How big a deal is the Starburst for Extreme Heroism?

[david.wendelken]

I've always viewed the Starburst for Extreme Heroism (SEH) as the equivalent of the Congressional Medal of Honor (CMH), the Victoria Cross (VC), i.e., the nation's highest military award.

Aramis feels that "the SEH is more akin to a Service Cross*; the MCG to a Silver Star**, and the MCUF to a Bronze Star***. The equivalent to a CMH would be an SEH with an accompanying Knighthood in the Order of the Emperor's Guard or the Order of Heroes... Or even joining the baronetage or baronage†

*Distinguished Service Cross, Navy Cross, or Air Force Cross
** or a Combat DSM or DDSM, which are higher than the SS
*** or a DFC+V, or a NAMCM, or a LOM+V
† probably sans fief. Tho' if important enough, yeah, add the fief."

I feel that the job of the imperial nobility is to provide loyal leadership with sufficient authority to get things done despite a bureaucracy's inbred attempt to do "what we've always done" instead of what is now needed.

That's quite a different job from being a hero on the battlefield.

What do you all think?

 

[david.wendelken]

As an historical example of my point, there were eleven Victoria Crosses awarded at the Battle of Rorke's Drift, a particularly hellish fight for both sides.

The majority of the recipients in that battle would never, EVER, have been made members of the peerage. They sure were heroes, but they weren't peerage material.

Incidentally, according to one source there have been 1357 Victoria Crosses awarded since 1856. (It might not be fully up-to-date with the current hostilities, but it's bound to be reasonably close.) Only three individuals had received two VCs apiece.

There were 19 double awards of the Congressional Medal of Honour, but a second medal has been forbidden for over 90 years.

 

[aramis]

The Imperial Russian rewards for rank included noble title; the Imperial Russian system is a far better match to the mechanics of the CT, MT, and MGT rules than the British is.

But the Service Cross is, in fact, a better fit to the VC than the MoH; UK military knighthoods do exist; The Order of the Bath has both a civil and a military division; the military is awarded for military action. Most military inductees have had the VC.

In fact, the requirements, according to the Wikipedia entry, for the Companion of the Bath: "CBs must be of the rank of Lieutenant Commander, Major or Squadron Leader, and in addition must have been mentioned in despatches for distinction in a command position in a combat situation. Non-line officers (e.g. engineers, medics) may be appointed only for meritorious service in war time.[68]"

Further the Royal Order of Victoria could be awarded for military actions to the direct benefit of the crown or the royal family.

http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/Honours/OrderoftheBath.aspx describes the Bath thusly: "The Order of Bath is mainly awarded to officers of the Armed Services, as well as to a small number of civil servants. "

http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/Honours/MilitaryHonoursandAwards/MilitaryHonoursandAwards.aspx states: "Members of the Armed Forces may be considered for the military divisions of The Order of the British Empire. Military officers may also be considered for the military divisions of The Order of the Bath. "

Heck, the Dutch Crown just knighted an officer for valor.

 

[Supplement Four]

I've always viewed the Starburst for Extreme Heroism (SEH) as the equivalent of the Congressional Medal of Honor (CMH), the Victoria Cross (VC), i.e., the nation's highest military award.

Aramis feels that "the SEH is more akin to a Service Cross*;

In my view, you are more correct than Aramis. I've always played the SEH as if it were the CMH. Plus, it's very hard to get, statistically speaking.

 

[shield]

I would agree, its a VC equivalent. Remember the Imperial Navy named a class of cruisers after SEH holders, so it must be held in pretty high regard (and not be that common)

Cheers
Richard

 

[sabredog]

For my game I introduced the Imperial Cross to be the equivalent of the VC or CMH. It can be earned through service to the Terran Empire during the course of an adventure or campaign, but you can't get it generating a character since under the requirements of "above and beyond the call of duty while exposing oneself to near certain death" means that it almost always a posthumous award.

It also comes with a Knighthood in the Order of the Imperial Shield - which is specifically for recipients of this medal or is granted by Imperial Decree for some extraordinary personal service for the Empire.

It gives those players who want to get involved in some military escapade something to work for, and on a couple of occasions in the last 30+ years of game play players have earned it, but in neither case did they survive the experience. But in both instances they did save hundreds of colonists who were being evacuated off a world under assault.

