he cant and he is then told that what he eats isnt going to affect his soul.

 

[Rover]

Althogh it's not about traveller, I strongly reccomend you look at http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp

You will shake your head in disbelife!

And then for a laugh read.

http://www.rpglibrary.org/inspiration/darkdungeons/intro.html

It gives a Mystery Science 3000 spin on the first link. Be sure keep clicking next page to read it all.

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

I don't know who first uttered this quote, but it is well worth remembering:

Reason alone cannot be used to remove prejudice from man, for it is not reason alone that places prejudice within man.

Prejudice is most common among those with limited imagination and creative ability. Therefore, it is inherently more common among non-creative people who consistantly have difficulty trying to connect with creative people.

I've said this before and I'll say it again...

WHERE THE SMEG IS MY SMEGGIN PIZZA?! Dominion's doesn't deliver to this subsector anymore, or what? Aren't my Imperial credits good enough? What the smeg?

Thank you.

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by hirch duckfinder:
sorry , this is not going to help your situation at all but i am curious ; why on earth do these people see anything wrong with rpgs? from this side of the water this seems absurd . its a game . ( people that irrational are worrying , who knows where they will turn their blind bigotry next ) .

The problem stem from D&D's use of magic, demons, and immoral actions like rape, pillage, and murder. Besides the prohibitions on magic, fortune telling and demon worship there is the concern about desensitizing and acceptance of those actions. It is similar to the issue about the effects of violent video games, movies, and music on. It just has a strong spiritual angle.

Do I believe there is a potential problem? Yes. If you accept the notion that certain imagery, both audio and visual, can project negative sterotypes and hate then what messages will be presented in an activity that requires the players to "act" out?

This view is backed by events in the past and present. Many have used the media to project various hateful memes*, including equating some groups as vermin and subhuman. Probaly the sickest is when these memes are taught in schools and summer camps.+


* Memes - a cognitive or behavioral pattern that can be transmitted from one person to another. Though the above definition is from GURPS: Transhuman Space, memetics, the study of memes propagation, is a growing field.

* The last is what is happening to the Palistinian children. They are taught Jews use the blood of babies for some of thier rituals. At summer camps they are trained to be homicide bombers and to view past ones as heros. They even had trading cards.

 

[Zutroi]

================================================
The problem stem from D&D's use of magic, demons, and immoral actions like rape, pillage, and murder. Besides the prohibitions on magic, fortune telling and demon worship there is the concern about desensitizing and acceptance of those actions. It is similar to the issue about the effects of violent video games, movies, and music on. It just has a strong spiritual angle.
===============================================

2 observations:
#1, in the experience of myself and every long-term gamer I know, the VAST majority of D&D games are good v. evil, with the players representing good! What's the Freakin Problem!!

#2 "A society that burns books will next burn people." A shot of 15 year old single malt to the first person to identify the speaker.
Hint - Think 1940's

 

[FANTASYFAN1968]

Lots of good points in this thread. I'd like to point out, as someone who is only now examining his own personal beliefs after years of being told what I "had" to believe, that there are some folks out there who will follow the "party line" on any given subject simply because someone they trust has told them it's the Truth. Sadly, some of these people will never be convinced otherwise, as it is often easier to be told what to think than to make decisions for oneself.

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

"... it is often easier to be told what to think than to make decisions for oneself."

- LCDR J.R. Sinclair III, IMPINSNAV

"All lies in jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."

- P. Simon, Bard & Philosopher

Yes, it's true. I think the modern psychobabble-ists call it "Comfort Zoning." It's much easier to believe a simple lie than a complicated truth (Hey! Another worthwhile quote!). Especially when the lie re-inforces one's own suspicions or provides an excuse for avoiding anything different.

Now I'm running into the same thing from the other side - gamers who refuse to join in an RPG with "... any of those religious nuts."

True, swearing and 'rough language' would be discouraged; yes, graphic descriptions of an opponent's death would be less detailed; and certainly, it must be made clear when one player is addressing another player en personna (character-to-character) or player-to-player.

