How big a deal is the Starburst for Extreme Heroism?

[Dagrill]

Hi,

Rorke's Drift was an exceptional case, not many armies ight to the last man last bullet and it was immediately after the disaster of Isandwhala (I may have spelt that incorrectly), so the Government needed to distract attention at home and inspire the troops.

As far as I'm aware the only living recipient of the VC was not expected to reciover from his wounds.

The rorkes drift analogy is probably a good one though for high tech imperial troops dealing with local rebellions, after all the imperium doesn't fight very many wars despite being surrounded by hostile powers.

I've always wondered where all the wars take place in the OTU...

Regards

david

As an historical example of my point, there were eleven Victoria Crosses awarded at the Battle of Rorke's Drift, a particularly hellish fight for both sides.

The majority of the recipients in that battle would never, EVER, have been made members of the peerage. They sure were heroes, but they weren't peerage material.

Incidentally, according to one source there have been 1357 Victoria Crosses awarded since 1856. (It might not be fully up-to-date with the current hostilities, but it's bound to be reasonably close.) Only three individuals had received two VCs apiece.

There were 19 double awards of the Congressional Medal of Honour, but a second medal has been forbidden for over 90 years.

 

[Dagrill]

Hans,

I love you, back in the 80's I created over 4,000 striker characters to flesh out
my fifth frontier war units by hand on paper, but that was easy compared to your efforts

Regards

David

Many years ago I played with a referee who did everything By the Book. If the rules said it, that's the way it was, even if it didn't fit with his plans.

We'd become billionaires and had become involved in the affairs of a small TL5 country on newly-opened Algine, and we decided we needed a few mercenaries. Say 600 to form a regiment, 300 to be the cadre of two native regiments, 100 for an artillery battery, and 100 for an airforce. So my character went to Porozlo and recruited according to the rules in Mercenary. It took a while, of course, and we had to skip a fortnight's recruiting now and again to "reset" the die roll penalties, but for the first fortnight, we got 6D+30 raw recruits, 5D+25 veterans, 4D+20 veteran offecers, and 4D+20 mercenaries, so it didn't take all that long. We cherry-picked the cream of the raw recruits and had our mercs in less than half a year, including a fair number of Flyers for our air force.

Peter, our referee, didn't mind us having a handful of mercenaries, but he thought 1100 was too many. But the rules said we could do it. So he told us we'd have to furnish him with stats for every mercenary we wanted to hire.

So one of the other players, Lars, wrote a small program for his Sinclair and generated all the recruits, veterans and officers. (I myself actually rolled up 130-odd mercenaries (Yes, I know)).

The results were interesting. We had one officer with Tactics-6 and a good crop of <Skill>-5s. I can't remember if we had any other Skill-6s, but we did have one with Instruction-5, which meant we could have him train people with other skills at level 4 up to Instruction-4, which would allow them to train the other recruits up to <Skill>-3 (Yes, I since found out that this may not be allowed, but we all thought it was (We never deliberately tried to cheat Peter)).

The guy with Tactics-6 was named Foxx Travis and there was a really tough sergeant who became A.B. Calvin. We named another dozen of the most outstanding. If Peter had asked us to name them all, he might have had better luck keeping the numbers down .


Hans

 

[Grognard]

In my view, you are more correct than Aramis. I've always played the SEH as if it were the CMH. Plus, it's very hard to get, statistically speaking.

Its actually pretty easy to get if you use the Bk5 rule that lets you sabotage your survival roll for Decoration....I have rolled several pilots who have recieved more than one SEH..;.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Hi,

Rorke's Drift was an exceptional case, not many armies ight to the last man last bullet and it was immediately after the disaster of Isandwhala (I may have spelt that incorrectly), so the Government needed to distract attention at home and inspire the troops.

Rorke's Drift was effectivly a PR exercise by the British Empire, althoug to be fair to those who where there they probably deserved their medals. It took considerebaly longer for the guy who actually desered the VC in the action to recieve it (Acting Assistant Commissary Dalton), and that was only after preasure from those who were there suggeting that he was the real hero of the action.