These two stayed behind while the ships were being loaded, giving up their seats, and manned RP Fusion guns to hold back a neobarbarian horde fighting it's way across the starport. As the ship was finally lifting, the crew could see the two gunner positions being overrun and the characters fighting hand to hand with bayonets on their ACR's along with the few Imperial Line Marines that had formed a laager with some baggage trucks and the hover IFV's the RP-guns were mounted on.

The rest of the players were the crew on the evac ship, and they were awarded the SEH. But the other two went down in the grand tradition of Rorke's Drift, Isandlwana, Jagranath (famous last stand IMTU), and the HMS Birkenhead combined as was read out to the group survivors by the Emperor during the award ceremony. As was the poem "A Soldier n' Sailor Too".

 

[david.wendelken]

Great story, and the two definitely deserved it.

I did some checking on the CMH. It is "often" awarded posthumously. "Often" is not quite the same word as "Usually".

It appears that 618 of 3448 CMHs awarded were issued posthumously. That's 18%.

Initially, the VC was, by policy, not awarded posthumously. So only the "lucky few" got the award for the first few decades of the VC.

 

[Commander Truestar]

Great story and background for your thoughts.
But that, not withstanding, I still feel that the SEH = the CMH, the MCG = the Silver star and the MCUF = the Bronze Star

Of course, this also shows there is more than one way to do anything in Traveller and your ideas certainly are good if anyone wants to go their own route like you did.

Marc

For my game I introduced the Imperial Cross to be the equivalent of the VC or CMH. It can be earned through service to the Terran Empire during the course of an adventure or campaign, but you can't get it generating a character since under the requirements of "above and beyond the call of duty while exposing oneself to near certain death" means that it almost always a posthumous award.

It also comes with a Knighthood in the Order of the Imperial Shield - which is specifically for recipients of this medal or is granted by Imperial Decree for some extraordinary personal service for the Empire.

It gives those players who want to get involved in some military escapade something to work for, and on a couple of occasions in the last 30+ years of game play players have earned it, but in neither case did they survive the experience. But in both instances they did save hundreds of colonists who were being evacuated off a world under assault.

These two stayed behind while the ships were being loaded, giving up their seats, and manned RP Fusion guns to hold back a neobarbarian horde fighting it's way across the starport. As the ship was finally lifting, the crew could see the two gunner positions being overrun and the characters fighting hand to hand with bayonets on their ACR's along with the few Imperial Line Marines that had formed a laager with some baggage trucks and the hover IFV's the RP-guns were mounted on.

The rest of the players were the crew on the evac ship, and they were awarded the SEH. But the other two went down in the grand tradition of Rorke's Drift, Isandlwana, Jagranath (famous last stand IMTU), and the HMS Birkenhead combined as was read out to the group survivors by the Emperor during the award ceremony. As was the poem "A Soldier n' Sailor Too".

 

[sabredog]

But that, not withstanding, I still feel that the SEH = the CMH, the MCG = the Silver star and the MCUF = the Bronze Star

Marc

I agree, but I made the Imperial Cross because too many characters were generated (IMHO) that were wearing the equivalence of Silver Stars and the CMH.

And aside from that there are also medals that are almost, but not quite, CMH's other than the Silver Star (it's only the 3rd highest), ie., Navy Cross, the Distinguished Service Cross are two examples of the second highest medals.

So IMTU I figured since the Service Crosses are the ones just under the MoH, and the Silver and Bronze Stars are 3rd and 4th...then those were covered by the SEH, MCG, and MCUF respectively. And this resulted in the Imperial Cross being specially made to represent service and self-sacrifice in the highest tradition of the Empire.

 

[aramis]

The biggest flaw in the CMH comparison: The CMH can only be earned once. (under the current rule, at least); the SEH and the VC can be earned multiple times, as can the US Navy Cross, US DSC, and the Air Force Cross.

Another thing to remember: The UK's Victoria Cross is higher in precedence than the military Knighthoods of the Companions of the Bath and the Order of the British Empire...

And for S4.... The SEH, at least in MT Advanced, CT, and T20, is not that hard to get...

MT has 1/36 of Raid assignments for combat arms will make one without taking survival DM's (Raid Inf/Cav/Arty is Surv 6+ and Deco 6+); commandos have a 1/12 on raid duty (Surv 6+ and Deco 5+).
If you're not poltrooning... Poltroon by 1 point, and those go to 1/12 and 1/6 respectively....

For infantry and commandos, raids are 1/12 of all assignments... so about 1/(12*36)=1/432 of the Infantry and 1/(12*12)=1/144 of the commandos should have an SEH 1/2 way through term 1... 1/48 of commandos should end their 1st term with an SEH without survival DM's; 1/144 of infantry.