Just as I would expect an evangelist to avoid handing out Chik Tracs and mounting a soapbox to rail against simulated violence and death during a game session, so would I also expect non-evangelicals to do their part to keep the peace, as well. Making the whole effort geared toward...

"The most fun for the most players while playing Traveller!"

With diverse backgrounds and points of view, it becomes more interesting and avoids the monotony of players whose perspectives on the universe are all the same.

 

[mad13142000]

Originally posted by LCDR J. R. Sinclair III:
I'd like to point out, as someone who is only now examining his own personal beliefs after years of being told what I "had" to believe, that there are some folks out there who will follow the "party line" on any given subject simply because someone they trust has told them it's the Truth. Sadly, some of these people will never be convinced otherwise, as it is often easier to be told what to think than to make decisions for oneself.

But I thought that the whole point of Christ's teaching was that a relationship with God is a personal one, unfettered by trapings of the temple. I mean, the whole
'Upon this rock'
thing was all about not needing to build a huge church/cathedral/temple/mosque...
to be able to say hi to God. As someone to have survived Tulsa, I have a slight problem with those who miss the forest for the trees. I've met many who would be happy to burn books, hurt people, do ANYTHING to enforce the supremacy of their beliefs. Current political troubles in the Mid-East prove this...Problem is they are totally missing what was actually said or done to create the religion they profess in the beginning. Jew, Christian, and Muslum all believe in the same God, all have points in their literature to the effect of peace is the way to salvation, but all tend to view the individual quotes to justify killing or oppresion of the oposition, or even something as trivial as playing a game...

oh well....
-MADDog

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

Try telling a person who feeds his or her family from the proceeds of a two-hour feelgood session every seventh morning that the trappings of religion are un-necessary due to the fact that everyone is entitled to his or her own personal relationship with a Higher Power (or not).

(Wow. All in one breath, and an ecumenical ending, too!)

Anybody have a preacher profession template for Traveller, as per the "Shephard" character from the "Firefly" TV series? Thanx.

 

[Mythmere]

For T20, a preacher would probably be a professional, using the entertainer rules to determine speaking ability/effects. That would be for "preaching." Also, the academic class would be workable for someone more focused on theology than on delivering the word. But I think the professional would be the more workable class in an adventuring setting.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

This may be trite of me, My Lords... but isn't organized religion the most played RPG in the world? It seems to be OK for Born Agains and other types to talk about Demons and Devils and how thier evil is on the land... why is it so bad to do the same in a (sorry, way more fun and not quite as scary) context of RPGs? Is their image of such things more acceptable for some reason? I had a history teacher that sure was psyched when I brought in a copy of "Dieties and Demigods" to class... a very refreshing reaction indeed...

The people that have (and try to generate) such a negative view of this hobby simply do not know what they are talking about.

Perhaps its the wandering scout in me, but I have yet to run across any Real Live Demons, Leprechauns, Goblins, Vampires, Etc. in my much vaunted travels. I think they mean it in an allegorical sense, hopefully. My knee jerk reaction topeople that talk seriously of such things is to put a straightjacket on them, but alas, that is my personal view.

Originally Posted by George Boyett, Archduke of the Reactionary Militia

The problem stem from D&D's use of magic, demons, and immoral actions like rape, pillage, and murder. Besides the prohibitions on magic, fortune telling and demon worship there is the concern about desensitizing and acceptance of those actions. It is similar to the issue about the effects of violent video games, movies, and music on. It just has a strong spiritual angle.

Do I believe there is a potential problem? Yes. If you accept the notion that certain imagery, both audio and visual, can project negative sterotypes and hate then what messages will be presented in an activity that requires the players to "act" out?

This view is backed by events in the past and present. Many have used the media to project various hateful memes*, including equating some groups as vermin and subhuman. Probaly the sickest is when these memes are taught in schools and summer camps.+


* Memes - a cognitive or behavioral pattern that can be transmitted from one person to another. Though the above definition is from GURPS: Transhuman Space, memetics, the study of memes propagation, is a growing field.