Also in the early days of the VC it was easier to earn one than say in WWII. By WWII you had effectivly single handidly win the war to be awwarded one (I exagerate but I'm sure you get my point).

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[Garyius2003]

I think something we are missing in the 3I is the sheer percentage of officers who are former enlisted. Our greatest number right now is likely the US Navy and Marine Corps who run about 5% each.

The Imperial system looks much more like 50%. Not many of them will make flag rank--that is for the high soc academy grads, but they make up a huge part of the system. Also, even the spaceman/privates are going to be much higher in terms of int and edu then what we saw when the awards were last given out in great numbers on earth, even as recently as the 1930s.

I think the boundry to the lowest portions of the noble class will be much easier to pass through in the 3I with the correct award.

"I read here that S/Sgt Jiuoisad from the 2/22/13th has earned the SEH for assuming command of what remained of his company and throwing back an entire battalion of mind rapers? Jeeves, have his application for a commission approved, and arrange for his domain knighthood to be awarded at the same time as his commission and his induction into the TAS. Make sure you have them all awarded here when the Duke is present on world--early morning while he is fresh is best. Later in the day sometimes he starts..."



I think Mongoose also started a new rule--one that has been hinted at before--success in officer promotion brings a knighthood.

Captain or Colonel Jones has been promoted to those ranks but doesn't come from the upper classes? Here is a knighthood. Not just to encourge the middle class Os, but to enable him to stand with his peers outside the military.

The military soap opera writer WEB Griffin observed that more important 40s-60s army business was done at the O Club than at the HQ buildings. I assume much the same is true for the entire 3I government system. Much easier to cut a broad deal on deployments or shipping supplies over a quiet four sided drink in the library at Countess Hhjjhgsds's dinner party. For that Col Jones needs to be there, and that takes a 'Sir' in front of his name.

 

[Hyphen]

In my view, you are more correct than Aramis. I've always played the SEH as if it were the CMH. Plus, it's very hard to get, statistically speaking.

Hi Ken! Actually, I found that an MT Navy PC, using the negative survival rule as a ositive DM for awards, and offsetting the negatives via Brownie Points, can get a SEH reasonably easily.

Of course, I mat have just been foolin' around min-maxing... (oh, shame on me! )

 

[Hyphen]

Much easier to cut a broad deal on deployments or shipping supplies over a quiet four sided drink in the library at Countess Hhjjhgsds's dinner party. For that Col Jones needs to be there, and that takes a 'Sir' in front of his name.

Oh, well put, sir! <applauds> And you've even thrown in a scenario nugget!

Hans, my guess is that you'll also be in favour of this version of "run by men, not laws"?

 

[Garyius2003]

The 3I has been around for 1100 years and has had computers for all that time. There are laws and regulations on every single thing in great and exact detail. Many of them are updated and exactly on point--jump procedures, ship building specs, combat procedures, medical screening, drive specs, airlock sealing. Some are not so followed--just about everything else on the knight and noble level.

So long as things are working well, no one is going to wonder how Count Hackosin managed to grow the starport on his assigned world from B to A and increased trade volume 250% and grew so very wealthy. Heck, the Sector Director of the Starport Authority shared a suite with his brother at university, and the current Subsector Director for Justice spent a very enjoyable season on Glisten with the Count making the social rounds, back when he was just the son of a Baron. 'Isn't it remarkable how the Count has lifted his branch of his family so well?'

"So 1/10 of one percent of the increased volume happened to attach itself to the Count's other business interests. Those self dealing regulations are so complex that the Count simply can't take time out of the good work he is doing to follow them all, Smithson. I also see that most of the rest of one percent has divided itself between the hard working non-noble managers on world and several subsector and sector families. It must just be the spread of a normal business cycle. Let's just let these accounting review reports ride sans action."

As opposed to maybe the volume went way down while he is playing those games, or the tri-dee show Marches Review! does a story linking the Count's shell company to the passing through the port of several ships of fast drugged and chained guest workers being exported to the Extents.