CT Bk 4 has the same rate; marines on raid are also in the same rate as infantry.

The Bk 5 and MT Advanced Navies are better... Line: 1/36 chance of battle, 1/36 chance sans poltroonery of getting an SEH as a line... 1/432 line or crew will have one by the end of term 1.

T20 has Marine and Army raid (1/20) having a 4+ deco (and needing a 14 then for an SEH) for 1/58th of all 1st term Marine and Army characters having an SEH. Sailors, Flyers & navy have a 16+ needed for SEH on battle for 1/80th of 1st term sailors, flyers and Navy.


The SEH is more common, running the CT and MT numbers, in imperial service than the Bronze Star is in the US....

So, if you're running it like a VC or SEH, well... consider than in CT, MT, or T20, just about every regiment should 3-4 floating around... and most capital ships should have 2-3 aboard....

 

[Commander Truestar]

The biggest flaw in the CMH comparison: The CMH can only be earned once. (under the current rule, at least);

Remember, that is an artificial limit put in place after the award was created(and there are historic figures who earned more than one before the limit was imposed). As a result, this is more a view of the differences between The US and The Third Imperium than it is a comparison of the awards. But that is my opinion

[SNIP]

Another thing to remember: The UK's Victoria Cross is higher in precedence than the military Knighthoods of the Companions of the Bath and the Order of the British Empire...

This is one of the most valid points for your view point. It is very correct and gave me some serious thought before I settled on my POV. I admit, my initial POV was based on a US-Centric vision as I was an American High Schooler. But I learned, and as I did I had to consider things like the stature of the CMH in a non-Feudal society vs the Victoria Cross and its status in the society that gave it rise.
I also look at the peerage of England through the looking glass of my membership in the SCA and my participation in a "less august" modern Peerage(if you will).
I decided that too many of the Peerages in modern Feudal governments are being watered down by the entry of the celebrity to the roles held not just by hereditary heirs but the historically included, too often destructive or self-aggrandizing wealthy. In the end, I saw the SEH as a model for stating, "You are not one of those aristocrats who may or may not be of any worth but still hold title. You are a true Hero. Your award is your title, and stands outside the panoplay of titles Imperial or local. It marks you as beyond many of them as even the greatest Noble title does not make a hero...Will, Dedication, Bravery and Selfessness do. As great as they may be, you are a Hero and, in some ways, rise higher than them.

Imagine the driving power of that on the ruled...

And for S4.... The SEH, at least in MT Advanced, CT, and T20, is not that hard to get...

And that is for us, the GM's to deal with, as a House rule
In my Traveller gaming, and not IMTU as that has changed over the past 30 yrs since I bought my little black box, I have rolled up hundreds of characters(recently sold a few off to an author friend). Only one of those that I have rolled up or supervised the rolling up of, has won an SEH(and Ironically that is one of the characters in my F2F monthly game). Your numbers are correct though

 

[far-trader]

...The SEH, at least in MT Advanced, CT, and T20, is not that hard to get...

To which I would counter...

...for Player Characters.



I think it a fallacy to equate character generation with the general population of the Imperium. Despite Traveller char gen being one of regular joes and not super heroes I think Player Characters as generated are still beyond the norm. They begin their careers just like every other person in the Imperium but they soon diverge, and often significantly. They are driven by something that makes them different. They take risks most don't. And those who survive are rewarded for those risks. Player Characters are special. And any Non-Player Characters generated with the same rules is also special. All imo of course.[FONT=arial,helvetica][/FONT]

 

[aramis]

Except, Dan, the rules are fairly clear that there is no distinction made between PC and NPC other than motivation and a much wider range of careers available.

The pregen NPCs section (p157) in TTB makes note of the following (color added for emphasis):

This list of pre-generated characters is intended to fill the referee's requirement for characters (especially patrons) on the spur of the moment. Each has been generated in accordance with the character generation rules, and is ready for use. They are numbered consecutively, and the referee may select any specific character that meets the required purpose. The list of thugs and brigands fulfils the need for easily available but less fully defined characters.​

That's pretty damned clear that significant NPC's use the character generation system; S1: 1001 Characters and S4: Citizens of the Imperium have extensive NPC lists for EXACTLY the same reason.... NPCs generated using the Character Generation system.