* The last is what is happening to the Palistinian children. They are taught Jews use the blood of babies for some of thier rituals. At summer camps they are trained to be homicide bombers and to view past ones as heros. They even had trading cards.


So what's better? A small part of the population being desensitized by wicked gaming products, or a vast majority watching Brittany shake her num nums?

People that can be swayed into "amoral" action by such things as RPGs and Comics do not have a firm grip on sanity or reality in the first place. The issue is Mental Illness in that case, not RPGs. Don't burn the kid's books (I had a friend that this happened to, really, he turned out real normal...(Sarcasm)) Take him to a Doctor.

There IS indeed a potential problem when children are not taught by thier parents to be able to discern Reality from Make Believe. I wish that people would stop blaming the products (that they willingly buy) for thier sloppy and inattentive parenting skills...

As to this "Memes" business, Lord George, its called brainwashing, something which just doesn't happen <GOD BLESS AMERICA AND ALL ITS ARMAMENTS> in the real world as effectively as most people think. There are precedents, yes, but they are <DONALD RUMSFELD IS THE KINDEST MAN ALIVE> most often finite in thier scope of power. Blast! Why do I keep getting these confounded headaches?

Is the Knife-In-The-Teeth Arab Barbarian a meme too? Interesting that you bring up summer camp, My nephew just came back from one (he is ten) and he returned with many interesting political statements about current events and our current enemies... His mother must have inadvertently sent him to Hitler Youth Summer Camp or something...

Training to be a suicide bomber is "normal" for that culture of deperation. (the mideast in general) Its the same line of thought that propels our youngsters into the service and (in the old days, at least) into body bags. Funny how humans are the same when the trappings are removed. I even have "Operation Desert Storm" Trading Cards on my desk... (George Bush the Elder is my favorite, of course)

I can only hope that this perception of how better we Americans are than the rest of humaniti will be dispelled soon...

 

[Falkayn]

Originally posted by MADDog:
But I thought that the whole point of Christ's teaching was that a relationship with God is a personal one, unfettered by trapings of the temple. I mean, the whole
'Upon this rock'
thing was all about not needing to build a huge church/cathedral/temple/mosque...
to be able to say hi to God.

I've stayed away from this discussion because I'm aware that even amongst Christians, beliefs differ with regard to this sort of thing, but I'd like to stick up for 'organised religion' (at least the Christian kind) for a minute.

The New Testament is full of references to the importance of meeting together as believers - to encourage each other, pray for each other, disciple each other, and just help one another out. It also talks extensively about the way Jesus gives different people grace to perform different roles in the church (apostles, pastors, prophets, teachers, evangelists), how to raise money for worthwhile causes, and how to lead a congregation. So it seems fairly 'official' that we should be organised - New testament churches were often huge, with thousands of people attending them.

Now personally, as someone who is committed to attendance at a local church, I find that my regular commitment helps me maintain my personal walk with God. Being part of the body of Christ, being one of his sheep, means being in fellowship with other believers. Sometimes that's inconvenient, sometimes it's a royal pain, and sometimes I don't make it to church - but I am part of that local body of believers, and that helps me - a lot.

Also, consider this: If Jesus' main point was a personal relationship with God through himself, then why did he send out his 12 disciples and the 'seventy-two' to preach on his behalf?

I think it was because His message was what was important, not just his person. That's why the church was always supposed to survive his death as an organised group, not just a bunch of individual followers.

About roleplaying: I really enjoy roleplaying and started it way before I became a Christian, but over the years I have had a few friends go weird due in no small part to their roleplaying (and often due to drugs, depression, etc. too). I disagree with 99% of what the critics of roleplaying say, but I would not get a friend into roleplaying without encouraging them to not getting too lost in a character, situation or event - at the end of the day it is a game, and having FUN is the point.

 

[Jame]

What can I say aside from what I've said already? But I'd like to pose a question: how would you portray a religion when you know one of your players is anti-religion or atheist, and another is deeply religious?