"Smithson, it is the Duke's pleasure that we compile a list of all possible charges that can be brought against the Count's different managers, regardless if they are knighted or not. I don't know if you have heard, but it turns out the Count was so upset when he learned what they were doing in his name, and that they were actually hiding some of the ill gotten profits in his accounts, that he slipped up while cleaning his sporting rifle and died. Less said there the better, and I understand the Duke is using his warrant to hold the title to avoid extra stress on the family..."

The SEH is one ticket to a knighthood and being admitted to that social circle. The other is clawing your way to a navy captain/colonel or above, or 3I authority deputy directorship, based on merit, and from there perhaps being noticed in the correct circles and promoted into real power with a small noble title for your children to build on with hard work and ability.

"Sir Henri, could we have a moment of your time out on the patio...this unofficial, you know, of course you know. We have noticed that your base is shipping some very heavy supplies out to that forward base... we are lobbying right now for an increase in the fueling depot size and skimmers at Beta Sigma Highport, and your chartered ship and some escorts would drain the system coming on top of the normal trade there. Would it be much of a bother to route the ship that way and have it stuck in orbit for an extra week or two? That fueling failure would look very good in the Domain budget request...Of course, James here is able to loan you some of those new streamlined Gazelles--the Fire class is it?--to help escort over the new route. We can have the additional escorts jump here from Adm Baron Sir James's base by the end of the month..."

And of course a few credits will happen to stick once you make Baronnet, and help your family out with expenses, but that just makes sense. The fief income is just barely enough to support a small noble family, and hosting a few real parties or sending the children for a good education with the right sort of fellow students followed by a tour to properly ground them takes real money.

The SEH winner's introduction to that world would be a little more guided. An officer training class or two, then Aide training, at every step making sure he knows shots and cursing are only done in the BOQ and he learns all 5 of the most important dances, then brought into the social whirl with a dress uniform and the SEH front and center. A new officer of such poise and ability surely must be given his own CE or courier to prove himself before we give him a destroyer or shore department head tour.

That works out, and he is given a cruiser and married into one of the correct families, and now there is an admiral or battleship commander to send out on fleet actions that you know will overcome his fear and press the attack.

Oh, well put, sir! <applauds> And you've even thrown in a scenario nugget!

Hans, my guess is that you'll also be in favour of this version of "run by men, not laws"?

 

[Peter Newman]

I think something we are missing in the 3I is the sheer percentage of officers who are former enlisted. Our greatest number right now is likely the US Navy and Marine Corps who run about 5% each.

The Imperial system looks much more like 50%. Not many of them will make flag rank--that is for the high soc academy grads, but they make up a huge part of the system.

But there's no penalty to officer promotion rolls for being a maverick. Many and many a year ago I had an character who had been in the Navy. I decided that both his mothers had also been in the Imperial Navy (Flight) but that they had been enlisted. Then I rolled them up. I got both of them all the way from E1 to O10, one of them had earned a SEH while an Engineering Admiral, and both had high noble titles. Suddenly my officer wasn't just a Baron in his own right he was the son of a Duchess and a Marquis.

If not for it being overshadowed by his strong personality traits [1] my pilot would have made a name for himself just for his parentage.

[1] Certifiable.

 

[rancke]

I think something we are missing in the 3I is the sheer percentage of officers who are former enlisted. Our greatest number right now is likely the US Navy and Marine Corps who run about 5% each.

The Imperial system looks much more like 50%. Not many of them will make flag rank--that is for the high soc academy grads, but they make up a huge part of the system.

This assumes that the character generation system accurately reflects the Imperial system. Since doing so creates some rather unbelievable results (having two Imperial knights or nobles in each average sized school class is only the first of these), I prefer to think of it as merely a generic system meant to apply to multiple generic militaries and to produce mainly PC-type characters.

(Yes, that does mean that I think the practice of many Traveller writers for over 30 years of using the CGS to create NPCs without vetting them afterwards is a mistake; a mistake that has led to some extremely unlikely NPCs.)