Also, on p 122, Basic Traveller Activities (color mine for emphasis, Bold original):

Generate Characters: Use the chapter on characters to generate characters from the six services, complete with individual characteristics and personal skills. The challenge to create an excellent character, and then muster-out before failing a survival or aging throw makes this an interesting and intriguing activity, especially solitaire. Keep records of the characters generated for use later in adventures, as non-player characters and as random person encounters.​

In fact, two editions make a clear NPC-PC distinction... MT and TNE. In MT, the distinction is that quick NPC's have a generation system giving UPP's and "Significant Skills"... but it makes the following:

NON-PLAYER CHARACTERS
Player characters will encounter people not manipulated by another player. These may be thugs or assailants, potential hirelings or patrons. Their skills and abilities must be determined by you. You may use the Quick NPC procedure to end up with an NPC in a hurry or character generation to create a full-fledged character. Most new Traveller players spend time generating characters. You can save these characters for future use as non-player characters.
(MT RM p39)​

In other words, significant NPC's should be generated as PCs; the CGen mechanics are representative of the norm for those careers.

TNE actually makes most NPCs explicitly and mechanically inferior to PC's, and makes note the PC Generation rules can be used for major NPC's, but all non-major NPCs shouldn't.

So if you're talking TNE, Dan, yes, it's explicit in TNE that the CGen rules are for PC's. Explicitly not CT nor MT, which explicitly state the CGen rules should be used for detailed NPCs.

 

[rancke]

Except, Dan, the rules are fairly clear that there is no distinction made between PC and NPC other than motivation and a much wider range of careers available.

But did the authors realize the ramifications of these rules and intend for the logical implications to be accurate reflections of "reality"? I sincerely doubt it. I think they just saw it as a convenient way to ease the work of making up NPCs. Did they really intend social status on all Imperial worlds to be distributed along a bell curve with 3% being SS 2 and 3% being Imperial nobles -- 8% knights and nobles? And even if they did, is this an idea that works or one that ought to be dropped like a piece of hot coal? These are the rules that have Imperial barons serving as marine privates, navy gunners, and customs inspectors. The sooner these extremely silly outliers of the system are ignored and forgotten, the better, IMO.

As for the original question, GT:Ground Forces has this to say:

"The Starburst is given only for the most extreme acts in the service of the Imperium. The act has to be without any regard for personal safety or survival, and against overwhelming odds. The list of winners of the Starburst is full of soldiers who died earning the honor." [p. 52]

GF also has five citations for winners of the SEH, and they're definitely VC/CMH stuff.


Hans

 

[aramis]

The rules are the rules... and they say NPC's who are detailed are done using the same rules as PC's. And those make it clear that the 3I gives out far more SEH's than the UK does VC's, and the US does MoH's or even the service crosses. Is it broken? Yup. But the setting itself is broken, too.

And, until T20 and GT, the nature of the citations was NOT in evidence.

 

[david.wendelken]

The rules are the rules... and they say NPC's who are detailed are done using the same rules as PC's. And those make it clear that the 3I gives out far more SEH's than the UK does VC's, and the US does MoH's or even the service crosses. Is it broken? Yup. But the setting itself is broken, too.

And, until T20 and GT, the nature of the citations was NOT in evidence.

The rules are not broken. The statistics on earning these awards are not wrong for character generation rules in an RPG.

They are wrong for real life, but they are not wrong for an RPG game.

Why? Because the more interesting the people the characters interact with are, the more interesting the STORY is. The statistics are right for developing GOOD STORIES. That's why Traveller is still around, by the way.

Would Sherlock Holmes detective stories have been interesting had his cases been like the following:

Timothy O'Leary, a known alcoholic with anger management issues got drunk, got angry, and in front of witnesses bludgeoned the victim to death, then sat down and had a good drunken cry over his newly dead best friend.

Heck no! We need master minds, brilliant operators, highly trained and motivated opponents to make for good stories. We don't need opponents who are unmotivated ex supply clerks who are so slack-jawed they can't even get a job at SpaceMart, so they steal stuff from the local all night convenience store and leave their keys and driver's license on the counter as they run off.

Where's the heroic story in that?

 

[rancke]

The rules are the rules... and they say NPC's who are detailed are done using the same rules as PC's. And those make it clear that the 3I gives out far more SEH's than the UK does VC's, and the US does MoH's or even the service crosses. Is it broken? Yup. But the setting itself is broken, too.