Hans

 

[aramis]

But there's no penalty to officer promotion rolls for being a maverick. Many and many a year ago I had an character who had been in the Navy. I decided that both his mothers had also been in the Imperial Navy (Flight) but that they had been enlisted. Then I rolled them up. I got both of them all the way from E1 to O10, one of them had earned a SEH while an Engineering Admiral, and both had high noble titles. Suddenly my officer wasn't just a Baron in his own right he was the son of a Duchess and a Marquis.

If not for it being overshadowed by his strong personality traits [1] my pilot would have made a name for himself just for his parentage.

[1] Certifiable.

first... the penalty for mavericks is increased aging saves and the 7 term limit, which make maverick flag officers more rare, because most mavericks won't be first termers.

2nd, Academy honors graduates start a rank ahead, and thus effectively a term ahead of their academy peers.

And many of your Traveller PCs have been certifiable.... Trier, Sigrid, The Doc, Fred....

 

[McPerth]

About the deal SEH represents, I posted that on another thread where it was also being discussed:

From MgT LBB:2 HG, page 7, under the SEH:

Generals, Aldmirals and Subsector Dukes will all salute the man, or woman, who has shown the outstanding heroic qualitites necessary to win the award.

I guess he will be able to obtain gossip and probably even lodging free in most those bases as a guest. If the base knows he will come, they probably will give him honors according to his rank and award, but little more officially. Of course, extraoficially, he could obtain more in the way of asistence, as long as it needn't to be written in papers.

In MTU (specific):

When someone receives the SEH, aside from the obvious honor it means, he/she also obtains:

-Honorary promotion* of one grade after retiring (as told in MTM, page 49)

-Is kinghted in the Domain order or in Order of Emperor Guard (if he was not a knight or higher noble).

-A SEH cruiser (aka Gionetti class)(MT:RS page 81, IIRC it's also described somewhere in CT, but I cannot give exact reference) is comissioned somewhere in the Imperium and named after him/her. That cruiser will not be decomissioned while he/she is alive, and he/she will be honorary Capitain of the Cruiser for life, should it cross into his/her way (after all, Imperium is huge...).

*This honorary promotion is counted for mustering out rolls and any use rank may have (such as enrolling on a mercenary unit)

With regards to the SEH-class of cruisers, they're named after posthumous recipients and not every recipient.

Never read that it was only named after posthumous recipients...

 

[aramis]

The salute bit in MgT is an MgT innovation, based squarely upon making it comparable to the US MoH... (and the three MoH winners I've met, two being persons I knew for years, absolutely hated the being saluted bit.) It probably is not so in the actual OTU.

 

[rancke]

ISTR that the percentage of characters with SEHs produced by the character generation system is comparatively high -- a lot higher than VC and Congressional Medal recipients -- though I can't recall the exact figure.


Hans

 

[BlackBat242]

This assumes that the character generation system accurately reflects the Imperial system. Since doing so creates some rather unbelievable results (having two Imperial knights or nobles in each average sized school class is only the first of these), I prefer to think of it as merely a generic system meant to apply to multiple generic militaries and to produce mainly PC-type characters.

(Yes, that does mean that I think the practice of many Traveller writers for over 30 years of using the CGS to create NPCs without vetting them afterwards is a mistake; a mistake that has led to some extremely unlikely NPCs.) Hans

Which is precisely the thing we keep forgetting in Traveller.

Gary Gygax made very sure that the original rules for D&D (and the rules for AD&D [1E]) specified that PCs were very unusual... that the vast majority of the populace (and indeed the vast majority of trained fighters, etc) were much less than were the PCs... even trained fighters (troops, men-at-arms) were 0-level (or 1st-level at best)... while PCs started at 1st-level!


In the same way, the vast majority of ImpNavy/ImpMarine/ImpArmy enlisted and officers do not have the stuff of PCs... they don't "stick their necks out", and thus don't get those rapid promotions and bravery awards.

In fact, most of them leave the service after only 1 or 2 terms and go to work at the local factory (etc), and never even think about trying for military retirement... much less to "go Travelling" about the stars having adventures!