That's one opinion. My opinion is that if it's broken, it should be fixed. It's true that sometimes it can be difficult for any two Traveller fans to agree on whether something is broken and even more difficult to agree on how to fix it, but that's what Marc Miller and his minions are for when it comes to the OTU and each referee when it comes to his own TU.

And in this case you even agree that it's broken. Why would you want to preserve something that's broken, let alone rely on it for further world-building?

And, until T20 and GT, the nature of the citations was NOT in evidence.

But now, after T20 (I didn't know that, BTW) and GT, they are in evidence.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

Hmm, I was sure there was an earlier mention (by MT at least) of it being "the Imperium's highest award" but I could be misremembering. And I suppose such a statement wouldn't rule out it being rather common as such go either

Supp 9 does say "The Gionetti class light cruiser is named exclusively for posthumous recipients of the Imperial Starburst for Extreme Heroism." To me that suggests awarding is a rare enough occasion even posthumously. How many 30kton Gionetti class light cruisers does the Imperium have? Enough of them?

Anyway, it is a MTU call to a degree imo. I see the "rules" for NPC creation more as a suggestion of one way to do it. More's the pity (again imo) that it is/was seen as a hard rule by so many when it works better for NPCs the characters are meant to have a relationship with. Special NPCs. For "redshirts" Str, Dex, End and Weapon-1 were usually enough. Bystanders didn't even need that. As far as decorations and such I'd probably be more likely to just choose that for NPCs based on the scenario.

Just throwing ideas out there, I'm sure I've spoken for both sides on this issue at one time or another

 

[aramis]

There should, assuming the CGen rules apply to all military NPCs, be about 10% of the SNCOs of the Army Infantry, and almost half of the Commando SNCOs, with an SEH, and about 60% with MCG's, and many of them should have a second... and that's without being Risky. Then again, only about 10% will have survived being a career NCO...

That said, that's probably 50-5000 SNCOs per subsector (depending upon density of the population) and up to a couple dozen Gianetti's per subsector.

So getting an SEH probably merely puts one into the pool.... I suspect that it likely would be ONLY the posthumous SEH's get put in... cause there's going to be about 2/3 as many....

 

[rancke]

Supp 9 does say "The Gionetti class light cruiser is named exclusively for posthumous recipients of the Imperial Starburst for Extreme Heroism." To me that suggests awarding is a rare enough occasion even posthumously. How many 30kton Gionetti class light cruisers does the Imperium have? Enough of them?

As long as there are enough to furnish enough names, it doesn't matter how many more names there are.

As for the number of Gionettis, even a SWAG is fraught with sources of inaccuracy. But I'll have a go at it.

The Imperium has 320 regular fleets and 320 reserve fleets. There may or may not be duchy (subsector) navies, but I'd say that if they don't exist, then the reserve fleets will be quite big, and if they do exist, the reserve fleets will be much smaller. So I'll go with twice the number of ships calculated for just the regular fleets. As for planetary navies, let's ignore them for the time being.

The 320 fleets supposedly have 8-10 squadrons each, an average of 9 squadrons per fleet. However, I think some of the fleets are inactive (the way the 100th was just prior to 5FW), so I'll calculate with 300 active fleets.

The countermix in FFW implies roughly three CruRons for every BatRon plus some specialist squadrons (TankRons, AssRons, etc.), so I'll assume an average of two BatRons and six CruRons per fleet. That would give us 300*6 = 1800 CruRons.

But how many of those CruRons will be light cruisers? If the selection of 20,000-100,000T in FS is representative, it would be 1 in 8. That's very iffy, but if we accept that, we have 225 squadrons of light cruisers.

But how many different classes of light cruisers does the Imperium have? Three? Six? Nine? Twelve? Now we're really leaving the scintific behind and going into guessing territory. I'm going to select nine because it divides neatly up into the number of squadrons, but it could as well be three or fifteen. Anyway, that leaves us with 25 squadrons of Gionettis. Double that to account for Duchy/reserve fleets.

Squadrons seem to have 4-8 combat vessels apiece. I'm assuming that the norm is eight per squadron but that the norm is not always achieved. That would give us a bit less than 400 for 50 squadrons. Say 350-360.

But then we have to ask if any Gionettis have been mothballed or sold out of the service. All in all, these calculations are so riddled with uncertainties that they're almost useless. I will claim that they might be said to provide us with a ballpark figure, but that's all.

OTOH, even if there were ten times as many, I think that over a millenium the Imperium would have handed out enough posthumous SEHs to provided several thousand names even if they were strictly VC/CMH equivalents, don't you?


Hans