Therefore, the PCs are already by definition exceptional, and the chargen system is designed to reflect this!


I see no problem using chargen for NPCs as long as you keep that in mind... you are generating major NPCs, those who run organizations and ships, and who affect events over large parts of the whole planet (or even subsector)!

The lesser NPCs should reflect what is in the "1001 characters" book instead: skilled but not really exceptional. These might aid (or fight) the PCs (or nasty NPCs) IF their own interests are involved, but no more than that.

Background characters should have 2-3 total skills/levels, and prefer to hide (or call for help) rather than fight the PCs (or nasty NPCs) or aid their activities.

 

[Leitz]

Which is precisely the thing we keep forgetting in Traveller.

Gary Gygax made very sure that the original rules for D&D (and the rules for AD&D [1E]) specified that PCs were very unusual... that the vast majority of the populace (and indeed the vast majority of trained fighters, etc) were much less than were the PCs... even trained fighters (troops, men-at-arms) were 0-level (or 1st-level at best)... while PCs started at 1st-level!

Exactly! Not all businesses make MCr monthly but PCs are doing things based on higher risk and searching for higher rewards. Like the old military motto, "Who dares, wins", people/PCs/NPCs grow and succeed based on effort.

There is a corollary saying that the most growth comes with the highest number of failures that do not lead to death. The more you try, the more mistakes you will make but the more often you risk success. Tom Peters, the management guru, says that successful companies have a "bias for action".

If I wanted to grow at a 1-2% rate I'd stick to real life. Heck, I grow more than that in real life because I've integrated risk management and goal setting from my game playing into real life.

There is a vast difference between the "Monty Haul" game and the "High Reward" game. In the first, whatever happens, happens. Dice rule. What's the point of thinking?

But when the DM sets out a challenge and you have to figure it out, and you have to attack the problem from a variety of angles and with a diverse skill set, then it becomes fun! The you get some large sum of resources as a prize until even bigger problem sets come along. At that point you risk the MCr you just earned to go for BCr.

So, yeah, PCs are unusual. It's a big universe and there are lots of things to do.

 

[McPerth]

But the recruiting system shown in LBB4:mercenary (or in AV for MT) rates the recruits for their terms and if they were generated by Basic CharGen or Advanced Chargen, so hinting all of them are generated by the tables.

I agree, though, that the target numbers for those extra NPCs should be higher, representing less daring people (after all, in the Army Basic CharGen tables, most will end as officers, as over 60% promote each term with a 5+, while you will always recruit more enlistees than officers, and I guess we understand that the Army members that reach officer rank are a minority).

 

[Leitz]

Not sure how it is in the Imperium but *I* sure didn't mind a term or two to get away from where I was!

Actually, I wanted to see England. Took me a while but I finally got there. The life lessons I learned in the military have stood me well but that wasn't what I went in for.

 

[Carlobrand]

The salute bit in MgT is an MgT innovation, based squarely upon making it comparable to the US MoH... (and the three MoH winners I've met, two being persons I knew for years, absolutely hated the being saluted bit.) It probably is not so in the actual OTU.

On the other hand, it's significant enough that there's a class of light cruisers named after recipients: Gionetti, Supplement 9. Not destroyers - light cruisers. Whatever the statistical element, the award appears to have been intended to be a remarkable achievement.

 

[aramis]

On the other hand, it's significant enough that there's a class of light cruisers named after recipients: Gionetti, Supplement 9. Not destroyers - light cruisers. Whatever the statistical element, the award appears to have been intended to be a remarkable achievement.

Note that's for POSTHUMOUS recipients, not all recipients.

Comments: The Gionetri class light cruiser is named exclusively for posthumous recipients of the Imperial Starburst for Extreme Heroism.

That means, only those awarded it for actions leading to their heroic death. Mind you, that's an award subcategory not open to PC's, and a class that's not that uncommon.

It's likely there are hundreds, if not thousands, of members of the Gionetti class, and probably 1 in a hundred eligibles gets a ship named for them... if even that many.